Do I have a lawsuit? (illegally detained and handcuffed)
Quote: kewljQuote: PaigowdanNo. What is often dropped or denied from the view and position of AP players is that game play rules of the casino were indeed broken, - hence the back off occurring. This is true, even if no state or federal laws were broken in the process.
Good grief Dan, are you still trying to sell that 'secret, non published rules, but everyone knows it's against the rules' concept? :/
I got news for you, these rules aren't secret, - and it's darn well known by all going in what is a go and a no-go. Cover plays, disguises, false id's, flat betting, back offs, customers for Bob N. - you name it, - everything on this subject states that AP play might actually not be approved play in casinos, that obviously some game-play rules had been broken, - and you'd have to be in deep denial not to see all this, no less take counter measures or consider hiring lawyers.
Quote: kewljYou seem to be the only member of this forum, even among other members that work or have ties to the industry, that sees it that way.
No I'm not, - not by a long shot, though I am alone in verbalizing it: There seems to be Plenty of people in the industry tapping players on their shoulders enough to make it an issue, apparently.
Quote: Paigowdan... everything on this subject states that AP play might actually not be approved play in casinos...
1) AP Play is nothing more than using your brain and the information available to everyone else at the table. You're thus claiming that using your brain not only not allowed, but is a "non secret" rule of the casino.
2) Again, NO RULES were broken.
p.s. The "back off" wasn't a back off. They were just trying to ID him AFTER he was done playing, not even at the tables (and I'm referencing thread specifically). They had no right to detain/kidnap him to keep him from leaving the establishment. Again, this is no different than a 7-11 clerk demanding my ID for a candy bar, then me saying "no thanks, I'd like to leave" and them having private security handcuff me and take me to his back office. It's illegal.
Quote: Romes1) AP Play is nothing more than using your brain and the information available to everyone else at the table. You're thus claiming that using your brain not only not allowed, but is a "non secret" rule of the casino.
I've been very clear that it really isn't "thinking" or "thinking intelligently" that gets you 86-ed out of a gambling hall, but that it is breaking casino rules on game play that gets you 86-ed - game play rules that you honestly can't claim with a straight face you were clueless about. If you can figure out the running count, you've also figured out that it might not always be so well-received.
Quote: Romes2) Again, NO RULES were broken.
Yes they were, - obviously in the view of the people who run the joint. Any denial about this on the part of the player doesn't affect the management's decision to take an action. The casino took action not because they though the player's tie was ugly, but because, in their determination, their game play rules were deemed violated.
Quote: Romesp.s. The "back off" wasn't a back off. They were just trying to ID him AFTER he was done playing, not even at the tables (and I'm referencing thread specifically).
Okay. They waited until the player packed up, then they confronted the player.
Quote: RomesThey had no right to detain/kidnap him to keep him from leaving the establishment.
This is true. But I wouldn't call a 30-minute confrontation demanding ID a kidnapping. I believe the OP did not walk out but responded to the "Hey - you!" and stayed.
Quote: RomesAgain, this is no different than a 7-11 clerk demanding my ID for a candy bar, then me saying "no thanks, I'd like to leave" and them having private security handcuff me and take me to his back office. It's illegal.
I beg to differ:
1. I doubt a 7-11 clerk would need or ask for ID for a candy bar. Now, a bottle of Wild Irish Rose or a pack of smokes might necessitate ID-ing, and this would be legitimate. I get ID'ed at convenience stores for cigarettes; I just show them my driver's license and AARP card.
2. I doubt a 7-11 would detain or backroom you for not showing ID to purchase a candy bar. And yeah, that would be illegal.
The player was confronted because he was an AP player; he broke game play or house rules on it in doing this (obviously); he was doing a bit more than "just thinking about it intelligently" by taking monetary action to parallel the count (obviously), was caught doing this (obviously). He was confronted and asked for ID, as the casino wanted to know who the guy was. I do not view this as a life catastrophe: the OP gave it a shot, and it just didn't work out too well. And no, I am not buying the argument that "the player was just using his intelligence to play intelligently" when these scenes happen; denial of the risks and possible repercussions, and the resulting storms and screams, upsets and hurt feelings don't seem astute to me.
Some AP players lead more successful careers, and many don't.
Quote: bdc42not that I'm blowing my own horn, but I run surveillance in a fairly large tribal casino and the last time I checked, and I check every day (oceans 13). there is nowhere it says I must keep video for a year! 30 days is the minimum for a crime. not a year ( we keep important video forever by the way). I would defiantly keep this video , as I'm sure he is in the wrong, but even if he wasn't I'd download the video (everything is digital now, not tape). I 'm trying to save this guy some money, the casino didn't do anything wrong and pursuing it will only cost money.
You might want to check out the 25CFR543.21 (e) (2) Suspected crimes, suspicious activity, or detentions by security agents discovered within the initial retention period must be copied and retained for a time period, not less than one year.
The 543s are for class II gaming but if you have any class II (Bingo, etc.) games on the floor then according to the NIGC, your TICS must be updated to these MICS which includes the video retention guidelines. As long as you are keeping them longer than that you should be fine. If one year requirement is not stated in you policy manual then you might want to update that. Of course that is assuming you are following the 25CFR543 MICS.
Besides, they really have no right to DEMAND ID. Extremely few civilians have that "right" and the power to exercise it without allowing the subject to step back.Quote: RomesThe "back off" wasn't a back off. They were just trying to ID him AFTER he was done playing, not even at the tables (and I'm referencing thread specifically). They had no right to detain/kidnap him to keep him from leaving the establishment. Again, this is no different than a 7-11 clerk demanding my ID for a candy bar, then me saying "no thanks, I'd like to leave" and them having private security handcuff me and take me to his back office. It's illegal.
Quote: PaigowdanI beg to differ:
1. I doubt a 7-11 clerk would need or ask for ID for a candy bar. Now, a bottle of Wild Irish Rose or a pack of smokes might necessitate ID-ing, and this would be legitimate. I get ID'ed at convenience stores for cigarettes; I just show them my driver's license and AARP card.
2. I doubt a 7-11 would detain or backroom you for not showing ID to purchase a candy bar. And yeah, that would be illegal.
The player was confronted because he was an AP player
Confronted is fine. So is escorted out. Detained is not. You say you "beg to differ" but in reality you agree that someone who is not suspected of breaking any laws (vs. "house rules") cannot be lawfully detained. There is an awful lot of case law on what constitutes "false imprisonment."
I would argue that "we can do this the hard way or the easy way" is an implied threat of force, which turned into actual force after the OP declined, and that every action carried out by the OP thereafter was under duress. I don't know what legal basis they had to detain him. If he had been suspected of shoplifting, that's one thing, but being suspected of card counting isn't equivalent at all because "shoplifting" and "card counting" aren't equivalent.
Quote: PaigowdanI've been very clear that it really isn't "thinking" or "thinking intelligently" that gets you 86-ed out of a gambling hall, but that it is breaking casino rules on game play that gets you 86-ed - game play rules that you honestly can't claim with a straight face you were clueless about. If you can figure out the running count, you've also figured out that it might not always be so well-received.
Yes they were, - obviously in the view of the people who run the joint. Any denial about this on the part of the player doesn't affect the management's decision to take an action. The casino took action not because they though the player's tie was ugly, but because, in their determination, their game play rules were deemed violated.
Okay. They waited until the player packed up, then they confronted the player.
This is true. But I wouldn't call a 30-minute confrontation demanding ID a kidnapping. I believe the OP did not walk out but responded to the "Hey - you!" and stayed.
I beg to differ:
1. I doubt a 7-11 clerk would need or ask for ID for a candy bar. Now, a bottle of Wild Irish Rose or a pack of smokes might necessitate ID-ing, and this would be legitimate. I get ID'ed at convenience stores for cigarettes; I just show them my driver's license and AARP card.
2. I doubt a 7-11 would detain or backroom you for not showing ID to purchase a candy bar. And yeah, that would be illegal.
The player was confronted because he was an AP player; he broke game play or house rules on it in doing this (obviously); he was doing a bit more than "just thinking about it intelligently" by taking monetary action to parallel the count (obviously), was caught doing this (obviously). He was confronted and asked for ID, as the casino wanted to know who the guy was. I do not view this as a life catastrophe: the OP gave it a shot, and it just didn't work out too well. And no, I am not buying the argument that "the player was just using his intelligence to play intelligently" when these scenes happen; denial of the risks and possible repercussions, and the resulting storms and screams, upsets and hurt feelings don't seem astute to me.
Some AP players lead more successful careers, and many don't.
I don't feel like editing =p, so in order:
- You're saying he broke a game rule. Okay, what game rule did he break? Where is this rule posted? How can they tell when people break this rule? What happens when they think someone is breaking this rule, but they're not? Is the player then able some recourse against the incorrect action?
- See first response. What rule was broken?
- If he broke a rule while playing a game, why would they let him continue to keep playing and try to confront him later? Why would a casino let a player breaking a rule keep breaking a rule? I've never seen any casino personnel see someone break a rule and not immediately stop it/take action.
- I don't care if it's 60 seconds. If you ILLEGALLY detain me then my rights were violated. I don't care if it's 60 seconds, 5 minutes, 30 minutes, or 2 weeks. You violated the rights that I have and are supposed to be protected. That, is actually breaking a "rule."
- I doubt a casino would ask for ID when I'm trying to leave a casino, but it happens. It doesn't matter either way. If you're trying to buy liquor and the clerk asks for ID, and you say you don't have it, then they again can't have private security handcuff and detain you in his back office.
- He was confronted because they didn't know who he was; that much is clear from the story. They didn't ask him "Hey, are you an AP?!?!" They said "Are you (this person)?" He didn't have to (and shouldn't have) stopped to talk to them at all. He did nothing illegal and had every right to leave the private establishment on his own will. Casinos certainly do have the right to ask anyone to leave their private establishment, but they are not the police. They do not have the power of arrest unless an actual crime has been committed, such as my power to a citizens arrest. No crime committed, no demanding ID or detaining. If a player refuses to show ID, which is a rule to get in to their establishment, then they aren't allowed in, but not showing ID does NOT give a casino the right to DETAIN you.
Quote: PaiGowDan2. I doubt a 7-11 would detain or backroom you for not showing ID to purchase a candy bar. And yeah, that would be illegal.
That is precisely what they did. A ridiculous ID request and then a detention for not producing it. They're just a private establishment, nothing more.
I AP, but I don't do it for monetary reasons (otherwise I'd quit my day job). I do it because I love the game, mathematics, and I love winning (brothers make you competitive). I'm going to be entertained by their game, like every other guest, and I'm using my brain to play to the best of my ability and have fun, not burn their casino to the ground... Money is just a way to keep score.
Quote: MathExtremistConfronted is fine. So is escorted out. Detained is not. You say you "beg to differ" but in reality you agree that someone who is not suspected of breaking any laws (vs. "house rules") cannot be lawfully detained. There is an awful lot of case law on what constitutes "false imprisonment."
The "I beg to differ" applies to the analogy which I felt took too much license, a bit over the top: being backroomed at a 7-11 for not showing ID on a Candy bar purchase.
Detention is unacceptable and illegal. Being confronted and asked for ID is not a major issue, and aside from a Police visit (which was unnecessary, punitive and hostile as no crime occurred), is basically the impression of the scenario I got here.
Quote: MEI would argue that "we can do this the hard way or the easy way" is an implied threat of force, which turned into actual force after the OP declined, and that every action carried out by the OP thereafter was under duress. I don't know what legal basis they had to detain him.
I felt they had no real reason.
Quote: MEIf he had been suspected of shoplifting, that's one thing, but being suspected of card counting isn't equivalent at all because "shoplifting" and "card counting" aren't equivalent.
Yes, agree.
Quote: Paigowdan
This is true. But I wouldn't call a 30-minute confrontation demanding ID a kidnapping.
Well, you might not call it kidnapping, but by the letter of the law and legal definition...IT IS. At least it is on Non-Indian land. And that is really the key to everything in this thread. The OP stated that security escorted him off the floor to a security room and then placed him in handcuffs. In a non-Indian casino this is a clear case of kidnapping, illegal arrest and detainment. It's actually a clear case of that on Indian land too, but one you won't win. :/
Someone mentioned "damages" earlier, as in the OP didn't have any real damages. That's not true. You don't need to be beaten on video, with broken bones and bloody noses to have damages and have a winnable case. Many lawyers would take this case (involving a non-Indian casino). In Las Vegas, Bob N would likely take this case and not require a huge retainer.
Fighting and winning these cases is important. It is how these left-over thug mentality, goons, learn that these kind of actions are not legal and will no longer be tolerated. In Vegas, we have made great strides in this area in the last 15 years, because of just such cases and it's why we see fewer and fewer back-rooming and more 'polite' backoffs. Casinos have right to protect their games and refuse your action. They do not have a right to illegally detain a patron, who has broken no law. Newer jurisdictions like Maryland and some others are still going through this learning the legal process, but they will get there.
Unfortunately, Indian casinos are immune and just don't have to abide by the REAL legal laws and process of this country, unless something escalates to murder. Despite what our Indian casino 'ambassador' on this site says, this is precisely why I don't play Indian casinos, and I can't for the life of me, understand why others do.
So to The OP, stabworld, I would say, you have a case, but because it involves an Indian Casino, it is not a winnable case. Forget it and move on. Chalk it up to lesson learned: Play Indian Casinos at your own risk.
Quote: kewljDespite what our Indian casino 'ambassador' on this site says, this is precisely why I don't play Indian casinos, and I can't for the life of me, understand why others do.
Because they're local, that's why. The nearest
non Indian is 150 miles away, why would I drive all
that way when I have 3 less than an hour from here.
Quote: EvenBobBecause they're local, that's why. The nearest
non Indian is 150 miles away, why would I drive all
that way when I have 3 less than an hour from here.
That's fine. I understand that EvenBob. Players should just know that they are playing at their own risk and basically have no rights, nor recourse.
Quote: RomesThese are tribal police, not real police officers.
Commit a crime in tribal land and explain that to them...
Quote: EvenBobBecause they're local, that's why. The nearest non Indian is 150 miles away, why would I drive all that way when I have 3 less than an hour from here.
... and most of the time, for most of the players, it isn't a problem.
Unfortunately, when things do go bad, they go really bad.
My hackles go up when the reservation, the county, the casino all have the same name. It usually turns out OK.
I legitimately worry if the tribal police are casino security. I really like casino security's jurisdiction to end at the driveway, for some reason.
Quote: kewljWell, you might not call it kidnapping, but by the letter of the law and legal definition...IT IS. At least it is on Non-Indian land. And that is really the key to everything in this thread. The OP stated that security escorted him off the floor to a security room and then placed him in handcuffs. In a non-Indian casino this is a clear case of kidnapping, illegal arrest and detainment. It's actually a clear case of that on Indian land too, but one you won't win. :/
Someone mentioned "damages" earlier, as in the OP didn't have any real damages. That's not true. You don't need to be beaten on video, with broken bones and bloody noses to have damages and have a winnable case. Many lawyers would take this case (involving a non-Indian casino). In Las Vegas, Bob N would likely take this case and not require a huge retainer.
Fighting and winning these cases is important. It is how these left-over thug mentality, goons, learn that these kind of actions are not legal and will no longer be tolerated. In Vegas, we have made great strides in this area in the last 15 years, because of just such cases and it's why we see fewer and fewer back-rooming and more 'polite' backoffs. Casinos have right to protect their games and refuse your action. They do not have a right to illegally detain a patron, who has broken no law. Newer jurisdictions like Maryland and some others are still going through this learning the legal process, but they will get there.
Unfortunately, Indian casinos are immune and just don't have to abide by the REAL legal laws and process of this country, unless something escalates to murder. Despite what our Indian casino 'ambassador' on this site says, this is precisely why I don't play Indian casinos, and I can't for the life of me, understand why others do.
So to The OP, stabworld, I would say, you have a case, but because it involves an Indian Casino, it is not a winnable case. Forget it and move on. Chalk it up to lesson learned: Play Indian Casinos at your own risk.
kewlj, I don't think I agree with you on this one. It is not security that put the cuffs on him but the police. It is the same elsewhere.
This is what the OP said "then police came, and asked for my id. "I again refused" As soon as I refused, they forced my hands behind my back, put me in handcuffs".
In state licensed casinos the same thing would have happened to the OP. Expect the police would have first read him his "medosa rights" about remaining silent before twisting his arm back and cuffing him.
Quote: Deck007kewlj, I don't think I agree with you on this one. It is not security that put the cuffs on him but the police. It is the same elsewhere.
This is what the OP said "then police came, and asked for my id. "I again refused" As soon as I refused, they forced my hands behind my back, put me in handcuffs".
In state licensed casinos the same thing would have happened to the OP. Expect the police would have first read him his "medosa rights" about remaining silent before twisting his arm back and cuffing him.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you don't live in the USA, correct? I believe you stated that somewhere else and everyone in the US knows its Miranda rights.
Anyway, in the US, the police do not have the right to detain you for not showing ID if you have not committed a crime. They aren't even allowed to stop you although they try abusing that every which way they can. Many lawsuits have been won because the police stopped someone and demanded ID without probable cause here in the states.
Quote: Deck007kewlj, I don't think I agree with you on this one. It is not security that put the cuffs on him but the police. It is the same elsewhere.
This is what the OP said "then police came, and asked for my id. "I again refused" As soon as I refused, they forced my hands behind my back, put me in handcuffs".
In state licensed casinos the same thing would have happened to the OP. Expect the police would have first read him his "medosa rights" about remaining silent before twisting his arm back and cuffing him.
Yes, I misread the OP's opening post, my bad. But really, even the cuffs is a minor detail. If security escorted him off the floor to a back room and detained him against his will, when he had done nothing illegal that would fall under illegal detainment, arrest and kidnapping (again, at least outside of Indian casino it would).
Quote: darkozCorrect me if I'm wrong but you don't live in the USA, correct? I believe you stated that somewhere else and everyone in the US knows its Miranda rights.
Anyway, in the US, the police do not have the right to detain you for not showing ID if you have not committed a crime. They aren't even allowed to stop you although they try abusing that every which way they can. Many lawsuits have been won because the police stopped someone and demanded ID without probable cause here in the states.
I live in Canada for 13 years and visited The States often.
Yes "probable cause" for sure otherwise the police can pick up anyone, anywhere and at will.
Quote: kewljYes, I misread the OP's opening post, my bad. But really, even the cuffs is a minor detail. If security escorted him off the floor to a back room and detained him against his will, when he had done nothing illegal that would fall under illegal detainment, arrest and kidnapping (again, at least outside of Indian casino it would).
This routine happens very regularly in all US casinos and is normal practice nowadays.
Quote: Deck007This routine happens very regularly in all US casinos and is normal practice nowadays.
What routinely happens? Backrooming and illegal detention?
I don't know about all US casinos, and especially know little about Indian casinos, but the places that I play it is not routine.....not in 2015.
Las Vegas it is anything but routine, now-a-days....it is rare. It was routine a decade ago, but it has all but become a thing of the past, precisely because of numerous lawsuits won. Other jurisdictions (non-Indian) are a little behind Vegas, because they are newer and have to go through the process, but eventually cases will be won in those jurisdictions as well.
Quote: kewljWhat routinely happens? Backrooming and illegal detention?
I don't know about all US casinos, and especially know little about Indian casinos, but the places that I play it is not routine.
Las Vegas it is anything but routine, now-a-days....it is rare. It was routine, but it has all but become a thing of the past, precisely because of numerous lawsuits won. Other jurisdictions (non-Indian) are a little behind Vegas, because they are newer and have to go through the process, but eventually cases will be won in those jurisdictions as well.
O.K. I accept your explanation. "It was routine, but it has all but become a thing of the past". Other states like Maryland are catching fast and learning from Vegas. There are better ways of handling these things but it doesn't mean but other states are still not using this method.
Yes, you could get some money. However, are you prepared to go through the deposition process, and explain where you have been gambling at and when? Also, how's your tax situation?
In the end, you're likely to make more, and sleep better at night by keeping what you do as secret, and out of the court.
You will likely be charged with a minor misdemeanor for failing to show id to the police, but it's just a fine.
I have been through the process and even have a current charge for it. ( Failing to aid a police officer).
The gaming officers are simply minions of low moral fiber for the casino. There job is to help identify the intelligent players so that the casino can weed them out, leaving the simple minded and blissfully ignorant in place to feed the bear.
Your gaming career is not over, you'll find this is just part of what happens at times and is part of the game. Revel in it, and soak it up. Live life to the fullest! Do not live in fear!
Also, note that whether or not you are required to present ID to a [United States] police officer varies from state to state; most states apparently do not require that you identify yourself to a police officer when demanded, and only a subset of those explicitly require that you present ID (and the ID requirement is still of questionable constitutionality). However, if police have probable cause that you were involved in a crime, even if you don't have a requirement to identify yourself, they can typically detain you until they ascertain your identity. It's also not in your interest to lie to a police officer, in case that ever comes up. In your case, I wouldn't have even lied to the casino security, I just wouldn't answer such questions (not with direct answers, anyway). For example, if security asks "are you [name]?" you can just say "why do you ask?", if you don't feel like saying something to the effect of "I am not required to identify myself to you."
- As an intentional tort, it can be a basis for civil action, i.e., bringing a lawsuit in civil court
- In criminal law it is a misdemeanor, and local standards may elevate it to a felony depending upon several factors.
To qualify as false imprisionment, it must be:
- unlawful constraint of another
- against their will
- without legal justification
It must involve the use of force, or the threat of force. Implied threats have been found to meet the standard.
Examples of legal justification are:
- Constraint by police
- Shopkeeper's exemption - a shopkeeper may imprision someone who he believes has been been stealing his goods until he can turn them over to the police for prosecution
- Voluntary consent.
Backrooming someone for card counting does not fall under the shopkeeper exemption because the casino is not turning the individual over to law enforcement for prosecution.
So, in general, backrooming is at least a misdemeanor crime and an intentional tort.
If they are backrooming on the suspicion of underage gambling or trespass those are crimes that can be prosecuted and since the OP won't provide ID to disapprove either of those crimes the casino does have the shopkeeper exemption. A smart casino will "claim" that the backrooming for these reasons and not card courting and in the OP case the casino did turn him over to the police for possible prosecution. Whether a prosecution does happen is not up to the casino or even the police as usually the district attorney is the person who makes the final decision.
In most of the real world. Maybe not so much on Indian reservations.Quote: gordonm888Let's get our language straight. Backrooming or what happened to OP is NOT kidnapping or illegal detention. It is False Imprisionment, which can be an intentional tort, a misdemeanor, or a felony.
Quote: zoobrewBackrooming someone for card counting does not fall under the shopkeeper exemption because the casino is not turning the individual over to law enforcement for prosecution.
If they are backrooming on the suspicion of underage gambling or trespass those are crimes that can be prosecuted and since the OP won't provide ID to disapprove either of those crimes the casino does have the shopkeeper exemption. A smart casino will "claim" that the backrooming for these reasons and not card courting and in the OP case the casino did turn him over to the police for possible prosecution. Whether a prosecution does happen is not up to the casino or even the police as usually the district attorney is the person who makes the final decision.
Sorry, but that's just plain wrong. If the casino suspects under-age gambling they can ask for the patron to show ID or leave the premises. They can also call the police and hope they arrive in time but that crime (which along with trespass in this situation is only a misdemeanor) does not rise up to shopkeeper exemption status.
Are you saying that if a teenager tries to buy cigarettes in a candy store, the store owner has the right to surround him with goons and hold him against his will until the police arrive?
The shopkeepers only legal option is to refuse to sell the cigarettes and ask the patron to leave. Then if he refuses to leave, they can call the police for trespass and get this, the shopkeeper still cannot hold that person (under trespass) if the person agrees to leave after the cops were called.
I think it sounds as if the casino were always going to hand you over to the police, especially given you weren't going to tell the casino who you were. It seems slightly unclear what the casino said to make the police so heavy-handed (i.e. what did they think you had done) but I think once the police were involved you know they meant business.
At this stage the police have only been told the casino's version of events, whatever they are, and have come along solely based on the, presumably serious, accusations received from the casino. Whilst you should be presumed innocent, this is similar to the police being called for a theft in a sweet shop but the police have been told, perhaps erroneously, it's not "just for a bag of sweets".
Nevertheless, when the police arrive my feeling is they should give both parties an opportunity to give their account of events. While it doesn't help your case that you still refused to give ID, assuming you didn't try to run away or anything, they shouldn't have acted until after they'd heard both stories. Subsequently the police may have decided, depending on what they had been told and your continued refusal, to take the matters further. At that stage it seems reasonable they decided they want to check out your ID; and when you still refused they took appropriate action.
I think the case of unreasonable force probably hinges on
(a) the casino did call the police after you refused to give them your ID;
(b) whether the police have a right to ask for your ID (or do they have to detain you first);
(c) whether the police had reasonable grounds to act given
- your continued reluctance to give ID;
- any history they might have been aware of (possibly from other casinos);
- the perceived risk you might be wanted for other matters;
- the nature and credibility of the casino's claims.
Also is not clear is what other facts the police might have had, so would not be easy to show they were just being heavy handed over a minor matter.
The police that came were tribal police. You have no rights on tribal property. They could even steal all the money you have on you
And you basically have no recourse.
Quote: gordonm888Let's get our language straight. Backrooming or what happened to OP is NOT kidnapping or illegal detention. It is False Imprisionment, which can be an intentional tort, a misdemeanor, or a felony.
- As an intentional tort, it can be a basis for civil action, i.e., bringing a lawsuit in civil court
- In criminal law it is a misdemeanor, and local standards may elevate it to a felony depending upon several factors.
To qualify as false imprisionment, it must be:
- unlawful constraint of another
- against their will
- without legal justification
It must involve the use of force, or the threat of force. Implied threats have been found to meet the standard.
Examples of legal justification are:
- Constraint by police
- Shopkeeper's exemption - a shopkeeper may imprision someone who he believes has been been stealing his goods until he can turn them over to the police for prosecution
- Voluntary consent.
Backrooming someone for card counting does not fall under the shopkeeper exemption because the casino is not turning the individual over to law enforcement for prosecution.
So, in general, backrooming is at least a misdemeanor crime and an intentional tort.
Looking at the need to know, and all this stuff being considered here:
1. Intentional Tort as a basis for legal action/unlawful constraint,
2. Legal justification for this, that, and the other thing.....
3. Constraint by Police (parameters): "They asked me for ID for a half an hour, I tell ya...."
4. Voluntary Consent/"He said, she said, and I'm saying here at the Wizard of Vegas...."
5. backroomings that did or did not happen, or is claimed as such at this point....
6. etcetera.....
7. Pay a Lawyer to explain all this to you, as you can't rely on Internet lawyers.
If any of this has anything to do with effective card-counting profits, I am totally lost here.....
Good thing counters don't tip, because it seems to me now some serious legal fees may be needed for the attorneys, - all in innocently practicing this effective pastime to obtain some extra part time spending money after the AP leaves the joint with pockets full o' cash after whipping the big bad casino, but it doesn't always work. Discussing Plan "B" here, now with talk to involve lawyers (like I believe that), and as we have seen here.
Can't throw a nickel to a dealer on a game when you need to throw $9,000 to discuss all the silly and pointless crap that went down in some gambling hall, with a lawyer.
The Internet lawyers prepare the case....a day of outrage. And I wasn't even backed off, but asked for ID. Like in a 7-11 when buying cigarettes.
Looks like a cost-effective career route to me.
Quote: HunterhillIf the case is good the lawyer will take it on contingency basis. So no money out of pocket.
Now that's funny.
Print out a transcript of this thread, and see what lawyer will take it with no money down.
I would say if the lawyer is bad, he'll take this on a contingency basis. "Cash Paying clients? Who needs them - if I got a card counter who was asked for ID at an Indian casino, and he wants a contingency deal!"
And Keep us all posted.
It really is card-counting sour grapes, and there's going to be some of that here and there....
And in this case, I don't blame the Indians.
Quote: PaigowdanI don't think an Any Nation attorney from any law school would take it. Let's face it, it doesn't sound like much of a case.
It really is card-counting sour grapes, and there's going to be some of that here and there....
And in this case, I don't blame the Indians.
Crybaby losers casinos are, nothing more.
And it's responses like Dan's that make me hate casinos and their employees more and more everyday.
It sounds like the crybabies are here at this board:
Some guy gets caught counting and is asked for ID at an Indian tribal joint; he is embarrassed, true, but no horrors, no back rooming, no assault, it is just "show me your id."
From that, we get:
1. Comparisons to being back roomed at a 7-11 for not showing ID for a candy bar purchase. THAT WOULD BE LIKE ILLEGAL, DUDE, RIGHT??!! Really?
2. Legal discussions on everything from Habeas Corpus to the Constitution of the United states of America over this.
3. And on what lawyers (??) would charge for this case, - including arguments that "a good lawyer would take THIS THING on CONTINGENCY." Good luck....ask Bob N.
The casinos weren't crybabies on this at all. They were like "Cry me a river, - by taking that to WOV when you LEAVE THE JOINT...."
And the whole board here cried a river over this silly story. "Dude - I like really feel your pain, they wouldn't let you count cards, life has become " etc.
As the sole dissenting opinion on this, all I was told was "Dude, Paigowdan - this is OUTRAGEOUS! His constitutional rights to fleece a gambling hall in Washington state by counting cards were ASBOLUETLY VIOLATED - Charlie Rose should do a show this is kind of third-world abuse of rights! Lawyers should take his case for free on consignment - and a "good lawyer" would, you know, dude! I'm outraged...You know, Dan, your views are from outer space and crap, like really, dude......" yada yada yada.
Even Bob Nersessian has his limits.
If AP players and board members here hate casinos (as stated above) because card-counters are flat-betted or 86-ed, I view it as gambling hall businesses trying to protect their businesses from fleecers, which is what it really is to them. Real gamblers should love or at least accept the gambling halls that give them their outlets in the first place.....Makes sense to me, - but not to you. I get that. It is also often a bad career choice in general - as we have seen here at times, also. ("Auug! I do I need a LAYWER to play at a casino - or am I doing something wrong if I happen to get backed off or need one? This is an issue of my Constitutional Rights we're talking!!! CALL A LAWYER!!! I can't figure that one out at all, so I come here to WOV for some log-rolling to the choir here on this, and I don't expect a dissenting opinion from Dan....so.....KILL HIM....")
If it isn't working, it isn't working, and spending more on lawyers than you take in is a mark....
Again Dan I have no problem with a casino flat betting or backing off a player.
It's the backroomings the handcuffs the threats of physical violence.
And the unauthorized distribution of players personal information which is actually against the law but casino's feel like they are above the law.
Casino's have allowed me to support myself and family for many years so for that I'm thankful.
You make it sound like ap play is such a waste of time and energy. Maybe for some it is but many of us have would never go back to a 9-5 job.
Quote: HunterhillNo Dan you misquoted me. I said if the case was good a lawyer would take it on contingency. I also said this was not a good case.
Again Dan I have no problem with a casino flat betting or backing off a player.
Okay, all good.
Quote: HunterhillIt's the backroomings the handcuffs the threats of physical violence.
And the unauthorized distribution of players personal information which is actually against the law but casino's feel like they are above the law.
I do NOT condone casinos doing any Nicky Santoro kind of crap, but I really think this is a Hollywood excuse of the past. Even Bob N. would say you can't point to a Martin Scorsese movie nowadays and say "that's how it was for me last Tuesday, - you know?...." It just isn't. You get backed off a game, and go to this site, and insinuate "the big bad casinos sent Nicky Santoro to backroom me, I was punched silly, my eyes were bleeding, there was an ice pick in my head, and my constitutional rights were violated - I need a lawyer" - and it really is malarkey, all AP bluster and showmanship on some Internet site, this one, mainly. You get backed off or flat-betted, you go play craps or see a movie, you don't claim back rooming or assault if it didn't happen.
Quote: HunterhillCasino's have allowed me to support myself and family for many years so for that I'm thankful.
Me too, and on a tax-reportable job.
Quote: HunterhillYou make it sound like ap play is such a waste of time and energy.
PFFT! Hell yes, and for 99% of the wanna-bees, it certainly is, - if this thread is any indication. You spend the same amount of time and Hard Work in dealer school as you do on card-counting cover plays, disguise work, et al, and you're dealing on the strip as a legit gaming industry player with a steady gig and health insurance, - (do HALF this school work and you're still at a locals place. IF YOU CAN COUNT CARDS YOU CAN DEAL CARDS!). You'll read these "I NEED A LAWYER, I WAS SO VIOLATED BY THE BIG BAD CASINOS BOSSES!" threads in a very different light.
Quote: HunterhillMaybe for some it is but many of us have would never go back to a 9-5 job.
If you're going to be a freelancer, then don't complain about the gig's pitfalls in terms of "third-world rights abuses." You're done for the night, then go home, and pray there's no good surveillance photos. Ask for trouble, get some trouble, get a lawyer and be done with it, but get a 9-to-5 gig if you're going to cry about B.S. My shift was 7PM to 3AM on dice every night, came home VERY tired every night, never a tear, but never sweated the job or my future being clean.
Quote: PaigowdanOkay, all good.
I do NOT condone casinos doing any Nicky Santoro kind of crap, but I really think this is a Hollywood excuse of the past. Even Bob N. would say you can't point to a Martin Scorsese movie nowadays and say "that's how it was for me last Tuesday, - you know?...." It just isn't. You get backed off a game, and go to this site, and insinuate "the big bad casinos sent Nicky Santoro to backroom me, I was punched silly, my eyes were bleeding, there was an ice pick in my head, and my constitutional rights were violated - I need a lawyer" - and it really is malarkey, all AP bluster and showmanship on some Internet site, this one, mainly. You get backed off or flat-betted, you go play craps or see a movie, you don't claim back rooming or assault if it didn't happen.
Me too, and on a tax-reportable job.
PFFT! Hell yes, and for 99% of the wanna-bees, it certainly is, - if this thread is any indication. You spend the same amount of time and Hard Work in dealer school as you do on card-counting cover plays, disguise work, et al, and you're dealing on the strip as a legit gaming industry player with a steady gig and health insurance, - (do HALF this school work and you're still at a locals place. IF YOU CAN COUNT CARDS YOU CAN DEAL CARDS!). You'll read these "I NEED A LAWYER, I WAS SO VIOLATED BY THE BIG BAD CASINOS BOSSES!" threads in a very different light.
If you're going to be a freelancer, then don't complain about the gig's pitfalls in terms of "third-world rights abuses." You're done for the night, then go home, and pray there's no good surveillance photos. Ask for trouble, get some trouble, get a lawyer and be done with it, but get a 9-to-5 gig if you're going to cry about B.S. My shift was 7PM to 3AM, came home tired every night, never a tear.
Perhaps you didn't shed a tear but I guarantee you were not earning thousands per night as a dealer. And yes, I did earn that much as an AP for quite some time. It takes a lot to get to that level and I expect I will by end of year. In the meantime, the casino I was hitting for that much banned me and guess what? I got a lawsuit with Bob Nersessian and guess what? If they lose (and similar cases have been won by Mr. N.) then I will make in that one lawsuit more than you made all year as a dealer.
And that's because my rights were violated regardless of how you feel about the casinos.
Quote: darkozQuote: PaigowdanOkay, all good.
I do NOT condone casinos doing any Nicky Santoro kind of crap, but I really think this is a Hollywood excuse of the past. Even Bob N. would say you can't point to a Martin Scorsese movie nowadays and say "that's how it was for me last Tuesday, - you know?...." It just isn't. You get backed off a game, and go to this site, and insinuate "the big bad casinos sent Nicky Santoro to backroom me, I was punched silly, my eyes were bleeding, there was an ice pick in my head, and my constitutional rights were violated - I need a lawyer" - and it really is malarkey, all AP bluster and showmanship on some Internet site, this one, mainly. You get backed off or flat-betted, you go play craps or see a movie, you don't claim back rooming or assault if it didn't happen.
Me too, and on a tax-reportable job.
PFFT! Hell yes, and for 99% of the wanna-bees, it certainly is, - if this thread is any indication. You spend the same amount of time and Hard Work in dealer school as you do on card-counting cover plays, disguise work, et al, and you're dealing on the strip as a legit gaming industry player with a steady gig and health insurance, - (do HALF this school work and you're still at a locals place. IF YOU CAN COUNT CARDS YOU CAN DEAL CARDS!). You'll read these "I NEED A LAWYER, I WAS SO VIOLATED BY THE BIG BAD CASINOS BOSSES!" threads in a very different light.
If you're going to be a freelancer, then don't complain about the gig's pitfalls in terms of "third-world rights abuses." You're done for the night, then go home, and pray there's no good surveillance photos. Ask for trouble, get some trouble, get a lawyer and be done with it, but get a 9-to-5 gig if you're going to cry about B.S. My shift was 7PM to 3AM, came home tired every night, never a tear.
Perhaps you didn't shed a tear but I guarantee you were not earning thousands per night as a dealer.
No; I earn my money as a game designer, which is in the six-digits figure yearly. And as for dealing, I will be happy to earn only $100 a night in average for a night's work; - very fine with me. When I return to "the pit" - and I took two years off to be the staff game designer with a major gaming distributor, only to return back, I do it to keep pulse on my casino operations knowledge. So it is not a question of "big" money. It is a question of earning your way, regardless of it being big money, and even for less or little money in the particular job.
Quote: darkozAnd yes, I did earn that much as an AP for quite some time. It takes a lot to get to that level and I expect I will by end of year.
Good for you. But in the end, it is really only:
1. skimming of off gambling halls, or scamming gambling halls as a livelihood, - and justifying it by calling them evil, - which is the real story about this sorry career; (You cannot call a gambling hall evil, - as a parasite on demon's blood is a demon blood himself, if you are to use that argument).
2. Nothing to be proud of in that light;
3. 99 out of a hundred fail at it, if this thread's sorry story is any indication; indeed, the handful of posters here who claim "I am a professional AP Player, and I truly have a delightful life, if I may say" are not only TRUE rarities, - but are sirens' calls to the many fools for their deaths at this ridiculous sport. Bob Nersessian drinks fool's blood and money when you think about this role: drinking the casino money never through legitimate casino play, but only through "upset casino bad play" when upset by a nefarious player or a team mishandled by a casino. Virtually every case won by him can be argued entrapment, - as the card counter or AP player enters the casino in bad faith himself from the get-go, actually hoping for the casino to be deliberately antagonized to mismanage that bad faith player from the start for a lawsuit. I mean, if you look at the title of this thread: DO I HAVE A LAWSUIT?, that shows the Nersessian thinking here: Either scam them with AP play, and if the casino won't let you perpetrate your fleecing (which you can justify by labeling them the evil ones), - then just sue them with Bob. It's getting ridiculous. If you had spent the same effort on Wall Street, you'd be more rich and more legal if he weren't lying to you.
3. The door is closing on your archaic and parasitic pastime. YOU are the last of the Mohicans.
Quote: darkozIn the meantime, the casino I was hitting for that much banned me and guess what? I got a lawsuit with Bob Nersessian and guess what? If they lose (and similar cases have been won by Mr. N.) then I will make in that one lawsuit more than you made all year as a dealer.
I am not primarily a dealer. I am a game designer who also works as a dealer. I take my money from royalties on my games installed in casinos, and from a casino by hitting big hands honestly as a player, and also from working as a dealer.
In my work, I defend against AP by making new games less "AP-able" in the game design itself; in dealing I do this by not flashing hole cards when I deal, and by alerting floor supervision to any AP play shenanigans while on the floor; if I work FOR casino operators, and know the [sacrosanct] business model, and it is always more sacrosanct than a shot-taking player trying to scam a gambling hall for chump change, - regardless of what he believes is his own "intelligent thinking." I will never try to scam them with the other hand. When I play, I return money if over paid; I don't even want misplayed blood money. Just today at the East Side Cannery, a dealer set [in Pai Gow Poker] three Aces as a pair of Aces with an AJ top; I told her she has a FLUSH with an Ace top, and to play the hand as a flush with an Ace top, and NOT as a pair with an Ace top. A guy, - a fellow player - with a straight and no top said I "made him lose." No I didn't - that's what THE CARDS were, a dealer error doesn't make it "yours" in any direction; (what if a dealer underpaid you? - can you say "But that is not okay for me??). I told the other player I did no such thing of depriving him, as the cards were simply played in clean action. If he had said anything further, I would have told him to leave and go stick up a convenience store, if he needed to make money from dirty casino play that much. THESE are the low-lives that casino dealers deal with on a daily basis. Casino workers see more people working their way to hell than Lucifer, because a dirty game in one way or another is okay with you. Whatever the gimmick, whatever the cry - including "Hey, this is a legal job!"
A dirty game to play in your life is not only just "okay to play," - that is, IF you can make it in your favor - to play that gaffed casino game is your entire life's goal. If this is what the AP is all about, it is just a very sad thing.
And you will indeed say "I just don't understand this, clearly I am a Saint, I am a good person, How can I be expelled from a Gambling Hall - I mean, you guys got it wrong, why are you singling me out - and why are the POLICE here - and I am calling a lawyer ----- once I ask the communion of saints at the Wizard of Vegas about this! Certainly THEY will tell me that I am right and innocent, and I am on a good career path as a fabulous card counter! It makes sense to ME!"
However, You simply do not say: "What was I thinking? Getting expelled from a gambling Hall? Wow....Clearly my actions were RATIONAL - and hopefully income producing - or so I tried, - hey! It is not a crime to use my brain, is it? - So WHY am I getting handcuffed by the police under surveillance cameras in the company of the pit boss while many recreational gamblers are shaking their heads at me? Clearly, it is those ploppies who are stupid! I am the smart one here - I was thinking intelligently - I was just using my brains - why don't you see this?"
Well, they certainly do not see the workings of my very intelligent play, and I shouldn't be punished for it. Clearly, my rights were violated!
I have played in casinos for countless hour a week for decades, and was never backed off, because I don't try to get slick for the chump change of a nickel or quarter or big money, as if I have something to prove by scamming a free lunch, or in many cases free rent. I play, and deal, clean. When I play with other players, I do not give them crap if I see anything hinky, I tell the dealer to set the hand right, or the floor supervision to monitor that game and to call surveillance. If I am gambling at a table, the play is going to be clean to the best of my knowledge and effort, no apology. Who would playhis money at an obviously dirty table? Let them handle the crap that gets complained and cried about at this board. If I get overpaid at a drive-thru or a convenience store, I return the overpayment. When I design a casino game, I have Charles Mousseau to an AP analysis report on it, and re-work it until any player cannot possibly rig it or scam it, to the best of our ability. If a player gets backed off because his play is not deemed clean enough by the house, and I believe the house, and will most other people, this special forum board aside.
Quote: Paigowdan(You cannot call a gambling hall evil, - as a parasite on demon's blood is a demon blood himself, if you are to use that argument).
Now I want to belong to a super secret gambling club where the logo is a flea on the Devil.
Quote: rxwineQuote: Paigowdan(You cannot call a gambling hall evil, - as a parasite on demon's blood is a demon blood himself, if you are to use that argument).
Now I want to belong to a super secret gambling club where the logo is a flea on the Devil.
No. You just have to admit that if you are an AP player - then you cannot say squat about a gambling hall's Purpose, knowing your own.
The AP doesn't even exist without the gambling hall.
A leech the size of a tarpaulin on a midget devil is more like it. Especially for these smaller card rooms. There's your logo.
Quote: PaigowdanQuote: darkozQuote: PaigowdanOkay, all good.
I do NOT condone casinos doing any Nicky Santoro kind of crap, but I really think this is a Hollywood excuse of the past. Even Bob N. would say you can't point to a Martin Scorsese movie nowadays and say "that's how it was for me last Tuesday, - you know?...." It just isn't. You get backed off a game, and go to this site, and insinuate "the big bad casinos sent Nicky Santoro to backroom me, I was punched silly, my eyes were bleeding, there was an ice pick in my head, and my constitutional rights were violated - I need a lawyer" - and it really is malarkey, all AP bluster and showmanship on some Internet site, this one, mainly. You get backed off or flat-betted, you go play craps or see a movie, you don't claim back rooming or assault if it didn't happen.
Me too, and on a tax-reportable job.
PFFT! Hell yes, and for 99% of the wanna-bees, it certainly is, - if this thread is any indication. You spend the same amount of time and Hard Work in dealer school as you do on card-counting cover plays, disguise work, et al, and you're dealing on the strip as a legit gaming industry player with a steady gig and health insurance, - (do HALF this school work and you're still at a locals place. IF YOU CAN COUNT CARDS YOU CAN DEAL CARDS!). You'll read these "I NEED A LAWYER, I WAS SO VIOLATED BY THE BIG BAD CASINOS BOSSES!" threads in a very different light.
If you're going to be a freelancer, then don't complain about the gig's pitfalls in terms of "third-world rights abuses." You're done for the night, then go home, and pray there's no good surveillance photos. Ask for trouble, get some trouble, get a lawyer and be done with it, but get a 9-to-5 gig if you're going to cry about B.S. My shift was 7PM to 3AM, came home tired every night, never a tear.
Perhaps you didn't shed a tear but I guarantee you were not earning thousands per night as a dealer.
No; I earn my money as a game designer, which is in the six-digits figure yearly. And as for dealing, I will be happy to earn only $100 a night in average for a night's work; - very fine with me. When I return to "the pit" - and I took two years off to be the staff game designer with a major gaming distributor, only to return back, I do it to keep pulse on my casino operations knowledge. So it is not a question of "big" money. It is a question of earning your way, regardless of it being big money, and even for less or little money in the particular job.
Good for you. But in the end, it is really only:
1. skimming of off gambling halls, or scamming gambling halls as a livelihood, - and justifying it by calling them evil, - which is the real story about this sorry career; (You cannot call a gambling hall evil, - as a parasite on demon's blood is a demon blood himself, if you are to use that argument).
2. Nothing to be proud of in that light;
3. 99 out of a hundred fail at it, if this thread's sorry story is any indication; indeed, the handful of posters here who claim "I am a professional AP Player, and I truly have a delightful life, if I may say" are not only TRUE rarities, - but are sirens' calls to the many fools for their deaths at this ridiculous sport. Bob Nersessian drinks fool's blood and money when you think about this role: drinking the casino money never through legitimate casino play, but only through "upset casino bad play" when upset by a nefarious player or a team mishandled by a casino. Virtually every case won by him can be argued entrapment, - as the card counter or AP player enters the casino in bad faith himself from the get-go, actually hoping for the casino to be deliberately antagonized to mismanage that bad faith player from the start for a lawsuit. I mean, if you look at the title of this thread: DO I HAVE A LAWSUIT?, that shows the Nersessian thinking here: Either scam them with AP play, and if the casino won't let you perpetrate your fleecing (which you can justify by labeling them the evil ones), - then just sue them with Bob. It's getting ridiculous. If you had spent the same effort on Wall Street, you'd be more rich and more legal if he weren't lying to you.
3. The door is closing on your archaic and parasitic pastime. YOU are the last of the Mohicans.
I am not primarily a dealer. I am a game designer who also works as a dealer. I take my money from royalties on my games installed in casinos, and from a casino by hitting big hands honestly as a player, and also from working as a dealer.
In my work, I defend against AP by making new games less "AP-able" in the game design itself; in dealing I do this by not flashing hole cards when I deal, and by alerting floor supervision to any AP play shenanigans while on the floor; if I work FOR casino operators, and know the [sacrosanct] business model, and it is always more sacrosanct than a shot-taking player trying to scam a gambling hall for chump change, - regardless of what he believes is his own "intelligent thinking." I will never try to scam them with the other hand. When I play, I return money if over paid; I don't even want misplayed blood money. Just today at the East Side Cannery, a dealer set [in Pai Gow Poker] three Aces as a pair of Aces with an AJ top; I told her she has a FLUSH with an Ace top, and to play the hand as a flush with an Ace top, and NOT as a pair with an Ace top. A guy, - a fellow player - with a straight and no top said I "made him lose." No I didn't - that's what THE CARDS were, a dealer error doesn't make it "yours" in any direction; (what if a dealer underpaid you? - can you say "But that is not okay for me??). I told the other player I did no such thing of depriving him, as the cards were simply played in clean action. If he had said anything further, I would have told him to leave and go stick up a convenience store, if he needed to make money from dirty casino play that much. THESE are the low-lives that casino dealers deal with on a daily basis. Casino workers see more people working their way to hell than Lucifer, because a dirty game in one way or another is okay with you. Whatever the gimmick, whatever the cry - including "Hey, this is a legal job!"
A dirty game to play in your life is not only just "okay to play," - that is, IF you can make it in your favor - to play that gaffed casino game is your entire life's goal. If this is what the AP is all about, it is just a very sad thing.
And you will indeed say "I just don't understand this, clearly I am a Saint, I am a good person, How can I be expelled from a Gambling Hall - I mean, you guys got it wrong, why are you singling me out - and why are the POLICE here - and I am calling a lawyer ----- once I ask the communion of saints at the Wizard of Vegas about this! Certainly THEY will tell me that I am right and innocent, and I am on a good career path as a fabulous card counter! It makes sense to ME!"
However, You simply do not say: "What was I thinking? Getting expelled from a gambling Hall? Wow....Clearly my actions were RATIONAL - and hopefully income producing - or so I tried, - hey! It is not a crime to use my brain, is it? - So WHY am I getting handcuffed by the police under surveillance cameras in the company of the pit boss while many recreational gamblers are shaking their heads at me? Clearly, it is those ploppies who are stupid! I am the smart one here - I was thinking intelligently - I was just using my brains - why don't you see this?"
Well, they certainly do not see the workings of my very intelligent play, and I shouldn't be punished for it. Clearly, my rights were violated!
I have played in casinos for countless hour a week for decades, and was never backed off, because I don't try to get slick for the chump change of a nickel or quarter or big money, as if I have something to prove by scamming a free lunch, or in many cases free rent. I play, and deal, clean. When I play with other players, I do not give them crap if I see anything hinky, I tell the dealer to set the hand right, or the floor supervision to monitor that game and to call surveillance. If I am gambling at a table, the play is going to be clean to the best of my knowledge and effort, no apology. Who would playhis money at an obviously dirty table? Let them handle the crap that gets complained and cried about at this board. If I get overpaid at a drive-thru or a convenience store, I return the overpayment. When I design a casino game, I have Charles Mousseau to an AP analysis report on it, and re-work it until any player cannot possibly rig it or scam it, to the best of our ability. If a player gets backed off because his play is not deemed clean enough by the house, and I believe the house, and will most other people, this special forum board aside.
Let me correct you on something Paigowdan:
I did not come on this board to cry about my incident. I also, did not try to scam the casino with a lawsuit. I did not walk into the casino that day, and say, "I hope I get my rights violated today so I can sue". My civil rights were violated and I wanted to get advice to see if I can get compensated for it. They violated my rights and they should rightfully pay. They didn't like the way I played a game, so they illegally detained me, put me in handcuffs, unlawfully searched and distributed personal information to casino personal against my consent. They embarrassed and humiliated me in a public setting.
Casino's offer games to the general public for entertainment value and they make a profit off of it, like any other business. This is fine if the person is doing it responsibly and within their financial means. Unfortunately, the casino profits also from patrons who have gambling additions. Some of these patrons ruin there lives and family's lives because of their gambling disease. Oh but, wait, the casino's offer the games to a third type of patron: (well, not willingly anyway, but legally they must) the Advantage Player.
After reading your posts in this thread, it seems like you have a real issue with advantage players, for whatever reason. You sit on your computer and type in these sarcastic posts, mocking the AP'er. You make your living through designing games for the casino and working as a dealer. The casino's pay your salary. Well, they pay my salary too - along with every other successful AP'er in this thread. We are employed by the same corporation in a sense. (well maybe employed is a bad word, you are employed, we the AP'ers, just take their money)
So what's the difference between me and you?
You (9 to 5'r) - are employed by the casino because you had to apply and ask their permission to be payed by them.
Me (AP'er) - didn't have to ask the casino for anything - we take a game they offer and beat it because we are smart enough to do so.
You (9 to 5'r) - are a slave to the casino - you go to work when they tell you too. You obey there rules on the job, otherwise you don't get payed. (ya, ok, you have health benefits and are contributing to your social security, fine, +1 on the AP'er)
Me (AP'er) - we go to work when we want, take off when we want.
You (9 to 5'r) - support and design games for the casino - a casino in which I previously stated -makes a profit off of patrons who ruin there lives and family's lives through there gambling addition.
Me (AP'er) - does not support the casino - we exploit there weaknesses just like they exploit gamblers weaknesses (its laughable those gambling addition hotlines and commercials). We take profits from them.
You chose your career path, and we chose ours. We do not mock you for it, so don't mock us.
Sometimes I'm a bit 'hasty' so I cannot imagine it working out the same as your incident did. That is not to disparage what you did at any point in the incident. But I wonder if you are going forward with a possible opportunity to retrieve some retribution against the perpetrators or if you are still weighing your options. Pls keep us informed, and GOOD LUCK whichever way you proceed.
If you haven't had a conversation with Bob Nersesian you should do so. He knows more about these situations than anyone and can give you much needed advice and probably a referral to someone in your area that has the required experience.
Bob has successfully sued tribal casinos. I'm uncertain whether he has been able to collect any judgements since I believe this is a relatively new area.
Every state that has tribal casinos has a pact with those tribes. The feds leave the particulars to the states when it comes to tribal gaming regulation so the rules that the tribes operate under vary from state to state. In my state there is a move afoot to give tribal police the same powers as the state police, state wide. Yea, I cringed when I read that.
Knowing in which state this incident occurred would help, I don't believe that you stated the locale anywhere. I believe that Bob Nersesian has had some success in AZ.
Good Luck. What happened to you should be against the law everywhere. It's unfortunate that it occurred on tribal land.
Quote: stabworldLet me correct you on something Paigowdan:
I did not come on this board to cry about my incident. I also, did not try to scam the casino with a lawsuit. I did not walk into the casino that day, and say, "I hope I get my rights violated today so I can sue".
No. Instead, you walked into a casino knowing 100% full well that what you were doing could get you either undue attention and questioned, or backed off. And exactly that went down, as a risk of your actions - a cost of doing business. My point is that this is NOT something to cry about.
Quote: stabworldMy civil rights were violated and I wanted to get advice to see if I can get compensated for it. They violated my rights and they should rightfully pay. They didn't like the way I played a game, so they illegally detained me, put me in handcuffs, unlawfully searched and distributed personal information to casino personal against my consent. They embarrassed and humiliated me in a public setting.
You're right, I can see this as embarrassing. But as a major, or even minor civil rights case I feel this is more of a "cost of doing this kind of business" type of questioning of a questionable customer than as a true civil rights case. Any time a Professional player passes himself off as a non-pro recreational player to try to use the Casino as his personal ATM, deceitful or bad-faith play and misrepresentation in the eyes of casino management can be assumed.
Quote: stabworldCasino's offer games to the general public for entertainment value and they make a profit off of it, like any other business.
Yes, exactly, and for that reason casinos may view disallowed AP play (read: not technically illegal play) as misrepresentation and fundamentally dishonest play, - pilferage of a sort it may be seen as - and deny you the right to play, and may also inquire or ask you about your game play and real intentions.
Quote: stabworldThis is fine if the person is doing it responsibly and within their financial means. Unfortunately, the casino profits also from patrons who have gambling additions. Some of these patrons ruin there lives and family's lives because of their gambling disease.
Yes, as do bars, supermarkets and 7-11 sell beer and spirits to the general public, some of whom may have drinking issues. Remember - people are responsible for their own best healthful behaviors, and if a gambling addict skips out on his Gamblers' Anonymous meetings and fails to call his sponsor and hits the tables, then the casino or gambling hall is not to blame. And in this case, too, the player is misrepresenting himself, as he too knows better who he is and what he's about.
Quote: stabworldOh but, wait, the casino's offer the games to a third type of patron: (well, not willingly anyway, but legally they must) the Advantage Player.
And they come in in droves, not thinking "let me spend some time having some fun and trying my luck," but instead think "let me line my pockets off the backs of these businesses," - businesses that clearly I support, as a constitutional right.
Quote: stabworldAfter reading your posts in this thread, it seems like you have a real issue with advantage players, for whatever reason. You sit on your computer and type in these sarcastic posts, mocking the AP'er.
Yeah, perhaps I do indeed. I think it is both a poor career choice and a fundamentally dishonest and parasitic one when you examine it. But that's my opinion, and who the hell am I? If you're a real AP, you wouldn't and shouldn't care less about anyone else's opinions and view points. They would only bother you if you found them difficult to falsify. I really am quite clear and straightforward in what I think is wrong with AP as a practice or career choice,
Quote: stabworldYou make your living through designing games for the casino and working as a dealer. The casino's pay your salary. Well, they pay my salary too - along with every other successful AP'er in this thread. We are employed by the same corporation in a sense. (well maybe employed is a bad word, you are employed, we the AP'ers, just take their money)
True. But casino workers are officially on the payroll in good faith, trying to offer gaming services to the general public, while some of the general public will try to legally skim extra cash - some extra real money - at the cost to many good faith recreational players playing 6:5 Blackjack at a 1.8% house edge instead of a 0.5% house edge. They're paying for it, and I feel for them.
Quote: stabworldSo what's the difference between me and you?
A few things:
1. I'm welcomed by the operators because I seek to assist them and help them in offering gaming services to the general public; I don't work against them, I work for them. There is comfort in this understanding with an employer, being on the same sheet of music.
2. Some of my work involves assuring game protection at their behest - so we can safely offer these services in the first place under a properly functioning business model, and of course I comply and see their point on the need and the validity for game protection. I comply with, and help enforce the house rules of play, - as do all dealers, floormen, and pit bosses, otherwise we'd be in collusion. We're supposed to do that, and no, we do not have some nerve for doing it, we're doing our jobs. Personally, I wish more game designers consider game protection in their game designs, because while games are designed for recreational gamblers, again, we're dealing with a more general, general public.
3. I have a reportable, tax-paying job that I can place on an above-board work history or corporate resume.
4. Health Insurance.
5. I don't have to worry about "game tightening" or back offs affecting my income. My work is to provide gaming services, not to take advantage of some game's weakness that could later be closed off. 6:5 shoe games with 75% penetration make it tough; what if an even newer variant comes along? I'll deal it...
I will say there is, at least to some, an illicit panache, or a seeming sophistication, in feeling to be above the level of the "silly ploppy recreational players" who have day time jobs and are just playing cards after a dinner and a show for some fun and relaxation. I see nothing wrong with these.
Quote: stabworldYou (9 to 5'r) - are employed by the casino because you had to apply and ask their permission to be payed by them.
Me (AP'er) - didn't have to ask the casino for anything - we take a game they offer and beat it because we are smart enough to do so.
Let me tell you what people in the pit think when we see some guy carted off a game, sometimes in handcuffs.....we're really not thinking "Wow...this guy's a GENIUS...I hope my daughter marries him!!" We think it is sad to see. If you feel that your rights were violated, then get a lawyer. You may have a case.
Quote: stabworldYou (9 to 5'r) - are a slave to the casino - you go to work when they tell you too. You obey there rules on the job, otherwise you don't get payed. (ya, ok, you have health benefits and are contributing to your social security, fine, +1 on the AP'er).
I feel that responsibility is freedom. And as for rules, and as we have seen, you may have to obey some, too.
Quote: stabworldMe (AP'er) - we go to work when we want, take off when we want.
Yeah, but you also get backed off or questioned by personnel when you don't want to. So, no, you cannot always work when you want to. If you get burnt out, you actually get forced into retirement.
Quote: stabworldYou (9 to 5'r) - support and design games for the casino - a casino in which I previously stated -makes a profit off of patrons who ruin there lives and family's lives through there gambling addition.
The vast majority of players come and play for fun without an issue. I would also say that the most hard-core, frequently-playing, most passionate and obsessed players are those who are trying to be pro at it.
Quote: stabworldMe (AP'er) - does not support the casino - we exploit there weaknesses just like they exploit gamblers weaknesses (its laughable those gambling addition hotlines and commercials). We take profits from them.
That is your goal. But it is feeding off of the very host that you need to have around for your existence and benefit.
Quote: stabworldYou chose your career path, and we chose ours. We do not mock you for it, so don't mock us.
Yes. And please view my questioning of it all less as mocking, but more as questioning it all for the long run. Even those who are good enough to make a living may view it more as a good run than as a career in the end. Yes, there are some amazing and well-off counters who can star in a remake of the Invisible Man
Let me say this:
1. As bad as this sounds, some of my closest and esteemed friends are counters. ("Some of my best friends are....") But really.
2. I assure you, many say Thank the Lord for my day time job....
