davidleinen
davidleinen
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September 11th, 2014 at 2:18:43 PM permalink
I have been practicing counting cards now for a few weeks and while I can accurately count down a single deck in under 30 seconds I am concerned about the actual technique at the tables. Books I have read and websites I have visited have very little information on this subject, in fact most just say if you can count down a deck in 25 seconds with the TV on then it's off to the casino with you! In shoe games I feel I won't have too much trouble since everything is face up and I can adjust the running count as I see first the pairs and then all the hits. However, I have found that when I deal double deck to myself I have trouble with where to start consistently since the order you see the cards in hand held BJ can be highly irregular and inconsistent. Is it easier to adjust the running count as you see them as in a shoe game and hope you don't miss or count twice or is it easier to try and count the round and add/subtract to the previous rounds running count? Granted dealing to myself is probably much more difficult than a casino environment considering I have to play the dealers hand, my hand, and another players hand which by the way I can't count right away because there is no guarantee he would show me his cards right away , all the while keeping counts in my head. What 'system' at the table, especially 2 deck, do you guys use to count? Any advice would be great, thanks! BTW, I am not trying to be a highly advanced counter so I use a simple unbalanced count(KO).

-DAL
Romes
Romes
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September 11th, 2014 at 2:36:33 PM permalink
David, welcome to the forums =). I've also found that prior in my practicing that when I deal to myself I don't usually do the "cancelation" principal in order starting at first base. When I'm at a casino I wait for the 2nd round of cards, and start at first base canceling things out through the table, but when I deal to myself (3-6 player hands) I find I just kind of look down since they're all in front of me and cancel in no particular order.

I'm pretty sure this is because the cards are all grouped straight in front of you (i.e. you dealing to yourself). If you're really worried about it go to the casino and try some back counting (multiple shoes), without playing. This will tell you very quickly, in the casino atmosphere, if you can keep count or not. EVERYONE should do this a few times before they sit down to start betting money.

I see that you're practicing for a pitch game. When you practice at home you can take it to the extreme and deal the other player hands "down," get your count, then play 1 hand at a time, adjusting your count when each hand is revealed. I personally don't think it's an issue if you deal them face up though. In fact, I think that's more challenging if you keep your speed up because you have more cards to make sense of before even playing strategy.

For the rest of your post, I use hi-low. When I'm at a casino I always try to start my count with first base AFTER the 2nd cards start coming out. For a pitch game just take count of what you can and continue when the hands are shown for the cameras. I also hope when you're counting a deck down that you've graduated to the 3 (or more) card approach. This will help you a lot with the pitch games because they turn up 3+ cards for the cameras then sweep them away all the time. In case you're not aware of the method, when counting a deck down grab 3 cards at a time, flip, and continue with 3 cards at a time until the deck is done. You might even want to try 4 when you've gotten good at 3 because again I can see this helping a lot with them flipping 3+ cards over in the pitch games.

If you haven't actually counted in a casino, there's a checklist that I hope you've run through. Specifically for new counters such as yourself, I just released an A-Z Card Counting thread that I suggest you go through to double check you've studied more than just counting. As just being able to keep count is not enough to beat the casino. My thread can be found here.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Wanderer
Wanderer
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September 11th, 2014 at 3:11:10 PM permalink
When I play at a pitch table, which is all I play nowadays, I don't count the cards of other players until after the dealer draws. The exception would be if the player busts and their cards are taken up right then. When they show the cards of busted hands, I will count them. Otherwise, I wait until it's all said and done. I don't even count my own cards until then.
1BB
1BB
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September 11th, 2014 at 3:33:52 PM permalink
Sorry, guys. Counting down a deck is a neat parlor trick but has little to do with live table action. I can count down a deck in less than 15 seconds. Does that mean I make twice as much as someone who takes 30 seconds? I wish. Who controls the speed of the game, you or the dealer? Practice something more meaningful and reap the benefits.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
RS
RS
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September 11th, 2014 at 4:31:07 PM permalink
When at the tables, wait until all cards are dealt (everyone has 2 cards and dealers up card). For starting off, count each hand (2 card combo). If you're using HiLo, the hand will be either -2, -1, 0, +1, or +2. After some practice, you'll be able to cancel out multiple hands. One player has 5,6 other has T,T so you can cancel them off.

When counting down a deck, start off with 1 card at a time. Then try 2 at a time. Then 3 at a time.

Remember accuracy is more important than speed. After you're 100% accurate, speed it up. Go through the cards faster than you are comfortable with, so you make your mind have to count the cards that have already been dealt but more cards are coming out already.
OnceDear
OnceDear
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September 11th, 2014 at 4:50:14 PM permalink
Hi David, I asked a similar question https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/18783-counting-techniques-not-systems/#post374848 though that related to face up BJ. It did get answered pretty well with references to other posts. What I found, again with face up, is that I can scan the table either as cards are dealt, or afterwards and there is little difference in speed. Cancelling Hi against Low soon comes as second nature so that as I scan over a hi-low cancelling pair I dont even change the count in my head. I did find that the act of saying the count to myself in my head was taking the same time as saying out loud, so think 'm' instead of minus and try not to think the count until a pair of cards are seen that dont cancel out. Visit the live blackjack tables at any of the online casinos where you can watch games and practice without playing. low value tables are dealt slow enough for a beginner and higher stakes tables are dealt faster, so you can practice at different paces. crtainly keep a running count and don't try to count each round in isolation.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
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September 11th, 2014 at 7:46:42 PM permalink
Welcome to the forum, David! I'm not a counter, so have nothing to add.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
davidleinen
davidleinen
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September 11th, 2014 at 8:35:01 PM permalink
Thanks for the replies guys!
Wanderer
Wanderer
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September 11th, 2014 at 8:35:04 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

Sorry, guys. Counting down a deck is a neat parlor trick but has little to do with live table action. I can count down a deck in less than 15 seconds. Does that mean I make twice as much as someone who takes 30 seconds? I wish. Who controls the speed of the game, you or the dealer? Practice something more meaningful and reap the benefits.



While I think the OP posed a legitimate question because counting in a casino can be different from counting in your own home, I do agree that working to build extreme counting speed is unnecessary. I can count through a deck in 21-22 seconds. That's fast enough to do the job. If I worked to shave a few more seconds off it wouldn't make any difference in my game play whatsoever, so I don't bother with it.
davidleinen
davidleinen
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September 11th, 2014 at 8:49:01 PM permalink
Yes, speed is not the issue here as I said I can count down a single deck in right at 25secs. I'm not trying to boast or anything but that part is not the problem for me. In fact, most of the shoe games I play at in my local joint have a horrible side bet that has a weird payout and most of the ploppies play them. Even if none of them win it still takes time to take their bets even before anyone has taken any hits on their BJ hands! It's more about method and process and I am more interested in peoples actual techniques, especially at face down 2 deck games. I know from experience that some players will show you their hand and some will not. Even those that do show you do not do it EVERY time and I gather an important aspect of counting is CONSISTENCY! Do you wait until all the hands are turned up or do you count whatever you can see right away? I know that if you are using a strategy matrix it's best to count everything you can see right away but I find this approach to be more prone to error from counting things twice. For instance, I find that even in shoe games counting the dealers card first, which lots of folks do, to be rather distracting because you naturally want to count in pairs and if say the dealer up card was a SIX and she flips her hole card for a TEN you might count zero and not -1 as you should if the up-card is always your first count. I am interested in card counters methods in that respect. Thanks for the replies so far!
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