The best blackjack game in America?
August 1st, 2010 at 5:58:53 PM
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The Wizard's survey of blackjack games in San Diego lists the Barona's single-deck game as having a house edge of .01% with 3-5 players at the table. Even with just 1-2 players, the edge is still just .12%.
The page does mention that they only deal two rounds or about 18 cards (depending on how many players), so it seems like counting at the game is out of the question. Still, for pure basic strategy players (such as myself) this is easily the best blackjack game I've heard of here in the US--if the casino, in fact, still offers it.
For those who happen to have been to the Barona recently, do they still offer this game? What are the table minimums?
The page does mention that they only deal two rounds or about 18 cards (depending on how many players), so it seems like counting at the game is out of the question. Still, for pure basic strategy players (such as myself) this is easily the best blackjack game I've heard of here in the US--if the casino, in fact, still offers it.
For those who happen to have been to the Barona recently, do they still offer this game? What are the table minimums?
"I believe I've passed the age/of consciousness and righteous rage/I've found that just surviving was a noble fight...
I once believed in causes too/I had my pointless point of view/And life went on no matter who was wrong or right..." --Billy Joel
August 1st, 2010 at 7:38:26 PM
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Is this game dealt face up, or can the players handle the cards in CA? If it's face up, counting would help for sure. Even a small positive count would swing it to a +EV game on the second of the two hands/deck.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
August 1st, 2010 at 7:53:37 PM
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I also want to put in the vote currently for Wheeling Island DD game. It features S17, Late Surrender, DAS, Double on any two cards... the only thing is no RSA, but according to the calculator on WOO, it's got .12% house edge optimal, .2% realistic. However, penetration is at least 75% and the cards are dealt face up from a shoe... this game is changing shortly to H17, but until then, it's an excellent option.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
August 2nd, 2010 at 4:30:09 AM
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The Barona game is dealt face down. With 3-5 players, which is usually the case, they deal 2 rounds and then shuffle. If you get a full table then you'll see about 18 cards after the first round, which is enough to swing the odds in your favor moderately by counting. They watch the game carefully, so don't get too aggressive.
I just checked the July 2010 Current Blackjack News. Since that is a paid subscription service I won't say where, but it indicates a double exposure game with a 0.80% player advantage. It does not indicate any better conventional blackjack game than the single-deck Barona game.
I just checked the July 2010 Current Blackjack News. Since that is a paid subscription service I won't say where, but it indicates a double exposure game with a 0.80% player advantage. It does not indicate any better conventional blackjack game than the single-deck Barona game.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 2nd, 2010 at 7:32:39 AM
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Actually, I'm pretty sure with the Barona game if the burn card shown is a five, the odds are already slightly in the player's favor. Math people, am I correct in that assumption?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
August 2nd, 2010 at 7:48:04 AM
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I would like to nominate the single deck game at Mystic Lake Resort and Casino for Best BJ game in America.
They've been adjusting the rules as the game has been rolled out. Here are the house rules effective on 7/29/10, when I last played the game:
1 deck
H17
DAS
D 9-11 only
split to 4 hands
RSA
late surrender
3:2 BJ
~75% penetration (2 hands/shuffle)
$25 min, $300 max
total HA of .0933%
Further, all cards are dealt face up. So sitting at third base gives an awful lot of info, even in the first of the two hands. Also, they quasi-encourage counting. I've been pretty blatant about it, both in actions and in conversation, and not had a problem at this or any of their other tables.
They've been adjusting the rules as the game has been rolled out. Here are the house rules effective on 7/29/10, when I last played the game:
1 deck
H17
DAS
D 9-11 only
split to 4 hands
RSA
late surrender
3:2 BJ
~75% penetration (2 hands/shuffle)
$25 min, $300 max
total HA of .0933%
Further, all cards are dealt face up. So sitting at third base gives an awful lot of info, even in the first of the two hands. Also, they quasi-encourage counting. I've been pretty blatant about it, both in actions and in conversation, and not had a problem at this or any of their other tables.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
August 2nd, 2010 at 11:01:39 AM
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Quote: rdw4potusI would like to nominate the single deck game at Mystic Lake Resort and Casino for Best BJ game in America....
My house edge calculator comes up with a house edge of 0.09326% (optimal) and 0.28297% (0.24496%). These figures were corrected to reflect late surrender. I show that isn't quite as good for the non-counter as the Barona game, which allows surrender, double any first two cards, but does not have re-split aces, for a house edge of -0.03026% (optimal) and 0.12144% (realistic).
However, the more liberal counting conditions would indeed make your game more countable.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 2nd, 2010 at 11:14:56 AM
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I think you had late surrender toggled off when you ran this through the calculator. I did the same thing to get the .0933%, but had surrender on (late surrender is allowed in this game). Your calculator is fantastic, BTW...
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
August 2nd, 2010 at 12:25:44 PM
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Thanks for the compliment and the correction. I just editted my post.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 4th, 2010 at 12:28:10 PM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 4th, 2010 at 4:51:58 PM
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That's interesting that they allow you to double after splitting Aces, but not resplit. If that's the case, would there be any scenario in which the correct play is to double on soft 12 (two aces)?
Also, for the Wizard, or anyone else who's seen it--did you happen to notice what the table minimums were for the single-deck game at the Barona?
Also, for the Wizard, or anyone else who's seen it--did you happen to notice what the table minimums were for the single-deck game at the Barona?
"I believe I've passed the age/of consciousness and righteous rage/I've found that just surviving was a noble fight...
I once believed in causes too/I had my pointless point of view/And life went on no matter who was wrong or right..." --Billy Joel
August 4th, 2010 at 5:45:12 PM
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Why?
No seriously! Why?
Why is this one particular Indian casino offering such a good deal? Indian casinos are not generally known for offering good deals. There are nowhere near as many casinos on various Indian reservations in the area as there are casinos in Vegas, so its not really the competition forcing them to do this.
What is it that the casino actually gains? Notoriety?
No seriously! Why?
Why is this one particular Indian casino offering such a good deal? Indian casinos are not generally known for offering good deals. There are nowhere near as many casinos on various Indian reservations in the area as there are casinos in Vegas, so its not really the competition forcing them to do this.
What is it that the casino actually gains? Notoriety?
August 4th, 2010 at 6:39:36 PM
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Quote: OneAngryDwarfThat's interesting that they allow you to double after splitting Aces, but not resplit. If that's the case, would there be any scenario in which the correct play is to double on soft 12 (two aces)?
Here is the Wizard's page on when you should double or double for less after splitting aces when that is allowed, but you can't take a regular hit:
https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix20.html
Note that the hands you'd double for full are a bit different than the ones you'd double on with a normal soft hand; if I'm correct that's because in some cases normally there's more room for improvement by the potential of drawing more cards by hitting, but if you can't take more than one additional card you should go ahead and make the full double if that has positive EV (and is more than the EV of standing).
If you run onto a casino/table that allows doubling AND hitting (but not resplitting) split aces (or an unfortunate one that does not allow splitting aces in the first place), I'm not sure what the proper hit/double strategy would be for a soft 12 (and whether or not it would vary by the number of decks and/or what the dealer does on soft 17). If hitting (but not doubling or splitting/resplitting) is allowed, obviously you'd take a hit with a soft 12.
August 5th, 2010 at 6:33:27 AM
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I agree, that is an interesting strategy, but probably not worth driving up to St. Ignace for.
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The "double for less" is just another way of saying take a free hit.
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The "double for less" is just another way of saying take a free hit.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
August 5th, 2010 at 9:44:06 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffWhy?
No seriously! Why?
Why is this one particular Indian casino offering such a good deal? Indian casinos are not generally known for offering good deals. There are nowhere near as many casinos on various Indian reservations in the area as there are casinos in Vegas, so its not really the competition forcing them to do this.
What is it that the casino actually gains? Notoriety?
Well I would say that there is a fair amount of competition among the Indian casinos in SoCal. Looking at the map in my American Casino Guide, Barona is one of the closest with Viejas not too far away from them...a few miles to the north there's also Pauma, Harrah's Rincon, Pala, and Valley View...and Syucan is just 10 miles east of San Diego proper. So yes, not quite as much competition as in Vegas, and they're far more spread out geographically, but San Diegans still have a lot of choices as to where to spend their gaming dollars.
My guess is that by offering such a game Barona is trying to attract "serious" gamblers, who want a game where they can handle the cards without having to put up with 6:5 garbage games. That must be a pretty small niche though, since the next level up in players are card counters...which they apparently strongly discourage.
"I believe I've passed the age/of consciousness and righteous rage/I've found that just surviving was a noble fight...
I once believed in causes too/I had my pointless point of view/And life went on no matter who was wrong or right..." --Billy Joel
August 5th, 2010 at 10:31:16 AM
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Quote: OneAngryDwarf
Also, for the Wizard, or anyone else who's seen it--did you happen to notice what the table minimums were for the single-deck game at the Barona?
The minimum on the single-deck game is $100.
Regarding why they offer the game, the Barona tries hard to have the most liberal game rules in the San Diego area. They used to hire me to certify that they did, and Bob Dancer for video poker.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 8th, 2010 at 3:52:55 PM
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I know it doesn't fall under the subject heading, but I would like to nominate the games in Lima (Peru) casinos. Six deck, S17, with early surrender against a 10 (no hole card taken). I think many other ex-U.S. casinos have similar rules. A 0.15-0.20% house edge for the basic strategy player. Plus, you can play for peanuts (while they serve you peanuts).
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
August 9th, 2010 at 6:40:14 AM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 31st, 2010 at 3:17:43 PM
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What about the casinos on this list?
On the list above there are 3 casinos that show 0.0% house edge. I would really like to be able to play at a Harrah's property on the strip, and if black jack at the Imperial Palace is 0.0%, then I'm there!! Would I use the basic strategy for 4 or more decks, found here:?
Thanks for the great tips and tools!
On the list above there are 3 casinos that show 0.0% house edge. I would really like to be able to play at a Harrah's property on the strip, and if black jack at the Imperial Palace is 0.0%, then I'm there!! Would I use the basic strategy for 4 or more decks, found here:?
Thanks for the great tips and tools!
August 31st, 2010 at 6:39:15 PM
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Hmm...wish it were so, but those are typos. Sorry!Quote: m8kmidaWhat about the casinos on this list?
https://wizardofvegas.com/guides/blackjack-survey/?sort=hedge&dir=asc
On the list above there are 3 casinos that show 0.0% house edge. I would really like to be able to play at a Harrah's property on the strip, and if black jack at the Imperial Palace is 0.0%, then I'm there!! Would I use the basic strategy for 4 or more decks, found here: https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/strategy/4deck.html ?
Thanks for the great tips and tools!
Wizard: please correct?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
September 1st, 2010 at 8:41:41 AM
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Quote: teddysHmm...wish it were so, but those are typos. Sorry!
Wizard: please correct?
It would be great if 0.0% was correct, wouldn't it? Using the Wizard's house edge calculator and list of rule variations and their effect on the edge, that would be close to correct given the rules mentioned - if the surrender was early surrender!
