BlackjackKing
BlackjackKing
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January 10th, 2015 at 12:50:43 PM permalink
I was wondering if anyone had any experience with cheating dealers within the last 5 years or so. I understand that it used to be a big problem in Vegas back in the "good old days", but hopefully not anymore.

Any casino, Any country/state
Romes
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January 12th, 2015 at 6:38:14 AM permalink
I wasn't around for the really 'good old days' where the dealers rolled decks over, etc... but from my perspective I don't think I've seen very many cheating dealers. I've looked for the ones that pull the 2nd card from the shoe by peeking at the first, dealing seconds in DD, etc. Most of the 'cheating' that is involved now is when you get an uppity 'house' dealer (whom loves it when the players lose) who tries to push your winning bets or take your push bets. Of course there's no way to tell if this is intentional or not, but I will note that I've noticed it happens more often with these types of dealers.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Deucekies
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January 12th, 2015 at 11:09:19 AM permalink
The only cheating I've heard of, at least locally, has been in the player's favor. Dealers overpaying to get more tips.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Beardgoat
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January 12th, 2015 at 11:55:53 AM permalink
I've never caught a dealer cheating against me. I've had dealers "cheat" for me on multiple occasions.
1.) dealer at bellagio checked for BJ and the red light came on briefly... Then he remembered to ask for insurance. I said I'll take insurance and put my money down. 3 other people at the table either didn't realize he had blackjack, or they were stupid. So they all lost to the BJ and I got my wager back.
2.) dealer at Casino Royale paid me for winning a hand twice when he busted to a 22. It should have been a push. He almost paid it a 3rd time before the pit boss saw him attempt a payout. I was expecting a call from surveillance to come down and have me pay back what he had paid in error previously, but the call never came
3.) Also at Casino Royale I had been playing craps and usually placing $10 odds on my come bets. I forgot to place odds on a 4 and during the roll I announced I'd like odds. What do you know the 4 hits. Dealer says drop him a quarter. I was confused but did so. He paid me $50 on my $25 odds instead of $20 on $10 odds. I had been tipping him prior to this happening so I am convinced this only happened due to me tipping
rcspokertables
rcspokertables
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January 14th, 2015 at 9:37:27 PM permalink
Usually cheating dealers cannot be found 'cause they have revealed themselves so well that we normal gamblers can't figure out if one of them is cheating. As I had read articles online, I know there are poker cheating devices in the market, but I'd rather not use them at all. Two reasons: a. I don't gamble often, b. it's too risky. Though I look down upon cheating dealers, I don't want to be a casino cheater, just the same as them.
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Paigowdan
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January 14th, 2015 at 11:01:58 PM permalink
Cheating dealers no longer exist, except for a few clowns who get hanged high. (Now, Gamblers trying things and taking shots, - now that's a different story. They abound in spades.)

Why would dealers risk a felony for small change with cameras all over the place? And for whom? You, the gambler? Or for their bosses?

The dealers would neither work for (or risk their careers or lives for) the bosses they dislike, nor the players they dislike, for the small change that they would make, and for the felony charge.

You'd sooner see a bank teller or a 7-11 clerk try this.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxelWolf
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January 14th, 2015 at 11:13:48 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Cheating dealers no longer exist.

BS! unless you don't think dealers colluding with players is cheating. Didn't a roulette dealer just get busted for telling players what to bet on. Whatever his reasons were, or if he could actually affect anything is not the point, he was at least trying to swindle the players somehow.

Threat of the law and being caught doesn't discourage everybody.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
ShineyShine
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January 14th, 2015 at 11:26:04 PM permalink
Depends what you mean by cheating dealers... if its cheating either against or for the player, then i agree with dan, why would they? And in Axel's roulette case, wasn't that a case of the dealer jokingly saying what they should bet on, and it somehow got misconstrued and out of hand? I remember reading the article on it, but cant remember the exact details.

If by cheating you mean theft from the casino, then this would be far more common. I've personally worked with 2 people that were sacked for robbing chips from the float.
Paigowdan
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January 14th, 2015 at 11:26:13 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

BS! unless you don't think dealers colluding with players is cheating. Didn't a roulette dealer just get busted for telling players what to bet on?


Yes, I think a dealer colluding with players is cheating, if they're making real money at it. But a Roulette dealer telling the players what numbers to bet on next spin (like the Amazing Kreskin) is simply a Roulette dealer sticking his fingers into the players' backsides. I dealt craps for years, and I used to tell players who were a pain in the butt: "Yeah, Boxcars is coming out on the very next roll!! Bet the table max on it, and see what happens!! Trust me!!"

Quote: AxelWolf

Whatever his reasons or if he could really affect anything is not the point he was at least trying to swindle the players somehow.


No he wasn't. He was sticking his fingers into the backsides of the players while on the table. A lot of dealers do this to this to their players, and sometimes for reason. It's a little like being on an Internet forum, but while dealing on a casino table. Get a job as a casino dealer, and you'll find yourself saying some things to some people at some times, - or to yourself after clocking out. You'll be surprised at yourself.

Quote: AxelWolf

Threat of the law and being caught doesn't discourage everybody.


That's for sure. There aren't enough people doing the time they deserve, in my opinion.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
ShineyShine
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January 14th, 2015 at 11:43:50 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: AxelWolf

BS! unless you don't think dealers colluding with players is cheating. Didn't a roulette dealer just get busted for telling players what to bet on?





No he wasn't. He was sticking his fingers into the backsides of the players while on the table.



It might not even have been this...I get asked all the time what the next number will be when dealing roulette. I usually just pick a random number out of the air, if it hits you look great, if it doesn't, who cares?
kewlj
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January 14th, 2015 at 11:46:02 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


There aren't enough people doing the time they deserve, in my opinion.


Yeah, you would like to put all players playing casino games, completely within the rules of the game, but who have the audacity to think a little bit....in jail. Lol.

I will give you that there is much less company sponsored dealer cheating going on in today's world of corporate casinos. Too much too lose. But there still are some rouge dealers floating around, doing things like dealing seconds. Especially if you get off the beaten trail and away from the lights of the strip. Hit up some of the smaller casinos, scattered throughout the small town of Nevada and you will still plenty of dealer cheating, with or without the blessing of the company.
Paigowdan
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January 14th, 2015 at 11:46:26 PM permalink
Quote: ShineyShine


It might not even have been this...I get asked all the time what the next number will be when dealing roulette. I usually just pick a random number out of the air, if it hits you look great, if it doesn't, who cares?



Exactly.
Who knows? Who expects you to know?
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxelWolf
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January 14th, 2015 at 11:52:30 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: AxelWolf

BS! unless you don't think dealers colluding with players is cheating. Didn't a roulette dealer just get busted for telling players what to bet on?


Yes, I think a dealer colluding with players is cheating, if they're making real money at it. But a Roulette dealer telling the players what numbers to bet on next spin (like the Amazing Kreskin) is simply a Roulette dealer sticking his fingers into the players' backsides. I dealt craps for years, and I used to tell players who were a pain in the butt: "Yeah, Boxcars is coming out on the very next roll!! Bet the table max on it, and see what happens!! Trust me!!"


No he wasn't. He was sticking his fingers into the backsides of the players while on the table. A lot of dealers do this to this to their players, and sometimes for reason. It's a little like being on an Internet forum, but while dealing on a casino table. Get a job as a casino dealer, and you'll find yourself saying some things to some people at some times, - or to yourself after clocking out. You'll be surprised at yourself.


That's for sure. There aren't enough people doing the time they deserve, in my opinion.

GREAT im glad you don't consider what that dealer was doing as cheating. I didn't think you would. Yet you consider card counting cheating.

Now for some recent reports of dealer cheating, something that you claim doesn't happen anymore.

Harrah’s blackjack dealer sought in cheating scheme
http://theadvocate.com/news/neworleans/neworleansnews/9484633-123/harrahs-blackjack-dealer-sought-in
Blackjack Dealer at Twin River Caught Cheating
http://localsonly401.com/2014/06/13/blackjack-dealer-at-twin-river-caught-cheating/
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
ShineyShine
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January 14th, 2015 at 11:53:38 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Yeah, you would like to put all players playing casino games, completely within the rules of the game, but who have the audacity to think a little bit....in jail. Lol.

I will give you that there is much less company sponsored dealer cheating going on in today's world of corporate casinos. Too much too lose. But there still are some rouge dealers floating around, doing things like dealing seconds. Especially if you get off the beaten trail and away from the lights of the strip. Hit up some of the smaller casinos, scattered throughout the small town of Nevada and you will still plenty of dealer cheating, with or without the blessing of the company.



Really? Why would they? Not saying i don't believe you, just genuinely baffled as to why they would, unless they're encouraged to by the management.

edit: just to clarify, i wouldn't do this even with encouragement from the management. I'd hand my notice in straight away in this case. I mentioned that as a rationale as to why they would, i.e they wouldn't lose their job, probably perks thrown to them, etc.
Paigowdan
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January 15th, 2015 at 12:00:58 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Yeah, you would like to put all players playing casino games, completely within the rules of the game, but who have the audacity to think a little bit....in jail. Lol.



People aren't put into jails because of how their minds move, outside of North Korea.
People are put into jails because of how their hands move, only saying "oh, I was just thinking that - Ignore my hands..."

Quote: kewlj

I will give you that there is much less company sponsored dealer cheating going on in today's world of corporate casinos. Too much too lose. But there still are some rouge dealers floating around, doing things like dealing seconds. Especially if you get off the beaten trail and away from the lights of the strip. Hit up some of the smaller casinos, scattered throughout the small town of Nevada and you will still plenty of dealer cheating, with or without the blessing of the company.



If you don't or can't trust casinos, then don't play in casinos. I say that you can. If you play in casinos, you're saying that they are either trustworthy, or that that are not trustworthy, but that you're really stupid for playing in a place you cannot trust. Usually any suspicion is pure projection on the part of the player.

There is no other scenario.

I'd go so far as to say that there is essentially almost no dealer cheating, in comparison to player cheating, concerning players who can walk in off the street and try any shot they want. Dealers are screened and licensed, and players can be any one who walks in off the street. Half of the players couldn't get a job as a dealer, and the other half who can wouldn't want it for the money. You end up with honest, dead-center middle class working people working in these jobs, to God-knows-what walking into the joint, or posting on the internet on how to kill them or blame them.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
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January 15th, 2015 at 12:07:39 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: AxelWolf

BS! unless you don't think dealers colluding with players is cheating. Didn't a roulette dealer just get busted for telling players what to bet on?


Yes, I think a dealer colluding with players is cheating, if they're making real money at it. But a Roulette dealer telling the players what numbers to bet on next spin (like the Amazing Kreskin) is simply a Roulette dealer sticking his fingers into the players' backsides. I dealt craps for years, and I used to tell players who were a pain in the butt: "Yeah, Boxcars is coming out on the very next roll!! Bet the table max on it, and see what happens!! Trust me!!"


No he wasn't. He was sticking his fingers into the backsides of the players while on the table. A lot of dealers do this to this to their players, and sometimes for reason. It's a little like being on an Internet forum, but while dealing on a casino table. Get a job as a casino dealer, and you'll find yourself saying some things to some people at some times, - or to yourself after clocking out. You'll be surprised at yourself.


That's for sure. There aren't enough people doing the time they deserve, in my opinion.

GREAT im glad you don't consider what that dealer was doing as cheating. I didn't think you would. Yet you consider card counting cheating.

Now for some recent reports of dealer cheating, something that you claim doesn't happen anymore.

Harrah’s blackjack dealer sought in cheating scheme
http://theadvocate.com/news/neworleans/neworleansnews/9484633-123/harrahs-blackjack-dealer-sought-in
Blackjack Dealer at Twin River Caught Cheating
http://localsonly401.com/2014/06/13/blackjack-dealer-at-twin-river-caught-cheating/



In these cases, the dealer was colluding with a player, and acting like a player with the player.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
ShineyShine
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January 15th, 2015 at 12:19:29 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: AxelWolf

BS! unless you don't think dealers colluding with players is cheating. Didn't a roulette dealer just get busted for telling players what to bet on?


Yes, I think a dealer colluding with players is cheating, if they're making real money at it. But a Roulette dealer telling the players what numbers to bet on next spin (like the Amazing Kreskin) is simply a Roulette dealer sticking his fingers into the players' backsides. I dealt craps for years, and I used to tell players who were a pain in the butt: "Yeah, Boxcars is coming out on the very next roll!! Bet the table max on it, and see what happens!! Trust me!!"


No he wasn't. He was sticking his fingers into the backsides of the players while on the table. A lot of dealers do this to this to their players, and sometimes for reason. It's a little like being on an Internet forum, but while dealing on a casino table. Get a job as a casino dealer, and you'll find yourself saying some things to some people at some times, - or to yourself after clocking out. You'll be surprised at yourself.


That's for sure. There aren't enough people doing the time they deserve, in my opinion.

GREAT im glad you don't consider what that dealer was doing as cheating. I didn't think you would. Yet you consider card counting cheating.

Now for some recent reports of dealer cheating, something that you claim doesn't happen anymore.

Harrah’s blackjack dealer sought in cheating scheme
http://theadvocate.com/news/neworleans/neworleansnews/9484633-123/harrahs-blackjack-dealer-sought-in
Blackjack Dealer at Twin River Caught Cheating
http://localsonly401.com/2014/06/13/blackjack-dealer-at-twin-river-caught-cheating/



In these cases, the dealer was colluding with a player, and acting like a player with the player.



Yeah i don't think this is what the op was referring to as cheating dealers. I took the title of the thread to mean cheating dealers on behalf of the casino. Could be wrong though.
kewlj
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January 15th, 2015 at 12:22:23 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

People aren't put into jails because of how their minds move, outside of North Korea.
People are put into jails because of how their hands move, only saying "oh, I was just thinking that - Ignore my hands..."



If you don't or can't trust casinos, then don't play in casinos. I say that you can. If you play in casinos, you're saying that they are either trustworthy, or that that are not trustworthy, but that you're really stupid for playing in a place you cannot trust. Usually any suspicion is pure projection on the part of the player.

There is no other scenario.

I'd go so far as to say that there is essentially almost no dealer cheating, in comparison to player cheating, concerning players who can walk in off the street and try any shot they want. Dealers are screened and licensed, and players can be any one who walks in off the street. Half of the players couldn't get a job as a dealer, and the other half who can wouldn't want it for the money. You end up with honest, dead-center middle class working people working in these jobs, to God-knows-what walking into the joint, or posting on the internet on how to kill them or blame them.



I don't know what the hell you are talking about with that last line. I'm lost. :/

I am not the smartest guy in the world. I am not a long-time card shark, or anything like that. But I have witnessed dealers dealing seconds and dealers doing false shuffles at 2 different casinos in Nevada, one an hour outside of Vegas the other up north. I immediately stopped playing both. Quite frankly, I don't feel comfortable at this type of small town casino now because of it. I figure those are the two things that I saw and recognized. I probably encountered more such activity that I was not familiar with. I feel like there is no oversight in these situations. It almost feels like you are stepping back in time 30 years. Yeah, they fall under Nevada gaming commission. And someone from NGC probably stops in every 5 years to say hi.

The exact same feeling I have about tribal casinos. I do not feel confident of the oversight, so I forgo playing such places.
AxelWolf
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January 15th, 2015 at 12:41:58 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, I think a dealer colluding with players is cheating
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In these cases, the dealer was colluding with a player, and acting like a player with the player.

Dealers can and do cheat. I believe dealers cheating the players is rare however it's not impossible.

Either way dealers/pit have freely admitted cheating players out of comps and intentionally lying and flagging low tippers as counters and cheats.

Casino employees are no more honorable than the general public.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
mcallister3200
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January 15th, 2015 at 12:50:04 AM permalink
Back when there were like three casino games it was probably more common. Nowadays, most dealers flat our are not skilled enough to cheat. If a dealer doesn't deal craps nowadays, they are expected to deal a good half dozen games leaving them versatile but a master of none (sometimes that works in players favor :) If they are skilled enough, you would be unlikely to notice it unless you yourself are a cheat (takes one to know one just like anything else.) Possible but rare, nowadays when there's cheating going on in casinos it's usually middle management on up (chip confiscation, rigged promotions).

I've been preferential shuffled on at Fiesta Henderson (on order of pit boss) and Northern Nevada, I consider that cheating but gaming doesn't.
mcallister3200
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January 15th, 2015 at 12:59:04 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

I wasn't around for the really 'good old days' where the dealers rolled decks over, etc... but from my perspective I don't think I've seen very many cheating dealers. I've looked for the ones that pull the 2nd card from the shoe by peeking at the first, dealing seconds in DD, etc. Most of the 'cheating' that is involved now is when you get an uppity 'house' dealer (whom loves it when the players lose) who tries to push your winning bets or take your push bets. Of course there's no way to tell if this is intentional or not, but I will note that I've noticed it happens more often with these types of dealers.



Not sure it goes along with your uppity dealer theory, but there is logical reasoning behind payout mistakes to be made more often in the houses favor. Sometimes a dealer if they are unsure if they already payed an ante bet or something (if players waited till cards were swept up to take payment far less confusion would happen, but it's not player fault.) they will choose not to pay it at the moment because "Player will point it out if I missed it, but if I pay him twice he wont." And that would be true of most players myself included.

I also think there's a significantly higher than non-zero chance that your take/push observation is more of your perception than fact. I'm not implying it's intentional or that it's even the case, it's just a decent chance as I'm sure you don't record every time it happens and circumstances.
DrawingDead
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January 15th, 2015 at 2:23:07 AM permalink
I see this thread is in the Blackjack section, so this will be off-topic for that...

...but a few years ago (like roughly about 4 years ago) the dealers & floor on the late night shift at a Las Vegas area poker room (the name of which rhymes with Planet Hollywood) had their employment abruptly terminated by being read their rights and escorted downtown for complementary fingerprints and plastic sandals. There were a remarkable number of high-hand jackpots being hit in early morning hours on slow weekdays, when poker rooms are mostly empty, depleting the promo fund. You fill in the rest of the story from there. I think it is to their credit and everyone's benefit (yes I did mean to say everyone) that it was dealt with that way when the problem was identified.

A way NOT to deal with it, the absolutely positively WRONG way: At another poker room a manager was systematically under-counting the number of players buying into their tournaments to skim off the difference, with the effect of robbing both the players' prize pool and his employer in the process. He was and is widely regarded as a "really great guy" and was "quietly let go." Rumor has it that he's now working at someone else's poker room, though I haven't gone there to see that.

Even if you never go into poker rooms it is probably obvious that both those examples were incredibly stupid things to do, it is difficult to imagine how in either case anyone could think they'd get by with it indefinitely, but where and when has there ever been a shortage of stupid people who don't think but can concoct a justification for what they feel like doing at the moment? I find there are always people who will jump over an honest dollar to pick up a crooked nickel, and there seems to be about the same proportion of stupid sleazy people inclined to do that there as there is in any other occupation I'm familiar with. Of course most wouldn't do that, but in any group of any size, there's always some. As a group in general I find people who work in gaming tend to have a lot in common with their most dedicated customers, including the range of emotional and character traits. Year one: "Wow this is great, so much better than what I was doing, so lucky I somehow got hired for this." Year three: "Ehh, so hard to make ends meet with all these bills for the house & the new car & whatnot, and the boat I got isn't really very fancy." Year five: "Why do I have to put up with all these @$%*&# customers & supervisors, I'm better than this, they're so lucky to have me, they owe me more." As someone who use to be an employer in another sort of business I'll say that if there aren't effective rigorous systems in place being used consistently to identify and deal with it, you can be 100% sure you're being robbed. Probably by a very popular "great guy." I sincerely hope at least one "great guy" stumbles onto this site occasionally, reads this, and feels more than a little bit nervous.
Suck dope, watch TV, make up stuff, be somebody on the internet.
Greasyjohn
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February 5th, 2015 at 8:54:27 PM permalink
Quote: ShineyShine

Depends what you mean by cheating dealers... if its cheating either against or for the player, then i agree with dan, why would they? And in Axel's roulette case, wasn't that a case of the dealer jokingly saying what they should bet on, and it somehow got misconstrued and out of hand? I remember reading the article on it, but cant remember the exact details.

If by cheating you mean theft from the casino, then this would be far more common. I've personally worked with 2 people that were sacked for robbing chips from the float.



What does the terminology "from the float" mean, please?
ontariodealer
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February 6th, 2015 at 12:06:44 AM permalink
Quote: Greasyjohn

What does the terminology "from the float" mean, please?



it means taking chips from their tray and pocketing them.
get second you pig
Greasyjohn
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February 6th, 2015 at 1:34:10 AM permalink
Thanks. I'd never heard that before.
Greasyjohn
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February 6th, 2015 at 10:50:21 AM permalink
I remember at Binion's about 15 years ago when all their blackjack tables were SD, 3:2, H17, NDAS. This one dealer had on a belt with a shiny silver buckle. I noticed how he held the deck and it looked like he was using the belt buckle as a shiner. I watched for seconds or anything suspicious and didn't see anything. I think he was just having fun looking at the index of the top card. I could be wrong, but I've read a lot about cheating and know what to look for.
Edge21
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February 6th, 2015 at 11:50:16 AM permalink
Quote: BlackjackKing

I was wondering if anyone had any experience with cheating dealers within the last 5 years or so. I understand that it used to be a big problem in Vegas back in the "good old days", but hopefully not anymore.

That's why you choose your prey wisely when seeking a good table. I like to pick the dealers who just assume I'm a regular gambler and either chat me up a little bit...or none at all. If they're naïve to your game or over-pay I'll treat them a little back. (Only a little...otherwise you lose your edge.) But when I meet those dealers who act like they hate the world or even worse, the player, I avoid them altogether. (Mostly because I don't want to end up going to prison while they end up in the E.R.) So here's my 2 petty cents: Unless a casino had good rules with cool dealers and low heat...avoid them.

Blackjack for Blood discusses a bit about some dealers who know how to flip cards in their favor and take you for everything...those shady s.o.b.s DO exist.


Oh...and I don't care what anyone thinks, but avoid Station Casinos in Las Vegas and Henderson. Ugh

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