Counting In Vegas

Hey Guys! In July I will be going to Vegas for my 21st birthday (I'm from the North East of the UK) and have been practicing high/low card counting for the past couple of months and have made quite a bit of progress. I have perfect basic strategy and can count a deck in pairs in around 23 seconds (through a lot of repetition on quiet work shifts haha). I have visited numerous local casinos and i've actually found shoe game with £2 bet minimum. So far I have only played basic strategy there (for a profit I might add) but have been able to keep the count, just I haven't acted upon it yet with a low bankroll and not wanting to seem to suspicious so early in my visits to the casino.

It seems like i have a good thing going here, however I was wondering just how realistic it would be for me to card count in Vegas this July with a fairly low bankroll. This is my first time messaging to other counters since learning the 'tricks of the trade' so be nice if I have missed any fairly large holes in my plan :P Cheers in advance!

To be honest, it is not realistic at all, and I am telling you as someone who is against this type of thing, - although MANY many others here at the forum are on your side, and do support you. So I am going to be realistic.

Firstly, It is a very difficult thing to do, and it is not for the newbie or neophyte.


Secondly, this site is not a pure AP site where everyone would say to you: "Great! Fantastic! you want to scam a casino for some extra loose change for shopping - or to cover your trip?? Sounds like a FANTASTIC idea, - just awesome, bloke!!" As strange as this may sound, casino executives not only look at this board, but disagree with the posture that scamming gambling halls for chump change is a righteous thing to do.

It really isn't a great idea, as fantastically "Robin Hood" it seems on the surface.

Casinos can back you off, or ask you to leave, spotting your suspect intentions very quickly. they can also put you into a surveillance network report, basically saying, "watch out for the following scammers, and flat-bet them, or have them leave, including this sorry gentleman." Picture and everything. Realize that casinos do not have to take your blackjack action - or any action - if you are not on the "up-and-up," they'll disallow your play - as they have a right to do - and tell you to see a movie or go bowling. No back-rooming assaults, no police beat-downs, just "We really don't need your business if you are about that." And they would have a very fine point with that.

So You might not be successful, nor should you expect to be successful.

And to ALL AP players and advocates here, let it be known that I absolutely did not mislead this fine gentleman in anyway.

In fact, I think your "Hello - Jolly-O blokes, - I want to be a card-counter, now isn't that awesome!" is a Red Herring to receive such a "Are SERIOUS here?" warning.

Now, the other members can go tell Skellyo what a dishonest low-life I am for alerting him to this possibility, and what a great professional and romantic job it is to siphon money from gambling hall businesses, and how much they'd really love and appreciate that, and how very brilliant this line of thinking is.

It isn't. I don't believe your introduction is serious, and if it is, you're chasing a fool's endeavor.
Gamble to have fun, but if you're looking for a job or for some part-time income source, you may be misleading yourself. And if others here tell you otherwise, then have them finance you in this attempt.

Just being straight up.


Anyway, welcome to the Wizard of Vegas Gamblers' forum, where very few people here will give you the straight dope on things.

Haha, cheers for the honest reply Paigowdan! I'd prefer to be given a true opinion than a view through 'rose tinted'. I understand your scepticism. I've read multiple articles and posts regarding young 'chumps' thinking they can count after watching the infamous '21' and getting caught hook line and sinker the first time they attempt. However, if I was to put it across to you that by the time i reach Vegas in July I can count naturally and peripherally and simply increase my bet when the true count rises, leave when in the green by about $100 and visit multiple casinos over the following 2 weeks. If successful, this would pay for a decent proportion of my trip and surely no casinos will suspect a young lad winning a few games one or two nights over 14?

Again I might be missing some large holes in my plan so any advice/information would be highly appreciated.

Quote: Skellyo

Haha, cheers for the honest reply Paigowdan! I'd prefer to be given a true opinion than a view through 'rose tinted'. I understand your scepticism. I've read multiple articles and posts regarding young 'chumps' thinking they can count after watching the infamous '21' and getting caught hook line and sinker the first time they attempt. However, if I was to put it across to you that by the time i reach Vegas in July I can count naturally and peripherally and simply increase my bet when the true count rises, leave when in the green by about $100 and visit multiple casinos over the following 2 weeks. If successful, this would pay for a decent proportion of my trip and surely no casinos will suspect a young lad winning a few games one or two nights over 14?

No.
Greater and more experienced men than you tried and failed, though a few succeeded well by staying well below the radar. Right off the bat, this doesn't seem to describe you. If a naïve neophyte like you would be counting, they'll be onto you at least as quick.

Maybe you can do it, and be the next James Bond, and go home to Merry Old England with a trunkful of cash like you were James Bond 007 or something, impressing the world (and this very fine board) with your amazing tales of derring-do that will have us in awe and/or stitches.

Quote: Skellyo

Again I might be missing some large holes in my plan so any advice/information would be highly appreciated.

Clearly.
"Don't quit your day time job if you have one."
There's no shame in honest work.

Skellyo, welcome to this board! It's always nice to have new people aboard. I think that in this matter you should not hold your horses because Dan's opinion might be somehow biased (not intentionally I believe). Counting cards is no scam nor against the law. I'd like to make sure you know I am not an AP, I play blackjack recreationally maybe 3 or 4 times an year and I do count for an edge or to break even. I strongly advise you to go on with your plans. Contrary to what Dan said, I don't think that counting cards is awesome or anything like that. Counting cards is something you can do whenever you want. It is true though that you can be backed off. But there are places and places to do it and many different ways as well. My advices for you are:
1. Don't be greedy, 1-8 bet spread should be fine.
2. Play within a denomination you feel comfortable. I'm 25yo and black chip action attracts much more heat for us young guys than to some older well stablished Sir.
3. Most important: try to play with and edge but overall HAVE FUN! It's not like blackjack is your job, you are on vacation!
Hope you find my opinion useful :)

take it from a guy who counts for a profession, as a surveillance manager, it can be done and with a little cover can work easily. you've done your homework, you know what a good game is vs a bad game, you know your bankroll, so lets start. first, to not catch heat, you must, in my opinion, wager well under the $100 max bet bankroll. a bet spread of $5 or $10 flat to $100 will work. don't bet black chips, bet green with a red cap. have a good time, laugh with the other players. if you are playing Double Deck. quit counting if the cut card is coming out during the deal, look around the Casino look AWAY from the table. if you are feeling heat, this will usually dispel the first step in getting caught, which is the floor boss calling surveillance to "run this guy down". you don't want this... ever.. they can backtrack your play quickly and you are done. talk to the floor on the last hand of the shoe, ask him where a good steak is at or something. keeping heat from him is the key.

a good surveillance guy might get the "call" from the pit to check out your play and if you have been counting and playing perfect basic, its all over.
another step to avoid catching heat is to make a bad play with a minimum wager. first the pit must be watching or its all for naught, but if they are watching and you have $10 bucks bet, split 7's vs 10 or an Ace an absolute losing play, but to a guy who is busy and sees this, all the heat goes away. and all you've risked is $20. now you cant do this often or you'll lose all of your advantage gained by counting. I play poker, mostly, counting cards bores the hell out of me since I do it for a living, but if I do sit and play BJ its like breathing to count, so I do. If I've followed the wager guidelines I set above and i have never gotten heat.

I got heat at the El Cortez and I wasn't following my guideline, I was betting $25-$150 and I had a pit on my shoulder the whole time. I didn't care because I would probably never be back, and I didn't care if they backed me off, we were downtown for dinner and I rarely do anything downtown. the other time was at the Gold Coast, again betting green chips from $25--$500 2 hands. this was a little worse because I play there often but I let my emotions get the best of me earlier in the week when a shift manage and I got into a fight. that being said, the $10-100 never playing black should serve you well. I will be in LV for the WSOP and I'd be curious to see how you do.

Dan , there isn't a Casino I know of, that would back any $5-$30 better off their game, EVER. so saying that they will cut you off, in principle is true, but if you aren't swinging for the fences, live long and prosper. honestly, Dan, do you think any real Casino cares about $200 win from a red chip player???? the guy said he has a small bankroll = I'm not going to make a giant splash. I've never been backed off, ever and I play way bigger than that guy is going to. take it from a guy who does surveillance for a living, we take into account all action before we back off.... maybe the guy goes on tilt and gives up his skill counting...maybe he's a $1500 a day slot loser? maybe his wife is a $2500 a day slot loser vs this guy's $200 a day winning. We have a couple that's exactly like that at my Casino and we welcome both. I have many low limit counters come in,,,, and as long as they "behave" we let it slide.. get greedy, get backed off,,, stay cool and we let you go. we make Millions and Millions of the slot machine and basically table games are just a small part about 15-22% of our gaming revenue. so before you scare the hell out of this kid, let him have a chance and if he does get backed off, well oh well. he can still flat bet or whatever, but let him give it a go.

Quote: Paigowdan

Anyway, welcome to the Wizard of Vegas Gamblers' forum, where very few people here will give you the straight dope on things.

I understand why you think that way and respect your right to say it, but this is where I think you are wrong. The vast majority of people who regularly post here DO give you the straight "dope" as you call it. If you are not some a-hole boasting how great you are, the posters will help you and provide good info when it is asked. I believe you just insulted a group of people just because you don't agree with their actions or outlook on gambling.

Here comes the cavalry! Haha. Cheers for the advice guys, i've read general tactics to keep off the heat but hearing specifics from present card counters does make me feel that little bit more at ease. Just the other day I was merely playing BS but keeping the count and I was already paranoid about any watching eyes.

I wouldn't have expected a card counting surveillance manager to post on here bdc42 haha! Do most pits/surveillance learn to card count or do they simply know the symptoms? The local casino I visit at the moment is fairly average (never quite busy, dealers are just local students) so my common sense would say the team behind the dealers aren't up to Vegas standard. In the UK casinos don't really see much action except on the weekends so I wouldn't suspect them of being a regular target. Is this the usual case or am I being extremely naive?

Most commercial casinos in the UK use continuous shufflers, so finding a shoe game was like hitting gold haha. You can see why I'm quite cautious.

floor people know the "flags" to watch for and then they tell the gaming shift manager of their suspicions, and then they call us. a few dealers can count, but they don't say anything, the customers are their tippers so if the person tips they really don't care its not their money. the floor boss, who has a lot to do, track players, rotate dealers on the "string", approve check change, change decks etc...usually don't have to be able to count in our Casino, they are to busy to sit there and run down a shoe, but they know the flags.... small bet to big bet... they look at a hand on the table and see a bunch of small cards and a $15 wager and the guy is betting $200 the next hand... stuff like that sends off bells and they send it up the chain of command. everyone in my surveillance room is capable of running down a game, with our digital system,even if they aren't quick and super skilled, you can always pause the video, recount the hand. and you are back on stream. my mentor, who I wont name, was a great casino guy, told me never stress the counter, get confirmation and go from there.. ."COUNTING IS A PROCESS NOT AN EVENT". If we miss a guy and run back his play the next night and find out he's a counter, we don't sweat it, take his picture, flag his card (if he's using one) and the next time up we will get him. my mentor warned me that one of the worst things a surveillance guy can do is turn away revenue because we "think" he's counting. the guy is never going to break us, so we give most the benefit of the doubt as long as they aren't going for the kill. and a lot do...they always get bounced .. the best part is sometimes even the best counters get stuck and if they are "going for it" they get stuck big and then we boot them.... really funny stuff....

Skellyo- welcome to the forum.

First- ignore Paigowdan.

Second- block all Paigowdan's posts.

Third- continue to read, study and practice. Come to Vegas in July and count cards. It will be good experience. Then you can decide if you want to continue.

That's interesting bdc42, I knew to keep a touch of randomness to the plays to lure off and heat but that put's it into better perspective. I'm going down to another new casino to me today before work just to scope out whether they use shoe's or not. Maybe play a few hands and get a feel for the place. One question though, why don't all casinos use continuous shufflers? I understand people may have superstitions or that dealers feel isolated from the players when they don't shuffle themselves, but why would that be a reason for a casino to completely eliminate counters with them devices? The price tag i'm guessing wouldn't be too steep so I thought maybe they pay a contract?

Haha, cheers Keyser! Worst that can happen: I get backed off in Vegas and have a story for my kids when I'm older. It was like a scene out of '21' ;P

Quote: KeyserSoze

Skellyo- welcome to the forum.

First- ignore Paigowdan.

Second- block all Paigowdan's posts.

Third- continue to read, study and practice. Come to Vegas in July and count cards. It will be good experience. Then you can decide if you want to continue.

+1

however third should have been double check you blocked paigowdan's posts.

I will have to disagree with my friends, axel and soze.... Do not block PaiGowDan.... but... remember he comes from a different place than the gamblers on this forum... he has worked for the casinos his whole life, and now he works for a gaming manufacturer and it his JOB to develop games that can't be beaten...

He CONCEPTUALLY thinks that card counting is wrong... so his conclusions are based on that axiom... the rest of us here feel it is within your rights and legal to alter your bets as you wish...

Some valid PaiGowDan points..... If you are not smart at it you will be backed off... Most who try to count fail at meeting a win goal....

And most of all, which you will hear from PaiGowDan AND all of his detractors...


To do this properly you MUST be properly bankrolled.... The expert AP's on this forum say you should have enough to spread 1 -16..... So that means if you are starting at $10 you must be ready to bet $160, split em, double em both..... The rare times I play BJ (unbelievably boring to me now...) I count, and will use maybe a 1 - 4 spread.... I KNOW I do not have an advantage.... but I just don't have the stomach to have $500 on the table.... if you do, then go for it!!!

axel, kewlj, 1BB, keysersoze, I think are the active APers here who are always kind enough to answer questions frankly.... take their advice... and good luck!

Quote: SOOPOO

I will have to disagree with my friends, axel and soze.... Do not block PaiGowDan.... but... remember he comes from a different place than the gamblers on this forum... he has worked for the casinos his whole life, and now he works for a gaming manufacturer and it his JOB to develop games that can't be beaten... !

I agree with Scott in this one! I think that Dan's opinion is one of the things that make this board so rich and interesting: diversity.
No need to block him. Just consider that he might speak in self defense, since he makes a living in the casino industry and that player advantage jeopardizes his job.

PGDan, your post is very inappropriate for the context of this thread. It is one thing for you to push your warped sense of casino loyalty in the AP type threads, but this is no AP thread. A new, want-a-be- card counter, playing to a small bankroll, and playing mostly basic strategy, is just gambling. Even if casinos were aware of his intentions, they should and would welcome his action.

Stop your nonsense using world like 'scam'. You just look foolish. It's a new year. You have already broken your resolution to be less of a jerk. Lol

To the OP, you should have no problem as far as heat, counting in Vegas at the low limits that you are talking about, with the exception of a couple extremely over paranoid places like El Cortez, or South Point. Now actually winning might be a problem. You will be playing the worst if the games (don't play 6-5 blackjack), and the most crowded conditions. Also with a small bankroll, playing a very high risk of ruin. Basically you will be gambling, looking for positive variance. Good luck and enjoy your trip.

Quote: kewlj

To the OP, you should have no problem as far as heat, counting in Vegas at the low limits that you are talking about, with the exception of a couple extremely over paranoid places like El Cortez, or South Point.

This made me remember that picture of The Heat At Sweat Joint t-shirt/card.

Blocking Dan's posting is a dumb idea. Remember the Godfather's advice: " Keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

Too many, if not most, people in the industry share his viewpoint. Dan has at least stopping referring to counters as cheaters, but all his other thought patterns remain the same.

I come g from a very similar background as Dan having been in casinos all my life. Card counting is not scamming. This is your opinion Dan. Casinos are able to back you off for any reason. Card counting is one of them but not because it is illegal simply because they choose not to take your action. That is well within their rights.
To use the word scam is not right. Scamming is illegal and can get you arrested. Not so with card counting.
Lighten up dan. You have a wealth of knowledge. Use it for good and not simply for stating opinions.
Happy New Year to all.

See, another industry member who is more tolerant than Dan, but out the door you go, all the same.

Quote: Skellyo

how realistic it would be for me to card count in Vegas this July with a fairly low bankroll.

To answer your question, it's very realistic to count cards. However, I suspect what you really want to know isn't the same as what you've asked. Now if you're asking, "How realistic would it be for me to count cards in Vegas with a fairly low bankroll AND WIN?" then I'd say the answer is probably, "Not very realistic." You definitely need the proper bankroll to be successful at counting.

Quote: bdc42

Dan , there isn't a Casino I know of, that would back any $5-$30 better off their game, EVER.

The El Cortez. They back off green in a minute.
As well as most local places.

Quote: bdc42

so saying that they will cut you off, in principle is true, but if you aren't swinging for the fences, live long and prosper. honestly, Dan, do you think any real Casino cares about $200 win from a red chip player????

No, of course not, if from a Non-AP or clean player, pardon the expression.
Casinos do care what people practice when walking in off the streets.
And backing off a green or even red player (and I have seen this done at a Stations property), the player gets greeted with a "Really?? Are you serious?"
While not the most polite backoff, it is the high action player who may be told "Sir, your play is just too fabulous, too good for us."

Quote: bdc42

the guy said he has a small bankroll = I'm not going to make a giant splash. I've never been backed off, ever and I play way bigger than that guy is going to. take it from a guy who does surveillance for a living, we take into account all action before we back off.... maybe the guy goes on tilt and gives up his skill counting...maybe he's a $1500 a day slot loser? maybe his wife is a $2500 a day slot loser vs this guy's $200 a day winning. We have a couple that's exactly like that at my Casino and we welcome both. I have many low limit counters come in,,,, and as long as they "behave" we let it slide.. get greedy, get backed off,,, stay cool and we let you go. we make Millions and Millions of the slot machine and basically table games are just a small part about 15-22% of our gaming revenue. so before you scare the hell out of this kid, let him have a chance and if he does get backed off, well oh well. he can still flat bet or whatever, but let him give it a go.

Table games are a quarter of the action, true, but most casinos I know take the position if you're caught doing it, you may get stopped doing it. If a floorman catches you, either by a phone call from the sky or just right in the pit, he won't say, "You know, PFFT, we make Millions, so why don't you abscond with a few of those little red and green chips here, what the hell." He'll say "Really? You're funny, real cute. And you're done for the night. Bye."
And no. It is NOT "made all right" by absconding with chump change versus with thousands.

I am not scaring the hell out of this kid, or....if he finds it scary, then it may be for reason.

I am saying it is very misleading to advocate something that could:
1. stop a new player's playing career.
2. that while legal, is arguably unethical, and it is arguably unethical because we're here at this gambling board where this argument is made.
3. Being a "civilian" is always safe.
4. Legal as it may be, it is a scam on a casino business, similar to pilfering at a Buffet. I would say you also won't do jail time for leaving with a piece of chicken in your coat pocket, but again get the "Really? You're funny. Here's the door."
5. It is just a legal to back off or bar a player as it is to count.
6. It's "technically legal," true, but for a red chip OR a black or Purple chip, it is scamming a casino: their rules - the rules of the casino house - are that it is NOT okay to AP, and this is shown by flat betting a player, or backing him off, or by having him leave. THIS shows that it is unwelcome.

As from arguments of "legal versus illegal," I view it as something akin to:
1. I would not welcome someone in my house who would take something from it when I am not looking, or break a house rule of mine, nor,
2. would I take something when a guest in someone else's house, or break the rules of their house.

That's how I look at this behavior, even if you don't.
If you're advising that this is fine behavior, that's you.

So you are saying that card counting is against house rules?
So what if a player is counting but he is a lifetime loser. He wins occasionally at bj but loses large amounts on AR and CR. according to your rules he should be asked to leave as he is breaking house rules. Not backed of from playing bj but 86'ed as he is breaking the rules.
I respect your opinion but I'm not sure about the logic.
We can ask anybody to leave for any reason. Rather leave it at that instead of bringing card counting into it.
Card counting is not illegal or is simply frowned upon.

Quote: Tomspur

So you are saying that card counting is against house rules?

Yes, exactly. This is clearly evident, when you think about it, via the following items.
1. Casino management (pit boss, etc.) will take any action from flat-betting you, to having you leave the premises. The old "tap on the shoulder." These actions clearly say to you, "this is NOT okay with us!"
2. The use of camouflage plays to hide your counting. I mean, if it were fine by the house rules, why would you even need to conceal it? what would the reason for this be?
3. Now, using false identification is a real indication. This is actually fairly extreme and is a fundamentally dishonest action.

Quote: Tomspur

So what if a player is counting but he is a lifetime loser. He wins occasionally at bj but loses large amounts on AR and CR. according to your rules he should be asked to leave as he is breaking house rules. Not backed of from playing bj but 86'ed as he is breaking the rules.

He may be asked to leave, or just asked to play games other than BJ, like dice and Roulette. The local manager makes the call.

Quote: Tomspur

I respect your opinion but I'm not sure about the logic.
We can ask anybody to leave for any reason. Rather leave it at that instead of bringing card counting into it.

Well, if the specific reason for backing a player off or ejecting him from the property was indeed from AP play or card counting, then why not be honest about it and say, "he was 86-ed for AP play, and not public drunkenness or something else." ?

Quote: Tomspur

Card counting is not illegal or is simply frowned upon.

This is correct, card counting itself is not illegal. Neither is backing off a player or having him leave private property.

I agree with most of what you say just that I don't believe it is a casino rule per say. If there is a decision to be made based on available facts them I don't think it is a rule but rather guidelines to follow based on said information.
There is no hard and fast rule, just interpretation by management.

Thanks for the chat. I have the A380 to catch to Seoul. Pretty excited.

Double post.....my fault

Quote: Tomspur

I agree with most of what you say just that I don't believe it is a casino rule per say. If there is a decision to be made based on available facts them I don't think it is a rule but rather guidelines to follow based on said information.
There is no hard and fast rule, just interpretation by management.

Thanks for the chat. I have the A380 to catch to Seoul. Pretty excited.

A380?!! Pay very close attention to the safety pitch.

Quote: Sabretom2

A380?!! Pay very close attention to the safety pitch.

why do you say that? The aircraft has only had one major incident and one engineflame out. You know something I don't?

Quote: Tomspur

why do you say that? The aircraft has only had one major incident and one engineflame out. You know something I don't?

Just kidding, mostly. Just a kneejerk reaction to any Eurotrash product.

Quote: Sabretom2

Just kidding, mostly. Just a kneejerk reaction to any Eurotrash product.

ahhh I understand mostly. Lol.
I'll report back and let you know how the old girl performs. She sure is a looker.
Will be hard to beat the 777. Good Old reliable. ..... unless you are flying Asiana of course :)

Quote: SOOPOO

Do not block PaiGowDan.... he has worked for the casinos his whole life, !

He has? I thought it was only for 6-8 years
or so. Which is it, Dan.

Quote: Tomspur

So you are saying that card counting is against house rules?

Here's a way to find out, ask them like I have.
Dan says it's against the rules, try and find a
suit in a pit that will tell you that. What Dan
means is it's a super secret rule that only the
casinos know and aren't allowed to talk about.

Quote: Tomspur

I agree with most of what you say just that I don't believe it is a casino rule per say. If there is a decision to be made based on available facts them I don't think it is a rule but rather guidelines to follow based on said information.
There is no hard and fast rule, just interpretation by management.

and

Quote: EvenBob

Here's a way to find out, ask them like I have.
Dan says it's against the rules, try and find a
suit in a pit that will tell you that. What Dan
means is it's a super secret rule that only the
casinos know and aren't allowed to talk about.

While players generally only see the tables, the dealers, the floormen, and the How to Play cards in the table racks, it is the dealers, floormen, pit bosses, and shift managers who see varying amounts of internal memoranda, rules, controls, and procedures in terms of game protection.

Certainly, a casino is not going to share with the general gaming public their surveillance and game protection protocols and methodology, leading the public to believe that all game protection actions are some ad hoc and off-the-cuff calls by some floorman, when surveillance involvement, and policy and procedure rules may be a part of the equation. Things look different in the shift office and surveillance office than it does to a guy who walks in off the street and up to a BJ table, never privy to the behind-the-scenes policies, procedures, and controls of the casino or the rationales for them.

And in closing, if a casino manager, surveillance director, or shift manager makes the "interpretation" or the call that a player must be backed off or asked to leave, this "call" becomes, or is representative of, some hard and fast "rules" or "rulings" on a game protection issue, as applied to the situation at hand.

The game protection guidelines and controls that are followed and enforced are the rules that are in place, whether or not the casino wishes to disclose their internal controls and surveillance methods and policies to the general public, or to members of this or any other gamblers' forum.

And why cant they just post something saying, Card counting is not welcome? Or advantage play is not forbidden?

Because casinos are sneaky and greedy, they encourage people to try card counting, they just don't want you to be good at it.

If someone with a stack of money came in to intentionally count cards and announced it to the pit after he started playing, but he was really, really bad at it. Lets say he counted fine and varied his bet accordingly. However, he didn't know the proper strategy and hit hard 16 vs the dealers 4 during high counts or hit hard 18 vs the dealers 7, they would defiantly let him stay AND COUNT .

Quote: kewlj

PGDan, your post is very inappropriate for the context of this thread. It is one thing for you to push your warped sense of casino loyalty in the AP type threads, but this is no AP thread. A new, want-a-be- card counter, playing to a small bankroll, and playing mostly basic strategy, is just gambling. Even if casinos were aware of his intentions, they should and would welcome his action.

Let me ask Kewlj or anyone this: what happens if a bright eyed and bushy-tailed wannabe AP players takes all the wonderful welcomes and encouragement here, and armed with that warm and fuzzy AP camaraderie and encouragement, promptly gets caught, 86-ed, and into a surveillance report. Do you think he should know the risks or the casino's Point of View, and what the possible outcomes may be for him? I do. I think it's appropriate he gets exposed to this POV also. And what if he finds it not to be financially rewarding and an actual grind in the long run, if he happens to go forward without any heat. For years I worked in a casino as my job, my career, and while it was often interesting, I didn't find it a treat. I prefer the office and secretary now. Do you think it's a great job to have? I think presenting AP as both a viable and reliable source of income, and as a presentable endeavor, is a flat-out disservice.

Quote: Skellyo

It seems like i have a good thing going here, however I was wondering just how realistic it would be for me to card count in Vegas this July with a fairly low bankroll. This is my first time messaging to other counters since learning the 'tricks of the trade' so be nice if I have missed any fairly large holes in my plan :P Cheers in advance!

I want to chime in here.

First, as others have said, ignore PaiGowDan. He has some issues with reality. He will also troll like crazy and try to turn this into a discussion about whether card counting is against the rules, whether card counters are cheaters, whether they are "clean" players, etc, etc. This is all off-topic nonsense that has already been discussed to death in 100 other threads (I don't understand why the admins tolerate his repeated derailing of threads like this with his off-topic nonsense, but, they are in charge and I'm not).

So, let's get this thread back on-topic. You are looking to do this recreationally, right? You're not looking to go pro. So, I have to say, you can probably ignore what others say about having to be properly bankrolled. Just don't gamble with money that you can't afford to lose, and understand that at any time your edge is very small and you may lose it all. This is not a big deal! Just because you are counting doesn't mean that you can't play "for fun". You may as well have fun with an edge and increase your chances of winning.

However, if you are not properly bankrolled, the same rules apply to you as would apply to someone who is playing slots or roulette. Don't play with money that you can't afford to lose. Don't continue playing if you're not enjoying it (you are there to have fun, so have fun... it's not work). If you win enough money that you would feel bad if you lost it back... stop playing!! The advice that many people are giving you on this thread is very well-intentioned and it would be good advice if you were playing to try to make a living, but you're not. You just want to have a fun vacation and give yourself a better chance than most to win. Just never forget that even if you count and play perfectly, your edge is small and you can very easily lose.

Third, ignore all the advice that people have given you about cover play. Again, this is well-intentioned and is good advice if you're a pro (or maybe even a local), but you're not. First of all, no one is going to back you off for your red chip action. No one cares. There is a big difference between you spreading $10-$100 and someone else spreading $100-$1000, and someone else spreading $500-$5000. The big players have cover requirements that you don't. Second, again, you are not a pro. You're there on vacation. Who the hell cares if you get backed off? If you get backed off you have a good story to tell your buddies back home, or, better yet, to tell the ladies at the bar ("They told me that I was too good at blackjack to keep playing!") and you go play next door. It's Vegas; you can always go next door. You are not going to run out of casinos during your vacation. In fact, even if you don't get backed off (and you almost certainly won't) you should probably go play next door after a while anyway. You don't want to spend your whole vacation in the same place, after all...

To avoid any inconvenience, you may want to simply not play blackjack at the casino where you are staying -- just play at the place next door, or the one next door to that one, or the one across the street, or the one at the other end of the strip. Again, it's Vegas -- one thing that you will not have a shortage of is casinos.

Having said all this -- if your "plan" is to get rich from your small bankroll by counting cards -- forget it. It's not going to happen. If your "plan" is to sit, play, count cards, have a good time, and have a better chance to eke out a small profit than the guy sitting beside you, then, yes, your plan is very realistic. Just remember that it might not happen. You might lose while the guy beside you who can't play (and the guy beside you almost certainly won't be able to play) gets ridiculously lucky and makes tons of money. The count goes up, you put your big bet out there, and the guy beside you (who proudly hit his 15 against the dealer's 6 last hand, and caught a 4, because "if someone doesn't take a hit to save the table the dealer won't bust") gets dealt a blackjack while you get a 16 against the dealer's 10. These things happen. If you can't ignore it (or, better yet, find it funny and enjoy it) then this isn't the game for you. Congratulate the guy for his blackjack, agonize over your 16 for a while, stand (the count is high, after all) and try to maintain some small amount of hope until the dealer flips over his 10 in the hole.

And, one more thing -- you said you live in the UK. Aren't the rules there different than in Vegas (eg, no hole card)? Different rules mean different strategy -- make sure that you learn basic strategy for the game that you'll be playing, or, at the very least, learn it for "standard" Vegas rules.

Finally: this is the most important part. You are there on vacation. HAVE FUN!

Quote: Paigowdan

Let me ask Kewlj or anyone this: what happens if a bright eyed and bushy-tailed wannabe AP players takes all the wonderful welcomes and encouragement here, and armed with that warm and fuzzy AP camaraderie and encouragement, promptly gets caught, 86-ed, and into a surveillance report. Do you think he should know the risks or the casino's Point of View, and what the possible outcomes may be for him? I do. I think it's appropriate he gets exposed to this POV also. And what if he finds it not to be financially rewarding and an actual grind in the long run, if he happens to go forward without any heat. For years I worked in a casino as my job, my career, and while it was often interesting, I didn't find it a treat. I prefer the office and secretary now. Do you think it's a great job to have? I think presenting AP as both a viable and reliable source of income, and as a presentable endeavor, is a flat-out disservice.

Its only a disservice if he risks more then he can afford and dose not do his homework on avoiding detection. If he gets tossed out of every casino in Vegas, how is that a disservice? From most peoples point of view, it would probably be a blessing.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I want to chime in here.

First, as others have said, ignore PaiGowDan. He has some issues with reality. He will also troll like crazy and try to turn this into a discussion about whether card counting is against the rules, whether card counters are cheaters, whether they are "clean" players, etc, etc. This is all off-topic nonsense that has already been discussed to death in 100 other threads (I don't understand why the admins tolerate his repeated derailing of threads like this with his off-topic nonsense, but, they are in charge and I'm not).

So, let's get this thread back on-topic. You are looking to do this recreationally, right? You're not looking to go pro. So, I have to say, you can probably ignore what others say about having to be properly bankrolled. Just don't gamble with money that you can't afford to lose, and understand that at any time your edge is very small and you may lose it all. This is not a big deal! Just because you are counting doesn't mean that you can't play "for fun". You may as well have fun with an edge and increase your chances of winning.

However, if you are not properly bankrolled, the same rules apply to you as would apply to someone who is playing slots or roulette. Don't play with money that you can't afford to lose. Don't continue playing if you're not enjoying it (you are there to have fun, so have fun... it's not work). If you win enough money that you would feel bad if you lost it back... stop playing!! The advice that many people are giving you on this thread is very well-intentioned and it would be good advice if you were playing to try to make a living, but you're not. You just want to have a fun vacation and give yourself a better chance than most to win. Just never forget that even if you count and play perfectly, your edge is small and you can very easily lose.

Third, ignore all the advice that people have given you about cover play. Again, this is well-intentioned and is good advice if you're a pro (or maybe even a local), but you're not. First of all, no one is going to back you off for your red chip action. No one cares. There is a big difference between you spreading $10-$100 and someone else spreading $100-$1000, and someone else spreading $500-$5000. The big players have cover requirements that you don't. Second, again, you are not a pro. You're there on vacation. Who the hell cares if you get backed off? If you get backed off you have a good story to tell your buddies back home, or, better yet, to tell the ladies at the bar ("They told me that I was too good at blackjack to keep playing!") and you go play next door. It's Vegas; you can always go next door. You are not going to run out of casinos during your vacation. In fact, even if you don't get backed off (and you almost certainly won't) you should probably go play next door after a while anyway. You don't want to spend your whole vacation in the same place, after all...

To avoid any inconvenience, you may want to simply not play blackjack at the casino where you are staying -- just play at the place next door, or the one next door to that one, or the one across the street, or the one at the other end of the strip. Again, it's Vegas -- one thing that you will not have a shortage of is casinos.

Having said all this -- if your "plan" is to get rich from your small bankroll by counting cards -- forget it. It's not going to happen. If your "plan" is to sit, play, count cards, have a good time, and have a better chance to eke out a small profit than the guy sitting beside you, then, yes, your plan is very realistic. Just remember that it might not happen. You might lose while the guy beside you who can't play (and the guy beside you almost certainly won't be able to play) gets ridiculously lucky and makes tons of money. The count goes up, you put your big bet out there, and the guy beside you (who proudly hit his 15 against the dealer's 6 last hand, and caught a 4, because "if someone doesn't take a hit to save the table the dealer won't bust") gets dealt a blackjack while you get a 16 against the dealer's 10. These things happen. If you can't ignore it (or, better yet, find it funny and enjoy it) then this isn't the game for you. Congratulate the guy for his blackjack, agonize over your 16 for a while, stand (the count is high, after all) and try to maintain some small amount of hope until the dealer flips over his 10 in the hole.

And, one more thing -- you said you live in the UK. Aren't the rules there different than in Vegas (eg, no hole card)? Different rules mean different strategy -- make sure that you learn basic strategy for the game that you'll be playing, or, at the very least, learn it for "standard" Vegas rules.

Finally: this is the most important part. You are there on vacation. HAVE FUN!

WOW I'm jealous ..... great post well said good advice for him, right on target especially this part .

First, as others have said, ignore PaiGowDan. He has some issues with reality. He will also troll like crazy and try to turn this into a discussion about whether card counting is against the rules, whether card counters are cheaters, whether they are "clean" players, etc, etc. This is all off-topic nonsense that has already been discussed to death in 100 other threads (I don't understand why the admins tolerate his repeated derailing of threads like this with his off-topic nonsense, but, they are in charge and I'm not).

Let's look at some issues with reality:
1. Notifying a potential/wannabe AP at this board that he may get heat because the casino businesses might not like it, and think it improper?
I think this is a good reality based point #1. We both actually agree on this point, with the exception that I say the gaming businesses may have a point of issue with this, and that it is not unreasonable.

2. That casino businesses have a right to a house edge, - in order to pay for the expenses of providing you with a place to play and keeping the doors open for you, - and your response to this is to try to beat them out their income source, to take it for yourself, as the actual intent here. Pointing this out is the reality here.

3. That misrepresenting yourself as a civilian player to them, but going in with full knowledge that you intend to AP them, and saying there's no deceit involved on "my part here" is what actually defies reality. Many AP's also use fraudulent identification, yet it is hard for some to see that this is in anyway deceitful.

These points are actually very reasonable and reality based.

Quote: Paigowdan

Let's look at some issues with reality:
1. Notifying a potential/wannabe AP at this board that he may get heat because the casino businesses might not like it, and think it improper?
I think this is a good reality based point #1. We both actually agree on this point, with the exception that I say the gaming businesses may have a point of issue with this, and that it is not unreasonable.

2. That casino businesses have a right to a house edge, - in order to pay for the expenses of providing you with a place to play and keeping the doors open for you, - and your response to this is to try to beat them out their income source, to take it for yourself, as the actual intent here. Pointing this out is the reality here.

3. That misrepresenting yourself as a civilian player to them, but going in with full knowledge that you intend to AP them, and saying there's no deceit involved on "my part here" is what actually defies reality. Many AP's also use fraudulent identification, yet it is hard for some to see that this is in anyway deceitful.

These points are actually very reasonable and reality based.

Dan, this is mostly off-topic. The original poster was simply asking about whether his plan was realistic, not for a run-down of your morals, ethics, and political and religious beliefs. You think it's wrong; we get it. No one cares. This thread is not about the morality of counting cards. Please stop derailing threads like this.

The heat part is somewhat on-topic. My point is simply that he shouldn't worry about it. First of all, unless he is at a crappy small locals casino, no one cares about red-chip or even green-chip action. You can go to any strip casino and play reds all day long with no cover whatsoever, spreading wildly, and no one will care. Your EV doing this is maybe a dollar or two an hour if you play perfectly; a multi-million dollar organization has better things to worry about. (Spreading $5-$50 in a 6-deck game with decent rules and good penetration, you can expect to make, maybe, somewhere in the range of 10 to 15 cents per hand on average). You will probably drink more in free drinks than you will make in EV. My advice is to order the most expensive booze that they will bring you for free; this can easily triple your hourly rate.

Furthermore, he is there on vacation; if he gets backed off from a casino or two... who cares? It doesn't cost him anything; he will be welcome across the street.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Dan, this is mostly off-topic. The original poster was simply asking about whether his plan was realistic, not for a run-down of your morals, ethics, and political and religious beliefs. You think it's wrong; we get it. No one cares. This thread is not about the morality of counting cards. Please stop derailing threads like this.

The heat part is somewhat on-topic. My point is simply that he shouldn't worry about it. First of all, unless he is at a crappy small locals casino, no one cares about red-chip or even green-chip action. You can go to any strip casino and play reds all day long with no cover whatsoever, spreading wildly, and no one will care. Your EV doing this is maybe a dollar or two an hour if you play perfectly; a multi-million dollar organization has better things to worry about. (Spreading $5-$50 in a 6-deck game with decent rules and good penetration, you can expect to make, maybe, somewhere in the range of 10 to 15 cents per hand on average). You will probably drink more in free drinks than you will make in EV. My advice is to order the most expensive booze that they will bring you for free; this can easily triple your hourly rate.

Furthermore, he is there on vacation; if he gets backed off from a casino or two... who cares? It doesn't cost him anything; he will be welcome across the street.

I see your point, but No, it is not about morality, it's about a wide-eyed wannabe receiving a small black eye on his big vacation.
So No, it is not realistic.
This is especially if he is here on vacation, if he gets flat-betted or backed off with a "c'mon, buddy, really now?" God forbid he has a lady with him, and she thinks, "God, what a jerk, now we gotta leave." He may actually care. And if he goes right across the street, he'll probably be in a property of the same operator. And a multi-million dollar organization can afford the pit staff and has floormen precisely for this reason, - to keep games running without "additional games and shenanigans" that they're happier not seeing. It's part of the floorman's job to say "Buddy, go play roulette or go home." And if a floorman didn't warn or back off, then he wouldn't be doing his job for that Multi-million dollar organization.

The argument that "AP-ing for laughs and giggles is better than AP-ing as a pro" has a downside. Now, he won't make any real money for the risk of embarrassment or ejection.

Quote: Skellyo

Hey Guys! In July I will be going to Vegas for my 21st birthday (I'm from the North East of the UK) and have been practicing high/low card counting for the past couple of months and have made quite a bit of progress. I have perfect basic strategy and can count a deck in pairs in around 23 seconds (through a lot of repetition on quiet work shifts haha). I have visited numerous local casinos and i've actually found shoe game with £2 bet minimum. So far I have only played basic strategy there (for a profit I might add) but have been able to keep the count, just I haven't acted upon it yet with a low bankroll and not wanting to seem to suspicious so early in my visits to the casino.

It seems like i have a good thing going here, however I was wondering just how realistic it would be for me to card count in Vegas this July with a fairly low bankroll. This is my first time messaging to other counters since learning the 'tricks of the trade' so be nice if I have missed any fairly large holes in my plan :P Cheers in advance!

Gee, you ask one innocent question and look what happens.

By all means count cards but keep your expectations low. With a small bankroll you will be playing games with poorer rules. If you employ the spread needed to just break even, you could lose it all rather quickly. If your spread is too small, the house edge will take it's toll. That leaves getting lucky and I hope you do.

By the way, counting down a deck is overrated in my opinion. That time is better spent perfecting basic strategy, learning index play, wonging etc. Most players say they know perfect basic strategy but very few do.

Quote: Paigowdan

I see your point, but No, it is not about morality, it's about a wide-eyed wannabe receiving a small black eye on his big vacation.
So No, it is not realistic.
This is especially if he is here on vacation, if he gets flat-betted or backed off with a "c'mon, buddy, really now?" God forbid he has a lady with him, and she thinks, "God, what a jerk, now we gotta leave." He may actually care. And if he goes right across the street, he'll probably be in a property of the same operator. And a multi-million dollar organization can afford the pit staff and has floormen precisely for this reason, - to keep games running without "additional games and shenanigans" that they're happier not seeing. It's part of the floorman's job to say "Buddy, go play roulette or go home." And if a floorman didn't warn or back off, then he wouldn't be doing his job for that Multi-million dollar organization.

The argument that "AP-ing for laughs and giggles is better than AP-ing as a pro" has a downside. Now, he won't make any real money for the risk of embarrassment or ejection.

I find it rare that AP's are embarrassed when ejected. It's more of a F@#k moment. Then it tunes into a F#$$k you moment. then it turns into a AHH F@#$k, how do I get that Fake ID Dan was talking about.

Quote: AxelWolf

I find it rare that AP's are embarrassed when ejected. It's more of a F@#k moment. Then it tunes into a F#$$k you moment. then it turns into a AHH F@#$k, how do I get that Fake ID Dan was talking about.

The fake ID's are discussed at a few AP sites; it's really hard now. Nathaniel Tilton discusses in his AP memoir. some times he was called by another name at a new place with new ID, when a floorman changed properties and recognized him under another name.

Quote: Paigowdan

This is especially if he is here on vacation, if he gets flat-betted or backed off with a "c'mon, buddy, really now?" God forbid he has a lady with him, and she thinks, "God, what a jerk, now we gotta leave."

You've got to be kidding me. I've never actually been backed off (I guess I'm not "too good" for anyone) but if I ever am, I will tell everyone who cares to listen, and probably several people who don't.

Quote:

And if he goes right across the street, he'll probably be in a property of the same operator.

Unlikely, unless that operator is MGM. And MGM doesn't care about his red-chip action.

Quote:

And a multi-million dollar organization can afford the pit staff and has floormen precisely for this reason, - to keep games running without "additional games and shenanigans" that they're happier not seeing. It's part of the floorman's job to say "Buddy, go play roulette or go home." And if a floorman didn't warn or back off, then he wouldn't be doing his job for that Multi-million dollar organization.

I can tell that you spent all your time working for low-roller joints who sweat every red chip. This is not how it works in the big time. Trust me on this, I have spread wildly and obviously with the count, and they don't care as long as the amounts of money are under their radar.

People worry too much about cover and heat. Just slide the chips out there. The ploppies do it all the time. If you lost, put the bigger out there because you're steaming and you want to win it back. If you won, you are playing with the house's money to try to win more. Whatever, if the count is good, just put the chips out there.

Come on man, people are playing for yellows in the next pit over, and for 10's of thousands per hand at a reserved table in the baccarat room, and you think that they give a crap about someone spreading $5-$50 at the red chip table? Hmmm, we just lost half a million on a shoe of baccarat, but who cares about that; someone might be beating us for a red chip or two in the low-roller pits! If he stays all night we might lose a green chip! Mobilize the forces! Security! Swat team! National Guard! Scramble the fighter jets and get the tanks rolling!

Quote:

The argument that "AP-ing for laughs and giggles is better than AP-ing as a pro" has a downside. Now, he won't make any real money for the risk of embarrassment or ejection.

This is not at all embarrassing. "Sorry, you're too good, we don't want to play against you any more": that is your opponent admitting defeat. It's the opposite of embarrassing.

For a pro it's different. It's still not embarrassing to get backed off, but if you can take hundreds or thousands of dollars an hour off that game, that back-off is expensive. It's not about saving face, it's about saving money.

Let's be honest here. You know that nothing bad is going to happen to this guy who wants to count some cards and bet some red chips on his 21st birthday. You're just trying to scare him into doing things the way that you think they should be done.

Quote: Paigowdan

The fake ID's are discussed at a few AP sites; it's really hard now. Nathaniel Tilton discusses in his AP memoir. some times he was called by another name at a new place with new ID, when a floorman changed properties and recognized him under another name.

I don't want to know. I'm not big on Blackjack anyways. I have the best cover ever when I do play. I play occasionally if its a better then average opportunity or on special occasions.

deleted

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I can tell that you spent all your time working for low-roller joints who sweat every red chip. This is not how it works in the big time. Trust me on this, I have spread wildly and obviously with the count, and they don't care as long as the amounts of money are under their radar.

Green action AP is low-roller, true. And at locals casinos, not strip. But the attitude was not much of "sweating" but of "Really? - take it out of here"

Quote: Axiomofchoice

Come on man, people are playing for yellows in the next pit over, and for 10's of thousands per hand at a reserved table in the baccarat room, and you think that they give a crap about someone spreading $5-$50 at the red chip table? Hmmm, we just lost half a million on a shoe of baccarat, but who cares about that; someone might be beating us for a red chip or two in the low-roller pits! If he stays all night we might lose a green chip! Mobilize the forces! Security! Swat team! National Guard! Scramble the fighter jets and get the tanks rolling!

No. It's more of behavior and knowing the AP/getting a photo than the particular session's money.
And telling someone to go play Roulette is not an Army intervention. Keep in mind it's not the session money, it's the rep of the joint, "soft or hard" to AP. Push back a bit hard, and we're on a no-go list. for a while.

Quote: Axiomofchoice

This is not at all embarrassing. "Sorry, you're too good, we don't want to play against you any more": that is your opponent admitting defeat. It's the opposite of embarrassing.

High rollers and Yellow action gets different treatment than green and black. A green back off is more of a "Buddy, - play dice or leave."

Quote: Axiomofchoice

For a pro it's different. It's still not embarrassing to get backed off, but if you can take hundreds or thousands of dollars an hour off that game, that back-off is expensive. It's not about saving face, it's about saving money.

Absolutely - who should care what a suit thinks if you're a pro, if you're not getting into the book.
For a newbie AP it's more of a slap.

Quote: Axiomofchoice

Let's be honest here. You know that nothing bad is going to happen to this guy who wants to count some cards and bet some red chips on his 21st birthday. You're just trying to scare him into doing things the way that you think they should be done.

Or the way the shift manager/TDR wants them done.
There is a bit of the "broken window" aspect: allow or see too many broken windows in a neighborhood, you lose control and see a proliferation. Clamp down on shoe penetration and give a group of back offs, word gets out and the joint is ignored as a go-to place to AP, a "why bother with xxxx, it'll just waste our time."
for the Birthday boy, there a bit of "Buddy, don't get slick: we ain't your training ground, and even though you'll never believe it, we saving both you and us later headaches."

Quote: Paigowdan

Certainly, a casino is not going to share with the general gaming public their surveillance and game protection protocols

When you ask them if counting is against
the rules, they always, ALWAYS, say no.
Count your head off, they say. For something
that's against the rules, Dan, you seem to be
the only one that knows it.

Hi Skellyo,

It is not easy to make money in Vegas by counting nowadays but it is still possible. Paigowdan is right that they will back you off when they know you have some skill but this is the least thing that you should be concerned.

Instead, you should be concerned with the following:
1) Bankroll - Do you have at least 100 max bets with you? More importantly, are you willing to lose all of them if it goes south?
Counting might give 1% edge but it does not mean you always win.
2) Penetration - It is worthless to count when the penetration is below 60%
3) House rules - Find a good game with low house edge
4) Speed of the game
5) Heat - If you are winning, the Pit bosses will watch you closely.