Table analyzer through surveillance system - the end of AP?

Quote: Rorry

JG's book gives many ways to work with these arising issues. MindPlay was a flop anyways though...

MindPlay used special cards that could be read as they were coming out of the shoe. It was partly a flop because gamblers avoided any game with these decks. If you could reliably do it with image recognition, then players would have more trouble spotting the equipped tables.

Many many professional gamblers feel that the casinos would make far more money if they actually honored the successful card counters. For every dollar they give to the AP, they would earn another ten from wannabees. The casino should give them a plaque and a bottle of champagne when they win a certain amount, and then invite them to come back in a week. Casino owners have a serious case of not seeing the forest because of the trees.

Beat the Dealer basically created the blackjack phenomena.

Quote: pacomartin

MindPlay used special cards that could be read as they were coming out of the shoe. It was partly a flop because gamblers avoided any game with these decks. If you could reliably do it with image recognition, then players would have more trouble spotting the equipped tables.

Many many professional gamblers feel that the casinos would make far more money if they actually honored the successful card counters. For every dollar they give to the AP, they would earn another ten from wannabees. The casino should give them a plaque and a bottle of champagne when they win a certain amount, and then invite them to come back in a week. Casino owners have a serious case of not seeing the forest because of the trees.

Beat the Dealer basically created the blackjack phenomena.

I think their best option is to boot the counter if they have the authority (and if they care, which most shouldn't if they have a life and any grasp on math). But they do stupid things like cut the shoe in half. OK, what if instead of gettin the message and leaving, that just ticks me off? And I don't leave, nor do I play? Now the casino's got an empty seat reserved, a bunch of angry players who keep getting up and leaving, and a dealer who is constantly shuffling. They lose 10 times more money than if they just let me count, it's amazingly dumb.

Quote: Canyonero

Could the casinos do that? Shuffle when the count is high and increase penetration when the count is low. Or is there regulation in place pertaining to that?

Come to think of it, I have seen mid-shoe reshuffles countless times because of operational reasons, so it seems casinos are allowed to do that.

I don't know about the current situation. In the mid-90's, however, I saw this video Blackjack game: 0.25 -- 40 limit, advertised single deck. I fed in a $20 and gave it a play. That damn thing would deal down to the last card if the count was unfavorable. It shuffled as soon as the deck went positive. After a couple of decks, it was obvious it was an unbeatable rip-off.

The venues I play today use a cut card, and cutoff about a deck, or slightly less in six and eight deck games.

Quote:

Many many professional gamblers feel that the casinos would make far more money if they actually honored the successful card counters. For every dollar they give to the AP, they would earn another ten from wannabees. The casino should give them a plaque and a bottle of champagne when they win a certain amount, and then invite them to come back in a week. Casino owners have a serious case of not seeing the forest because of the trees.

It isn't always a matter of good business sense. The ploppies vastly out number advantage players, or even knowledgeable players. How many even know their Basic? It's damned few. The only way the house could be hurt significantly is through team play. That can be detected and protected against.

I have been disinvited from playing for picking up a few hundred while the ploppies were losing thousands. Why shuffle up early to stop that one player from winning while five others are losing more and losing it faster? It isn't business sense. It's butt-hurt managers who don't like the idea that the roles have been reversed, and that they are the chumps to the AP.

I think this thread started as a discussion about some artificial or mechanical method being used to determine the count, and then breaking the shoe at some point where that count gets too high. Theoretically, if the dealer, or even a person standing next to the dealer, were to count cards "manually", and then called for a reshuffle, again determined by the count, would THAT be legal? Even without keeping a count, can the deck be reshuffled on whim?

I know that there are rules, and then there are rules, and not to start another tangent off of the OP, but there is a sign on the table that declares the minimum and maximum bet allowed at a table. Absent "persuasion", how can someone be flat-betted if the table has a range of allowable bets? There has been discussion about what the law, or gaming regulations, say, or are unclear, about whether keeping a count for the purpose of effecting the random outcome of the game of blackjack itself is legal. Well, there is an implied contract inherent in having a placard at the table that defines the rules, including range of wager. Wouldn't that prohibit flat-betting someone? If not, then can they change other rules of engagement? Sorry, no splitting 8's here tonight.

Quote: rhodyBob

I think this thread started as a discussion about some artificial or mechanical method being used to determine the count, and then breaking the shoe at some point where that count gets too high. Theoretically, if the dealer, or even a person standing next to the dealer, were to count cards "manually", and then called for a reshuffle, again determined by the count, would THAT be legal? Even without keeping a count, can the deck be reshuffled on whim?

I know that there are rules, and then there are rules, and not to start another tangent off of the OP, but there is a sign on the table that declares the minimum and maximum bet allowed at a table. Absent "persuasion", how can someone be flat-betted if the table has a range of allowable bets? There has been discussion about what the law, or gaming regulations, say, or are unclear, about whether keeping a count for the purpose of effecting the random outcome of the game of blackjack itself is legal. Well, there is an implied contract inherent in having a placard at the table that defines the rules, including range of wager. Wouldn't that prohibit flat-betting someone? If not, then can they change other rules of engagement? Sorry, no splitting 8's here tonight.

I've seen players ask for, and receive, a shuffle in blackjack. I've never been ballsy enough to try it.

Quote: rhodyBob

I know that there are rules, and then there are rules, and not to start another tangent off of the OP, but there is a sign on the table that declares the minimum and maximum bet allowed at a table. Absent "persuasion", how can someone be flat-betted if the table has a range of allowable bets? There has been discussion about what the law, or gaming regulations, say, or are unclear, about whether keeping a count for the purpose of effecting the random outcome of the game of blackjack itself is legal. Well, there is an implied contract inherent in having a placard at the table that defines the rules, including range of wager. Wouldn't that prohibit flat-betting someone? If not, then can they change other rules of engagement? Sorry, no splitting 8's here tonight.

Casinos frequently raise table minimums but allow players who were there at the time to continue betting at the lower limit. Benny Binion was famous for taking any bet size: your first bet was your limit. I don't know if that meant you could make an initial bet of $10,000 and then spread $10-$10,000 for the rest of the day, though.

Point is, there are several precedents for casinos adjusting the rules for individual players despite table placards. I think it would be allowable as long as the overall set of rules itself was already approved for play. For example, a given set of blackjack rules may be offered at any bet level so flat-betting someone should be okay. I don't believe blackjack with no splitting 8s has ever been approved for play in Nevada, so that probably wouldn't be an allowable rule change.

Yeah, absolutely. I remember (a while ago) I was playing some carnie poker-based game (don't remember which one) which had a posted limit of $300 or $500 or something. At some point they brought a half-million dollars in chips to the table (!!) in chips of a denom I had never seen ($10k I think). About 20 minutes later some guy who was probably famous, but who I didn't recognize, shows up with his entourage and starts betting several thousand a hand. I continued to bet $25/hand. They never changed the placard.

Before I started counting, I asked for a shuffle one time after losing 10 straight hands to start the shoe. Dealer asked the floor who gave me a dirty look, but gave the go ahead anyway.

Quote: rhodyBob

I think this thread started as a discussion about some artificial or mechanical method being used to determine the count, and then breaking the shoe at some point where that count gets too high. Theoretically, if the dealer, or even a person standing next to the dealer, were to count cards "manually", and then called for a reshuffle, again determined by the count, would THAT be legal? Even without keeping a count, can the deck be reshuffled on whim?

I know that there are rules, and then there are rules, and not to start another tangent off of the OP, but there is a sign on the table that declares the minimum and maximum bet allowed at a table. Absent "persuasion", how can someone be flat-betted if the table has a range of allowable bets? There has been discussion about what the law, or gaming regulations, say, or are unclear, about whether keeping a count for the purpose of effecting the random outcome of the game of blackjack itself is legal. Well, there is an implied contract inherent in having a placard at the table that defines the rules, including range of wager. Wouldn't that prohibit flat-betting someone? If not, then can they change other rules of engagement? Sorry, no splitting 8's here tonight.

They can absolutely shuffle at any point when it has nothing to do with the count. When they are shuffling because of the count, it gets tricky, and there are probably circumstances where that would not be OK. The betting ranges shown on the table does not in any way form a contract; first, there is no consideration, and second, even if it had the essential ingredients of a contract, it would be probably be unenforceable since it relates to gambling. They can flat bet anyone they want because that does not constitute fraud, although depending on the circumstances, there could be a modest argument for discrimination.

Quote: Sonuvabish

They can absolutely shuffle at any point when it has nothing to do with the count. When they are shuffling because of the count, it gets tricky, and there are probably circumstances where that would not be OK. The betting ranges shown on the table does not in any way form a contract; first, there is no consideration, and second, even if it had the essential ingredients of a contract, it would be probably be unenforceable since it relates to gambling. They can flat bet anyone they want because that does not constitute fraud, although depending on the circumstances, there could be a modest argument for discrimination.

I believe that officially when a NJ casino "flat bets" someone, what they are doing procedurally is:
1) Changing the table max to the same as the table min
2) Exempting everyone at the table except the counter from the new table limits.

I don't know if there's a legal distinction there or not, but I've read that that is the official procedure for some reason.

Quote: AcesAndEights

I believe that officially when a NJ casino "flat bets" someone, what they are doing procedurally is:
1) Changing the table max to the same as the table min
2) Exempting everyone at the table except the counter from the new table limits.

I don't know if there's a legal distinction there or not, but I've read that that is the official procedure for some reason.

Yup, you even get your own personal sign.