barnstorm
barnstorm
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February 13th, 2015 at 6:50:41 PM permalink
It seems to me that Double Exposure should be more advantageous to the player than regular blackjack. Why is it usually listed as less so?

Disadvantage of course is ties lose and that's a big one.

But the Advantages are numerous and seem like they would more than make up for ties losing:

1. Taking advantage of all the high % aggressive splits and doubles.
2. Hitting and winning those times when you would have stood if you were only seeing the Dealer's 2-6 card.
3. Avoiding splits and doubles that you might do if you were only seeing the Dealer's 2-6 card and not his hole card that might add his total up to 7-11.

So maybe the edge comes down to how often you can split and double?

Whether a dealer hits a soft 17 or not doesn't seem like that big a deal. Won't come up that many times to make much of a difference, will it?
Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
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February 13th, 2015 at 8:04:32 PM permalink
Quote: barnstorm

It seems to me that Double Exposure should be more advantageous to the player than regular blackjack. Why is it usually listed as less so?

Disadvantage of course is ties lose and that's a big one.

But the Advantages are numerous and seem like they would more than make up for ties losing:

1. Taking advantage of all the high % aggressive splits and doubles.
2. Hitting and winning those times when you would have stood if you were only seeing the Dealer's 2-6 card.
3. Avoiding splits and doubles that you might do if you were only seeing the Dealer's 2-6 card and not his hole card that might add his total up to 7-11.

So maybe the edge comes down to how often you can split and double?

Whether a dealer hits a soft 17 or not doesn't seem like that big a deal. Won't come up that many times to make much of a difference, will it?



It's not about the numerical amount of pros and cons. It's the house edge. Losing every push to the dealer kills the game, the worst rule there is. The game isn't outright abandoned because many people, like you, don't seem to realize that it's a stats game. In that game, they also will pay even money on blackjack, as pushes losing alone isn't enough to kill the player advantage.
barnstorm
barnstorm
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February 13th, 2015 at 8:25:38 PM permalink
So that's it? None of those things even all added together make up for ties losing? I assumed that the ties losing must be it, but it just doesn't seem like it when I play. I guess I have just gotten lucky, but I have played a lot of Double Exposure and am way ahead. Better quit while I am!

Thanks!
RS
RS
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February 13th, 2015 at 8:39:44 PM permalink
Quote: barnstorm

So that's it? None of those things even all added together make up for ties losing? I assumed that the ties losing must be it, but it just doesn't seem like it when I play. I guess I have just gotten lucky, but I have played a lot of Double Exposure and am way ahead. Better quit while I am!

Thanks!



Pretty much, yeah. With perfect hole-card play, player gets an edge in the low teens, or somewhere round that. I believe in regular BJ, if ties go dealer, that gives the house ~17% edge. (Don't quote me on that one.) And if you know that a tie is going to lose, then you'd play a little differently on those hands (even hands like 99v19, 77v17 [maybe] and definitely hands like 17v17, 18v18, etc.).

"Ties go to dealer" is a pretty gnarly rule which gives an ENOURMOUS edge to the house.
djatc
djatc
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February 13th, 2015 at 9:02:27 PM permalink
You guys talking about dancing dealers wardrobe malfunctions?
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
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February 13th, 2015 at 11:42:49 PM permalink
Quote: barnstorm

So that's it? None of those things even all added together make up for ties losing? I assumed that the ties losing must be it, but it just doesn't seem like it when I play. I guess I have just gotten lucky, but I have played a lot of Double Exposure and am way ahead. Better quit while I am!

Thanks!



Pushes losing alone is not enough to destroy the game. But it is the largest killer. The standard game will pay 1:1 on blackjack instead of 3:2.

RS's number's are way off. Double exposure gives the player about a 10% advantage. Losing on pushes decreases the edge by about 8.5%. Paying even money on blackjack gives the house back another 2.5%. You are at a net disadvantage of almost 1%. Obviously, this game can still be beat by counting, but it is not as good as regular blackjack. It's better than 6:5 blackjack, but that's all it's got going for it.

Anytime the dealer takes your money when he didn't win, or doesn't pay you when he lost, due to a rule, it's a scam. The scam is always coupled with some unbelievably favorable rule, that muddles the issue, taking a mathematician or rote memorization of odds tables to figure out the reality of the situation. Obviously, the scam works pretty well.
barnstorm
barnstorm
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March 2nd, 2015 at 4:10:24 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

Pushes losing alone is not enough to destroy the game. But it is the largest killer. The standard game will pay 1:1 on blackjack instead of 3:2.

RS's number's are way off. Double exposure gives the player about a 10% advantage. Losing on pushes decreases the edge by about 8.5%. Paying even money on blackjack gives the house back another 2.5%. You are at a net disadvantage of almost 1%. Obviously, this game can still be beat by counting, but it is not as good as regular blackjack. It's better than 6:5 blackjack, but that's all it's got going for it.

Anytime the dealer takes your money when he didn't win, or doesn't pay you when he lost, due to a rule, it's a scam. The scam is always coupled with some unbelievably favorable rule, that muddles the issue, taking a mathematician or rote memorization of odds tables to figure out the reality of the situation. Obviously, the scam works pretty well.



Thanks! Good stuff. So a 1% disadvantage. And that is with playing smart and taking advantage of all the aggressive and proper doubles and splitting 10s, etc?

So only card counting can help you get back that 1%?

Thanks!
RS
RS
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March 2nd, 2015 at 4:13:46 PM permalink
Quote: barnstorm

Thanks! Good stuff. So a 1% disadvantage. And that is with playing smart and taking advantage of all the aggressive and proper doubles and splitting 10s, etc?

So only card counting can help you get back that 1%?

Thanks!



Yes.

Well there would be other ways to get an advantage, for example, knowing what the next card (your first card) is going to be would be advantageous, assuming you can increase/decrease your bet with that knowledge.

I don't know how great card counting is in a double exposure game. It wouldn't be as good as in regular blackjack, though.
Deucekies
Deucekies
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March 2nd, 2015 at 5:10:42 PM permalink
Quote: RS


I don't know how great card counting is in a double exposure game. It wouldn't be as good as in regular blackjack, though.



Without being a card counter myself, it seems to me it'd be pretty rough. A high count isn't as nice if your 20 is going to lose to the dealer's 20.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
dwheatley
dwheatley
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March 2nd, 2015 at 5:45:12 PM permalink
S17 double exposure only has an edge of 0.2%, which is better than blackjack if you can find an S17 game. H17 is 0.6%.

Then counting using hi-lo gives you 0.7% ish per count, which is better than BJ again. Overall, an S17 game is both better to play and better to count than regular BJ.

[all figures source: Pro BJ, Wong]
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it

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