I need to know the mathematical calculation
Of course, it is absolutely impossible if the wager is for the amount of ten dollars to lose forty-five cents. What is actually meant is that some demented bean-counter wearing a green eye shade who does gambling math all day long and happens to pass by that table will, if he happens to direct his glance at the two red chips, see a bright shiny quarter and two bright shiny dimes that are not really there at all.Quote: geoffFor every $100 dollars you wager they will take $.45. If you are doing $10 hands then you will lose 4.5 cents per hand on average.
The Player can lose ten dollars or he can win ten dollars or he can win fifteen dollars ... and if there are splits etc it gets even more complicated.
As the evening wears on, the player will consume alcohol and enjoy its effect as we as enjoying the effects of the casinos fest atmosphere. Play, probably never optimal, will deteriorate and accelerate. And will continue until some definite time rather than some theoretical time. Theoretical time is seen only by the green eye shade types.
Quote: FleaStiffOf course, it is absolutely impossible if the wager is for the amount of ten dollars to lose forty-five cents. What is actually meant is that some demented bean-counter wearing a green eye shade who does gambling math all day long and happens to pass by that table will, if he happens to direct his glance at the two red chips, see a bright shiny quarter and two bright shiny dimes that are not really there at all.
The Player can lose ten dollars or he can win ten dollars or he can win fifteen dollars ... and if there are splits etc it gets even more complicated.
As the evening wears on, the player will consume alcohol and enjoy its effect as we as enjoying the effects of the casinos fest atmosphere. Play, probably never optimal, will deteriorate and accelerate. And will continue until some definite time rather than some theoretical time. Theoretical time is seen only by the green eye shade types.
No, 10 loses 4.5 cents. Losing 45 cents on every 10 dollar bet sounds like madness. I'm debating if blackjack is even worth it if you are both not rich and a solid poker player.
Quote: Lemieux66So I'm theoretically making 5 cents every hundred dollar bet I do at TC of 1. Oy.
This is why counters have huge bet spreads. Since the return is a percentage the higher your bet is when the count is in your favor the more you will make overall.
Quote: Lemieux66No, 10 loses 4.5 cents. Losing 45 cents on every 10 dollar bet sounds like madness. I'm debating if blackjack is even worth it if you are both not rich and a solid poker player.
I would completely stick with poker unless you are hole carding or some other form of AP, just know that Face and I will be looking for you :)
The casino can expect to hold 0.45 cents for every $100 you wager. That cannot change unless the rules of the game changes. You can get that down to approximately $0.40 cents with perfect basic strategy and give yourself around about a $0.60 cents advantage with a great spread on this particular game while card counting.
Poker is much more profitable if you are a decent player and can spot guys like the guy who is now on a 3 day ban for insulting a group of people who shall remain nameless......
Blackjack and counting. Only good or earning comps (LOL) - Just a joke!
Don't worry about these guys catching you. It probably won't happen. I'd be more worried about honing your math skills a bit (your initial question is something that you should know how to figure out without asking for help). Multiplying edge by amount bet to get expectation is the most basic of all gambling math calculations.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceBlackjack is not worth it for red or green chips. At the black chip level it can get quite profitable. Of course this requires a decent bankroll. The nice thing about blackjack is that as you start to play higher, the rules get better, which is another way of saying that the game is easier to beat. Poker is the opposite.
Don't worry about these guys catching you. It probably won't happen. I'd be more worried about honing your math skills a bit (your initial question is something that you should know how to figure out without asking for help). Multiplying edge by amount bet to get expectation is the most basic of all gambling math calculations.
Only reason he doesn't have to worry about me is because I'm on a different continent alltogether......otherwise be afraid, be very afraid :)
Quote: Lemieux66So I'm theoretically making 5 cents every hundred dollar bet I do at TC of 1. Oy.
No. you're breaking even at TC +1.
Quote: tringlomaneYeah, poker is an easier, more consistent way to make money if you are one of the better players at the table. I wished I loved NLHE like everyone else does. Most casino players are terrible at the lowest limits.
This is true. It depends where you play though. Poker play is very dependant on the personality of the casino. If they promote dancing and parties...PLAY THERE!
Quote: TomspurI would completely stick with poker unless you are hole carding or some other form of AP, just know that Face and I will be looking for you :)
The casino can expect to hold 0.45 cents for every $100 you wager. That cannot change unless the rules of the game changes. You can get that down to approximately $0.40 cents with perfect basic strategy and give yourself around about a $0.60 cents advantage with a great spread on this particular game while card counting.
Poker is much more profitable if you are a decent player and can spot guys like the guy who is now on a 3 day ban for insulting a group of people who shall remain nameless......
Blackjack and counting. Only good or earning comps (LOL) - Just a joke!
I don't think it's a joke!
Quote: Lemieux66I don't think it's a joke!
So you make your living off card counting? Good luck.
Quote: TomspurSo you make your living off card counting? Good luck.
No no. Exact opposite. I feel it's only good for the comps. Considering my bankroll, absolutely.
Quote: Lemieux66No no. Exact opposite. I feel it's only good for the comps. Considering my bankroll, absolutely.
Sorry, I misunderstood :)
Quote: TomspurSorry, I misunderstood :)
Actually, there is an exception. If you can get some people together to pool money(trustworthy people of course) you can then bet properly and big and look like a whale for casinos. Getting rooms and big match plays are always nice.
You do need a bankroll though.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceDon't believe what the surveillance guys tell you. Lots of people make a living playing blackjack. Some even post to this forum.
You do need a bankroll though.
If I can smash a high poker bad beat...hey hey as the man says lol
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceDon't believe what the surveillance guys tell you. Lots of people make a living playing blackjack. Some even post to this forum.
You do need a bankroll though.
You really do need to read posts better. I said that if he were to hole card both Face and I would be on him like white on rice (I added the last bit for effect).
I still however believe that you cannot make a comfortable living solely out of counting unless you have a weak game to attack and a large roll (as you mentioned).
Remember and this is a big one folks.....I'm not only a Surveillance employee but I also like gambling, otherwise what am I doing here? :)
Quote: TomspurYou really do need to read posts better. I said that if he were to hole card both Face and I would be on him like white on rice (I added the last bit for effect).
Yes (although I doubt that too) but then you also said "So you make your living off card counting? Good luck."
As for the hole carding thing, I find it interesting that if the dealer is showing the player the hole card, and the player is making the correct decision as a result, your solution is to go after the player. Isn't the more obvious solution to get the dealer to stop showing the player the hole card? Going after the player is only effective until the next player shows up, but getting the dealer to stop showing the hole card is effective forever...
Quote:I still however believe that you cannot make a comfortable living solely out of counting unless you have a weak game to attack and a large roll (as you mentioned).
Large bankroll is definitely a must. I'm not sure what you mean by "weak game".
Quote:Remember and this is a big one folks.....I'm not only a Surveillance employee but I also like gambling, otherwise what am I doing here? :)
Taking notes?
What do you like to play? Do you look for an edge?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceYes (although I doubt that too) but then you also said "So you make your living off card counting? Good luck."
As for the hole carding thing, I find it interesting that if the dealer is showing the player the hole card, and the player is making the correct decision as a result, your solution is to go after the player. Isn't the more obvious solution to get the dealer to stop showing the player the hole card? Going after the player is only effective until the next player shows up, but getting the dealer to stop showing the hole card is effective forever...
Large bankroll is definitely a must. I'm not sure what you mean by "weak game".
Taking notes?
What do you like to play? Do you look for an edge?
My comment about the card counting and needing luck ties in with my next comment that says I don't believe that you can make a comfortable living. Weak game I meant from the casino's perspective so bad rules.
We absolutely go after the dealers, however there are many AP's out there who do whatever they can to distract the dealer and to make them nervous and so on and so forth. I'm not saying anything against them, just that it is what it is. It is our job to give information to the table games team and they can choose to do with the info whatever they like. Surveillance doesn't ban or 86 anybody. We simply observe and report.
I don't need to take notes here. I know more than enough about almost all cheating methods and AP's to make my team effective. I also believe in new age surveillance where we don't ONLY stare ot large breasted cocktail waitresses :)
Lastly I enjoy blackjack and craps. I do count down a few double decks every now and again. I play very solid basic strategy but I'm problably not a very good counter. I don't want to be. I gamble because I enjoy it. I make enough money in my job for me not to worry about an income from the tables.
I don't necessarily look for an edge but I do know what they look like if they slapped me in the face. I have no moral compass. If I see an opportunity and I can take advantage of it, I will irrespective of whether I'm a casino employee or not. (Obviously not the particular casino where I'm working.....that isn't what I mean)
Please not that phrase again you will upset DJatc. And the only white on his rice is LouieQuote: TomspurI would be on him like white on rice
Quote: TomspurMy comment about the card counting and needing luck ties in with my next comment that says I don't believe that you can make a comfortable living. Weak game I meant from the casino's perspective so bad rules.
We absolutely go after the dealers, however there are many AP's out there who do whatever they can to distract the dealer and to make them nervous and so on and so forth. I'm not saying anything against them, just that it is what it is. It is our job to give information to the table games team and they can choose to do with the info whatever they like. Surveillance doesn't ban or 86 anybody. We simply observe and report.
I understand this. It makes sense -- if a player is causing a normally good dealer to do a bad job, then obviously you don't want them there. I would never go this far, but if the dealer is going to show it to me, I'm going to look. I have literally spotted hole cards from across the room before (annoyingly, when I sat down, I couldn't see it)
Actually, I'm curious as to how this really works. Who makes the backoff/ban/let them play decision?
Quote:I don't need to take notes here. I know more than enough about almost all cheating methods and AP's to make my team effective. I also believe in new age surveillance where we don't ONLY stare ot large breasted cocktail waitresses :)
Well, yes, but you can always learn something new. There are some very good players here -- I know that I learn a lot.
Quote:Lastly I enjoy blackjack and craps. I do count down a few double decks every now and again. I play very solid basic strategy but I'm problably not a very good counter. I don't want to be. I gamble because I enjoy it. I make enough money in my job for me not to worry about an income from the tables.
lol. I don't need the money either, but I want it! I like playing games and I like winning. I would never quit my job to play pro unless I really thought I could make a million a year, sustained (that is a lot more than I make at my current job, but a large raise is necessary to cover the lack of benefits, the variance of the game, and the uncertainty of the game being there tomorrow)
Quote:I don't necessarily look for an edge but I do know what they look like if they slapped me in the face. I have no moral compass. If I see an opportunity and I can take advantage of it, I will irrespective of whether I'm a casino employee or not. (Obviously not the particular casino where I'm working.....that isn't what I mean)
That seems reasonable. I don't think that it shows a lack of moral compass. When you go to work you do the best job that you can, because they pay you to and it would be wrong not to. When you are out playing, you will play as well as you can within the rules. Sounds pretty moral to me...
Quote: AxelWolfPlease not that phrase again you will upset DJatc. And the only white on his rice is Louie
Funny....:)
I will retract. I would be on him like a spider monkey :)
Quote: Lemieux66So I'm theoretically making 5 cents every hundred dollar bet I do at TC of 1. Oy.
Actually, not to rain on your parade, but if you couldn't calculate that simple math question on your own, counting may hurt you more than help.
Quote: TomspurMy comment about the card counting and needing luck ties in with my next comment that says I don't believe that you can make a comfortable living. Weak game I meant from the casino's perspective so bad rules.
We absolutely go after the dealers, however there are many AP's out there who do whatever they can to distract the dealer and to make them nervous and so on and so forth. I'm not saying anything against them, just that it is what it is. It is our job to give information to the table games team and they can choose to do with the info whatever they like. Surveillance doesn't ban or 86 anybody. We simply observe and report.
I don't need to take notes here. I know more than enough about almost all cheating methods and AP's to make my team effective. I also believe in new age surveillance where we don't ONLY stare ot large breasted cocktail waitresses :)
Lastly I enjoy blackjack and craps. I do count down a few double decks every now and again. I play very solid basic strategy but I'm problably not a very good counter. I don't want to be. I gamble because I enjoy it. I make enough money in my job for me not to worry about an income from the tables.
I don't necessarily look for an edge but I do know what they look like if they slapped me in the face. I have no moral compass. If I see an opportunity and I can take advantage of it, I will irrespective of whether I'm a casino employee or not. (Obviously not the particular casino where I'm working.....that isn't what I mean)
What kinds of things can I do to distract dealer? In the past, I have bet odd amounts, which has confused them and resulted in mispays. Most recently, in a game without surrender, I would bet in 50 cent increments, and the dealers were rounding UP when I received a blackjack. What else can I do?
Quote: SonuvabishActually, not to rain on your parade, but if you couldn't calculate that simple math question on your own, counting may hurt you more than help.
No, I'm just odd. I'm able to keep perfect counts, but just didn't know that. I saw when the TC increased by 1 that increased my chances of actually winning the hand by a half percent. If I knew THIS equation as well I would never play a single hand. Now I do.
Quote: Lemieux66No, I'm just odd. I'm able to keep perfect counts, but just didn't know that. I saw when the TC increased by 1 that increased my chances of actually winning the hand by a half percent. If I knew THIS equation as well I would never play a single hand. Now I do.
To quote myself, it's strange how when I get into a 60-40 in poker I expect to lose but when my TC in BJ is somehow at 10 I think I'm a damn LOCK. Terrible mindset.
Quote: Lemieux66No, I'm just odd. I'm able to keep perfect counts, but just didn't know that. I saw when the TC increased by 1 that increased my chances of actually winning the hand by a half percent. If I knew THIS equation as well I would never play a single hand. Now I do.
No, that's incorrect. It does not increase your chance of winning the hand by 0.5%, it increases your expectation by 0.5% of your bet.
Quote: SonuvabishWhat kinds of things can I do to distract dealer? In the past, I have bet odd amounts, which has confused them and resulted in mispays. Most recently, in a game without surrender, I would bet in 50 cent increments, and the dealers were rounding UP when I received a blackjack. What else can I do?
Not very tough to distract a dealer at all. Barber poling (as you have suggested), conversation, making a scene, asking to talk to the floor supervisor. The dealer will be trying to listen to what you are saying instead of concentrating o the game.
I could go on all day long but i won't :)
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceNo, that's incorrect. It does not increase your chance of winning the hand by 0.5%, it increases your expectation by 0.5% of your bet.
But what does it actually mean for the odds of winning the hand? I mean it should get better right?
Your odds of winning don't really go up very much. Most of the value comes from doubles/splits/blackjack. You do technically have a better chance of winning, but it never hits 50% and the higher the count gets the more likely you'll see a push (20 vs 20 at a TC of 12 is very annoying)Quote: Lemieux66But what does it actually mean for the odds of winning the hand? I mean it should get better right?
Quote: geoffYour odds of winning don't really go up very much. Most of the value comes from doubles/splits/blackjack. You do technically have a better chance of winning, but it never hits 50% and the higher the count gets the more likely you'll see a push (20 vs 20 at a TC of 12 is very annoying)
You just changed my life, sir.
Quote: Lemieux66But what does it actually mean for the odds of winning the hand? I mean it should get better right?
Yes, it goes up. I don't know by how much. Almost certainly less than 0.25%
I'd suggest focusing less on how many hands you win and more on how much money you win. A blackjack hand (under standard rules where you can resplit up to 4 hands and double after split) can have results between +8 and -8 bets.
Quote: Lemieux66You just changed my life, sir.
You should buy some blackjack books if you want to play seriously. If you just wing it I think you are likely to get crushed. I think that in another thread I suggested that maybe it was ok not to, but that was before I realized that you don't understand the game at all.
This is not meant as an insult -- it's advice that I'm sure is good. Do with it what you will.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceYou should buy some blackjack books if you want to play seriously. If you just wing it I think you are likely to get crushed. I think that in another thread I suggested that maybe it was ok not to, but that was before I realized that you don't understand the game at all.
This is not meant as an insult -- it's advice that I'm sure is good. Do with it what you will.
I really didn't. I mean I knew how to count, and I learned the indices well. I just wasnt aware what each specific dollar amount actually was worth to me at different true counts and obviously that's the whole thing.
The biggest take away though is how you basically have to be a black chip player to really make money at it. Considering I'm not(without a monstrously high risk of ruin) there is really no point.
Quote: Lemieux66I really didn't. I mean I knew how to count, and I learned the indices well. I just wasnt aware what each specific dollar amount actually was worth to me at different true counts and obviously that's the whole thing.
I just don't understand how you can gamble with an advantage at any game without understanding that your edge times the amount you bet is your expected profit. That is the whole basis of gambling.
FWIW, this concept is important in poker as well -- maybe even more so, because at least it's theoretically possible to just play blackjack in a rote fashion (although I would not recommend it) but it's absolutely not possible for poker.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI just don't understand how you can gamble with an advantage at any game without understanding that your edge times the amount you bet is your expected profit. That is the whole basis of gambling.
FWIW, this concept is important in poker as well -- maybe even more so, because at least it's theoretically possible to just play blackjack in a rote fashion (although I would not recommend it) but it's absolutely not possible for poker.
My poker knowledge is worlds above my blackjack knowledge. One reason I never agreed with Paisello in that thread lol
Quote: Lemieux66My poker knowledge is worlds above my blackjack knowledge. One reason I never agreed with Paisello in that thread lol
Yeah ok.
But, suppose there is a $600 pot and I bet $200 all-in on the end (you have me covered and we are heads-up). How do you evaluate whether you should call or fold?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceYeah ok.
But, suppose there is a $600 pot and I bet $200 all-in on the end (you have me covered and we are heads-up). How do you evaluate whether you should call or fold?
Pot odds?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceYeah ok.
But, suppose there is a $600 pot and I bet $200 all-in on the end (you have me covered and we are heads-up). How do you evaluate whether you should call or fold?
As usual in poker, it's the math and the man. Although if a person is willing to play heads up, which isn't common, you need to be willing to make tough calls.
Quote: TomspurPot odds?
Pot odds are important but it's not the end all and be all...HOWEVER heads up they are pretty damn important.
Quote: Lemieux66Pot odds are important but it's not the end all and be all...HOWEVER heads up they are pretty damn important.
Yeah, I know, this is my point. Do you know what the pot odds are? Do you know what they mean and how they should affect your decision? In one sentence, when should you call here? And, why?
If p is your probability of winning the hand, what is your expectation if you call?
Quote: Lemieux66Pot odds are important but it's not the end all and be all...HOWEVER heads up they are pretty damn important.
Hence my question to Axiom. I don't stare blindly into the exact calculation of pot odds. I want to trap and feed mostly when I play. If I get into a juicy hand with a fish I want to make sure I derive value from the hand when I know I have the best of it. When he shoves, even when he shoves light, I'm going to call him down. If he beats me, so be it and some people might say that I had no odds calling the small all in, I would argue and say that "I was committed" (Just to piss them off eve more :) )
Quote: TomspurHence my question to Axiom.
Did you ask me a question?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceDid you ask me a question?
There was a question mark after my sentence so I guess I did.
I will attempt to be clearer next time :)
