Dealer forgot to check hole card

I was playing at French Lick in Indiana the other day and the dealer showed a 10 and I had 8-3. I of course doubled down and and got a King for a total of 21. Dealer goes to flip his hole card and its an Ace. Naturally the table was pissed and the dealer called over the pit boss who initially tried to take both my original bet and my double down wager to which I argued of course. I argued that I should push both wagers but they ended up taking my original bet and returning the additional wager. I honestly don't know how this should have been handled. Any thoughts?

Exactly like it was handled. That is the proper ruling.

Some places might give you a push just to be nice since it was their screw up, but taking the original bet is the correct call.

Quote: jacmrose

I was playing at French Lick in Indiana the other day and the dealer showed a 10 and I had 8-3. I of course doubled down and and got a King for a total of 21. Dealer goes to flip his hole card and its an Ace. Naturally the table was pissed and the dealer called over the pit boss who initially tried to take both my original bet and my double down wager to which I argued of course. I argued that I should push both wagers but they ended up taking my original bet and returning the additional wager. I honestly don't know how this should have been handled. Any thoughts?

These things happen. It was handled correctly. Are you sure the pit boss, of all people, initially tried to take both bets?

Yeah he initially just said that all bets lose and the dealer starting taking everyone's bet until I said something.

Double downs and splits must be returned to you.

They're within their rights to take your initial bet since they had a blackjack, but the neighborly ruling would be to say the dealer has just 21 and you've earned a push. Their prerogative, but I like the neighborly ruling better.

It was played correctly

Why would you push both wagers? The dealer not checking had no effect on the dealt cards. Obviously you should not lose your double.

I hate when the count is good and they forgot to check. The next few cards are 10s and the count lowers just to have the hand not matter because dealer has bj.

I was at a Harrah's this last weekend and saw an abnormally high number of dealer mistakes, all kinds of weird stuff, at the BJ tables. I did notice that when there was a doubt and the Pit Boss was called in, I think every time the decision was made to just rule in the Player's favor, just pay them. Of course was at a $15 table with most players betting in the $15 to $50 dollar range so maybe it's better to just pay and move play along. The House can't win if the game isn't moving along. Anyway, to most of the Players it appeared that the House was going our of their way to give the Players 'the benefit of the doubt', which is good PR in my opinion.

One of the oddest instances of the weekend. I had a $125 bet out and lost, most of the table lost. The dealer went around the table and picked up the chips, took my green but left my black sitting there, just missed it. I pointed it out, he thought about it for a minute, checked the cards again, and eventually picked up the chip. But I think it shook him up badly..... 2F

Quote: jacmrose

I was playing at French Lick in Indiana the other day and the dealer showed a 10 and I had 8-3. I of course doubled down and and got a King for a total of 21. Dealer goes to flip his hole card and its an Ace. Naturally the table was pissed and the dealer called over the pit boss who initially tried to take both my original bet and my double down wager to which I argued of course. I argued that I should push both wagers but they ended up taking my original bet and returning the additional wager. I honestly don't know how this should have been handled. Any thoughts?

Same exact thing happened to me. I had a 6,7 and drew an 8 for 21. The pit treated the dealer's hand as a 21, not a blackjack so I pushed. It's possible that the dealer checked for blackjack incorrectly by placing their 10-value up-card in the reader sideways so it didn't read the ace.

Quote: Greasyjohn

Same exact thing happened to me. I had a 6,7 and drew an 8 for 21. The pit treated the dealer's hand as a 21, not a blackjack so I pushed. It's possible that the dealer checked for blackjack incorrectly by placing their 10-value up-card in the reader sideways so it didn't read the ace.

I didn't explain all the dealer mistakes, just itemized one of the ones that effected me. I also saw the dealer not check the hole card on a hand, other players doubled and/or split,,then dealer turned over for a Blackjack. In that case, every hand was treated as if the dealer had revealed the BJ initially. Thankfully no one had been paid for BJ, the splits and/or doubles were taken back to the initial bet, etc. sort-of worked out correctly, but no one was offered insurance, (which they should have been in a properly played deal) . Hard to reconcile errors in some cases. In your particular case, you got lucky, again good PR....2F

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I didn't explain all the dealer mistakes, just itemized one of the ones that effected me. I also saw the dealer not check the hole card on a hand, other players doubled and/or split,,then dealer turned over for a Blackjack. In that case, every hand was treated as if the dealer had revealed the BJ initially. Thankfully no one had been paid for BJ, the splits and/or doubles were taken back to the initial bet, etc. sort-of worked out correctly, but no one was offered insurance, (which they should have been in a properly played deal) . Hard to reconcile errors in some cases. In your particular case, you got lucky, again good PR....2F

I didn't mention that there were players at the table that were regularly taking insurance, they didn't complain, I bit my tongue and kept my big mouth shut for a change.

I should also add that at the time there was a guy to my right that sat down and asked (just asked me, not the whole table), "do you mind if I play unconventionally?". My initial response was play however you want, doesn't bother me, but might bother some of the rest of the table. He didn't ask the rest of the table. I was the last player, I'm thinking I hear that referred to as 'third base' occasionally but I would call it sixth base in this case (full table). The guy proceeded to play in what I have to guess is the most bizarre fashion I have ever run into. Made all sorts of bets that basic strategy for the six decks we were playing were bad. Split face cards on virtually everything, had the dealer gasping for air, ran several players off the table. I just told myself, actually told the table, "now we are playing with a continuous shuffle machine". Just a little while before I colored up for the night, we had a hand where Mr unconventional had 10,10 vs dealer 3, and of course he split, and had two hands of 10,10 and damn if he didn't split them both again, now four hands and doubled one or more of them, my head was spinning around on my neck like something from the Exorcist or something. He wound up with an overall 'push' for the deal, turned and said to me "now that was an adrenaline rush". I replied, as dryly as I knew how to, "you had a pretty good winning "20" to start with". The pit boss was standing and watching (and listening) and I think she pee'd her pants then, and had to go on break early. Was one of those kind of weekends ;-) 2F

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Just a little while before I colored up for the night, we had a hand where Mr unconventional had 10,10 vs dealer 3, and of course he split, and had two hands of 10,10 and damn if he didn't split them both again, now four hands and doubled one or more of them, my head was spinning around on my neck like something from the Exorcist or something.

Hey, I find that refreshing. If you're going to be ridiculous, at least commit to it. So often people split faces, get another face and when asked if they want to split again, say "What are you, crazy?! I have twenty!"

Not condoning the play at all, of course. Just saying if you're gonna do it, follow through.

Quote: DRich

Exactly like it was handled. That is the proper ruling.

Some places might give you a push just to be nice since it was their screw up, but taking the original bet is the correct call.

Agree. Some places will push your 21, but take everything else when the dealer misses the BJ in the peeper. The correct call though is to take all original losing bets, push the player blackjacks, and return all doubles and splits. Be careful, if the dealer misses an Ace-Up Blackjack, if you took insurance be sure to ask for your money back as well as your insurance winnings.

Quote: bigplayer

Agree. Some places will push your 21, but take everything else when the dealer misses the BJ in the peeper. The correct call though is to take all original losing bets, push the player blackjacks, and return all doubles and splits.

Problem is that if the dealer didn't check, he's already paid the player blackjacks, so to do it this way would be to demand the player return the money. I know a lot of casinos have no problem doing this, but it definitely creates a sour vibe.

Quote:

Be careful, if the dealer misses an Ace-Up Blackjack, if you took insurance be sure to ask for your money back as well as your insurance winnings.

And if the dealer didn't check on an ace-up blackjack, he probably didn't offer insurance either. In which case the casino pretty much has to allow everybody to push since they can't say for sure that you wouldn't have taken it.

Quote: Deucekies

Problem is that if the dealer didn't check, he's already paid the player blackjacks, so to do it this way would be to demand the player return the money. I know a lot of casinos have no problem doing this, but it definitely creates a sour vibe.


And if the dealer didn't check on an ace-up blackjack, he probably didn't offer insurance either. In which case the casino pretty much has to allow everybody to push since they can't say for sure that you wouldn't have taken it.

Normally when the dealer forgets to check an A up blackjack, the pit will ask if they offered insurance. And since they didn't, they usually offer insurance at that point.. (with the 10 card now facing up).
I've seen someone actually refuse to take insurance when this happened.

Quote: sc15

I've seen someone actually refuse to take insurance when this happened.

Why doesn't that surprise me?

Quote: sc15

Normally when the dealer forgets to check an A up blackjack, the pit will ask if they offered insurance. And since they didn't, they usually offer insurance at that point.. (with the 10 card now facing up).
I've seen someone actually refuse to take insurance when this happened.

It could be because the guy felt like he had a clear conscience and regarded making the bet knowing the outcome beforehand as cheating...

I've seen people refusing insurance when it's been made very clear that they have blackjack, whether it be flipping it early so it's obvious, or a more subtle wink-wink-nudge-nudge because they were told that insurance is always a sucker move.

Though my favorite was not hitting 16 against an accidentally exposed 17, because you still have a chance as long as you haven't busted. (Somehow.)

btw I assume, confirmed by various peoples' comments, the rule is that the house should treat it as a Blackjack. However what if a player did it?

I ask because I've only played hand-dealt face down a few times and once looked at my first card, a Ten, opposite the dealer's 4. I knew I wasn't going to hit, so didn't look at my second card (it seemed more fun that way). The dealer said that I should have declared my Blackjack (although in this instance it didn't affect things as other people were still in the hand, so the dealer had to resolve their hand).

Quote:

Problem is that if the dealer didn't check, he's already paid the player blackjacks, so to do it this way would be to demand the player return the money. I know a lot of casinos have no problem doing this, but it definitely creates a sour vibe.

Happened to me before while I was dealing. I just said f*ck it keep the money.

Quote: charliepatrick

...The dealer said that I should have declared my Blackjack...

The dealer was right fro several reasons.

1 - As you mentioned, the wasted time while the dealer resolves the hand.

2 - The wasted / burnt cards while the dealer resolves his hand could cause you to be flagged as a card counter.

3 - If there is someone else at the table, particularly if playing to your left, they are entitled to the extra card information. If they are counting, they'll be particularly pissed.

The only time I ever played face down blackjack, I didn't know you were supposed to flip over your Blackjack right away. I tucked my blackjack like any other pat hand. The dealer turned it over, politely told me what to do next time, and gave me my 3:2. No harm done.

Quote: Deucekies

The only time I ever played face down blackjack, I didn't know you were supposed to flip over your Blackjack right away. I tucked my blackjack like any other pat hand. The dealer turned it over, politely told me what to do next time, and gave me my 3:2. No harm done.

As I said I've probably only ever play twice so didn't fully realise you had to declare them; as in your case, the dealer informed me that I should have declared it. It's a good point how it might look bad from a counting point of view; similarly if you couldn't add up and didn't realise you were bust, they might eventually take a dim view (especially if they thought you were a counter!). Thanks