One of the rarest plays
Quote: GreasyjohnOnce, about 10 years ago, I was playing blackjack with my then-girlfriend at the California Club in Vegas.. She always played in front of me and took signals from me to deviate from basic strategy ( ie., hit when you should stand, not double when you should double, etc). So the true count is -6 (H17) and I see she has a hard 17 vs. dealer up-card of 5. I signal her, she hits, and right when the card hits the felt I say (NO!). It�s nice to see that the boyfriend wants to stop her from hitting a hard 17 even though it�s too late and the 3!!!!!!!!!!!!! is staring at us all. Well, her (bad play) saved the table ( and I looked like James Bond to her). Probably my proudest AP moment.
At -6 you should have signalled her to meet you in the bathroom for a quickie.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceAt -6 you should have signalled her to meet you in the bathroom for a quickie.
Exactly.
I would have signaled her a backhanded slap, if she didn't know to stand on a hard 17 V a 5. originally this said 17 VS dealers 6Quote: KeyserSozeExactly.
"Probably my proudest AP moment." YikesQuote: GreasyjohnOnce, about 10 years ago, I was playing blackjack with my then-girlfriend at the California Club in Vegas.. She always played in front of me and took signals from me to deviate from basic strategy ( ie., hit when you should stand, not double when you should double, etc). So the true count is -6 (H17) and I see she has a hard 17 vs. dealer up-card of 5. I signal her, she hits, and right when the card hits the felt I say (NO!). It�s nice to see that the boyfriend wants to stop her from hitting a hard 17 even though it�s too late and the 3!!!!!!!!!!!!! is staring at us all. Well, her (bad play) saved the table ( and I looked like James Bond to her). Probably my proudest AP moment.
Why all the hand signals? That would look sneaky for sure. Why not just sit next to her and say hit or stand?Quote: GreasyjohnOnce, about 10 years ago, I was playing blackjack with my then-girlfriend at the California Club in Vegas. She always played in front of me and took signals from me to deviate from basic strategy ( ie., hit when you should stand, not double when you should double, etc). So the true count is -6 (H17) and I see she has a hard 17 vs. dealer up-card of ace. I signal her, she hits, and right when the card hits the felt I say (NO!). Its nice to see that the boyfriend wants to stop her from hitting a hard 17 even though its too late and the 3!!!!!!!!!!!!! is staring at us all. Well, her (bad) play saved the table ( and I looked like James Bond to her). Probably my proudest AP moment.
one of the most blatant hand signaling I have seen especially since its on TV
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=659_1360278055
Ace Top of head
King Forehead
Queen Eye
Jack Nose
Ten Mouth
Eight or Nine Neck
Small Pair Arm
Quote: AxelWolfWhy all the hand signals? That would look sneaky for sure. Why not just sit next to her and say hit or stand?
That's what I was thinking too. Casinos couldn't care less if a guy tells his girlfriend when to hit/stand. OP must have seen one too many gambling movies. :)
Quote: AxelWolfWhy all the hand signals? That would look sneaky for sure. Why not just sit next to her and say hit or stand?
one of the most blatant hand signaling I have seen especially since its on TV
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=659_1360278055
Ace Top of head
King Forehead
Queen Eye
Jack Nose
Ten Mouth
Eight or Nine Neck
Small Pair Arm
Very funny video. But hand signals is not the way the old time, big time, poker pros colluded. They played "top hand" and used code language. "Top hand" means, say there are three colluders, one holding a pair of Kings, the other holding a pair of Queens, the other holding an Ace-Jack suited. Only the pair of Kings is going to play. They are going to give the "mark" as little pot odds as possible.
They didn't use hand signals. To easy to detect. They used code language. The code word for Ace is "play." The code word for six is "nuts." The colluder looks down at his hand, mucks it, and says "I can't play without the nuts." He just told the other colluders he threw away an Ace-six. Whichever of the colluders who has top hand will know two cards out of the deck that are not available to either him or the mark.
+1Quote: Beethoven9thThat's what I was thinking too. Casinos couldn't care less if a guy tells his girlfriend when to hit/stand. OP must have seen one too many gambling movies. :)
I can defiantly see why she was confused on the signal, he confused an ACE with a 6
Quote: AxelWolfWhy all the hand signals? That would look sneaky for sure. Why not just sit next to her and say hit or stand?
Who said anything about hand signals? The signals I used for raising/lowering bets and deviating from basic strategy were undetectable.
Quote: GreasyjohnObviously they were undetectable, that's why she hit hard 17.Quote: AxelWolfWhy all the hand signals? That would look sneaky for sure. Why not just sit next to her and say hit or stand?
Who said anything about hand signals? The signals I used for raising/lowering bets and deviating from basic strategy were undetectable.♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Quote: AxelWolf+1
I can defiantly see why she was confused on the signal, he confused an ACE with a 6
I didn't confuse an ace with a six, I made a mistake in my post ( and it was a 5 not a 6. Are you confusing a 6 for a 5, or did you just make a mistake?).
Quote: GreasyjohnOnce, about 10 years ago, I was playing blackjack with my then-girlfriend at the California Club in Vegas. She always played in front of me and took signals from me to deviate from basic strategy ( ie., hit when you should stand, not double when you should double, etc). So the true count is -6 (H17) and I see she has a hard 17 vs. dealer up-card of ace. I signal her, she hits, and right when the card hits the felt I say (NO!). Its nice to see that the boyfriend wants to stop her from hitting a hard 17 even though its too late and the 3!!!!!!!!!!!!! is staring at us all. Well, her (bad) play saved the table ( and I looked like James Bond to her). Probably my proudest AP moment.
I like these stories. This is the Hawaiian joint with low limits and poor rules.
How many decks, what was her base bet and max bet? What was she betting on that hand? What count were you using? Did the dealer flash the 3 or one of his cards or did you use an index play that I'm not familiar with? Why the California?
My inquiring mind wants to know.
Yet you had time to proof read it. I can only imagine how many mistakes out of confusion would be made in the heat of the moment.Quote: GreasyjohnI didn't confuse an ace with a six, I made a mistake in my post.
Umm... you did?Quote: GreasyjohnWho said anything about hand signals?
It sounds You indicated for her to hit.Quote: GreasyjohnI signal her, she hits,.
Quote: 1BBI like these stories. This is the Hawaiian joint with low limits and poor rules.
How many decks, what was her base bet and max bet? What was she betting on that hand? What count were you using? Did the dealer flash the 3 or one of his cards or did you use an index play that I'm not familiar with? Why the California?
My inquiring mind wants to know.
I only recall some of the details. Back then I played almost exclusively single-deck. I use Hi-Opt 1 with an ace side count and a 1-4 spread and usually opened for 2 units. The dealer didn't flash, it was just the best (lose less) play. She has played quarters before but I believe she was betting $10 - $40 at the time.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI don't think that there is any count which dictates you hit any hard 17. That said, I've done it three times all against a ten up in high negative counts while heads up. Even though it was a bad play, two of the three I turned losers into winners and the other time I busted but would have lost had I stayed anyway.
Edit. I think 17 vs A at -4TC becomes a hit. I'll have to recheck.
Minus 7 with Zen?
Quote: Ibeatyouraces
Edit. I think 17 vs A at -4TC becomes a hit. I'll have to recheck.
You're correct,it's -4TC but only with H17, it's -6TC if S17.
Not one of my proudest AP moments, But one that turned 6.25 into 1k and i was my friend's hero. Back during VP flush Attack day. My then friend was new to the game of flush attack. we were splitting. During a bonus light the the strategy is totally different then when the bonus was off or on. We were playing during a bonus light as fast as possible when the light suddenly went off. I glanced at my friends machine and he had held A Q 10 7 OF CLUBS and he was about to draw the hand. I yelled, "NO" blocked his hand from drawing. I then un-held the 7 of clubs and drew the hand for him, k J of clubs popped in for a Royal Flush that paid $1,000. If he had drew the hand after his original hold, we would have only got $6.25Quote: IbeatyouracesI don't think that there is any count which dictates you hit any hard 17. That said, I've done it three times all against a ten up in high negative counts while heads up. Even though it was a bad play, two of the three I turned losers into winners and the other time I busted but would have lost had I stayed anyway.
Quote: AxelWolfUmm... you did?
It sounds You indicated for her to hit.
No where in my post does it say or imply "hand" signal. My signals were undetectable and not audible.
Quote: AxelWolfQuote: GreasyjohnObviously they were undetectable, that's why she hit hard 17.
So you're suggesting we had signals that she couldn't detect? Did you ever read the post after I corrected my error? Are you aware that in some negative counts hitting a hard 17 vs an ace is the correct play?
Ahh.. your correct. I guess I was confused since your story changed.Quote: GreasyjohnNo where in my post does it say or imply "hand" signal. My signals were undetectable and not audible.
Let me rephrase my question: WHY all the signaling when to hit or stand? Why not just sit next to her and tell her what to do?
I would love to know what signals you could possibly use that were undetectable by the casino, yet a seemingly a un-experienced or even an expert Black Jack player would not get confused with often. It would seem more complicated to properly learn how to read casino undetectable signals over just learning counting and strategy changes for ones self.
Quote: AxelWolfWHY all the signaling when to hit or stand? Why not just sit next to her and tell her what to do?Quote: GreasyjohnMy signals were undetectable and not audible.
Yeah, that's what I want to know too. :)
It's like developing an intricate, undetectable system to let your wife know when you're hungry. WHY????? Especially when you can easily just tell her?? lol
Quote: Beethoven9thYeah, that's what I want to know too. :)
It's like developing an intricate, undetectable system to let your wife know when you're hungry. WHY????? Especially when you can easily just tell her?? lol
Dont know why, but that reminded me of that joke: What do you do if your dishwasher stops working?.................................. Punch her.
Quote: AxelWolfDont know why, but that reminded me of that joke: What do you do if your dishwasher stops working?.................................. Punch her.
Nice!
Quote: AxelWolfDont know why, but that reminded me of that joke: What do you do if your dishwasher stops working?.................................. Punch her.
Haha...I meant telling her at the casino & then going to a restaurant for a bite. I like your take better though. ;)
I tell my GF them jokes all the time, she laughs. since she dose do the dishes by hand. Every few 6 months I'll mix the wording up a bit and casually say, I think, I need to get a new dishwasher, She looks at me and basically says Why, you don't do the dishes? or something like that. I smirk and say, I know, you're just not working out. She will say, Go for it. She can do our laundry to or something smart ass. She especially liked that: What do you tell a woman with 2 black eyes..............Nothing you already told her twice.Quote: Beethoven9thHaha...I meant telling her at the casino & then going to a restaurant for a bite. I like your take better though. ;)
Quote: AxelWolfAhh.. your correct. I guess I was confused since your story changed.
Let me rephrase my question: WHY all the signaling when to hit or stand? Why not just sit next to her and tell her what to do?
I would love to know what signals you could possibly use that were undetectable by the casino, yet a seemingly a un-experienced or even an expert Black Jack player would not get confused with often. It would seem more complicated to properly learn how to read casino undetectable signals over just learning counting and strategy changes for ones self.
No card counter would verbally tell his girlfriend when and how to deviate from basic strategy. The correlation between the deviation and the count would be obvious. But I could not teach her the indices and tables; it's many times harder to teach someone that than it is to learn basic strategy. And few people are willing to put in all the work to gain an approximately 1 percent or so advantage. Regarding signals, you only have to learn two. Before she bets you signal to raise or lower the bet (two signals). Then, before she makes her decision there's NO signal if she's to play basic strategy, and a signal (any of the two signals she already knows would do) if she's to deviate from basic strategy ( ie., hit if you would normally stand, stand when you would normally hit, double if you would normally hit, hit if you would normally double, split if you would normally not split, don't split when you would normally split, insure when you normally wouldn't). This is not as hard as it seems after you try it for a while. As far as my signals go I'd prefer no to be specific, but there are endless possibilities. You could start a sentence with a vowel just before one makes their decision ( if they're to deviate). "I'd like to get a drink." "Are you hungry yet?" Or my hand might be closer to my chips than 5 inches. That's pretty easy to not confuse. None of the touch your nose, stroke your hair hold your cigarette in your left hand stuff.
Quote: AxelWolfAhh.. your correct. I guess I was confused since your story changed.
Let me rephrase my question: WHY all the signaling when to hit or stand? Why not just sit next to her and tell her what to do?
I would love to know what signals you could possibly use that were undetectable by the casino, yet a seemingly a un-experienced or even an expert Black Jack player would not get confused with often. It would seem more complicated to properly learn how to read casino undetectable signals over just learning counting and strategy changes for ones self.
It was part of his act. He wanted her to make the correct index play but not indicate that he was instructing her. Hence the "NO!" as she's hitting, even though he told her to.
Quote: AcesAndEightsIt was part of his act. He wanted her to make the correct index play but not indicate that he was instructing her. Hence the "NO!" as she's hitting, even though he told her to.
I still don't understand why you are still playing at -6TC. You could go over to the 6:5 sucker table and do better off the top.
Bathroom break? Phone call? Asthma attack? The possibilities are endless.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI still don't understand why you are still playing at -6TC. You could go over to the 6:5 sucker table and do better off the top.
Bathroom break? Phone call? Asthma attack? The possibilities are endless.
Bathroom break- check.
Phone call- check.
Asthma attack- will soon add this one to my tool box. Thanks.
Ohhhh! My ovaries!
Quote: AxelWolfDont know why, but that reminded me of that joke: What do you do if your dishwasher stops working?.................................. Punch her.
Ouch! How do you know your wife is dead? The sex is the same but the dishes start piling up.
Quote: 1BBOuch! How do you know your wife is dead? The sex is the same but the dishes start piling up.
I haven't spoke to my wife in years. I don't want to interrupt her.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI still don't understand why you are still playing at -6TC. You could go over to the 6:5 sucker table and do better off the top.
Bathroom break? Phone call? Asthma attack? The possibilities are endless.
I have occasionally stood up and backed away from the table to take a phantom cell phone call, but in SD and DD I usually don't do that, the negative stretches don't last nearly as long as they might in a shoe game. I also don't Wong. I woudn't play the game if I had to Wong-In if the TC is plus one or so, and besides, very few places will let you Wong-In in a DD or SD game. Plus, Wonging-Out or -in would stick out. Also, in SD the count can change a lot in just a few moments. You could be sitting in fourth position, start the hand at 0, and it could go to -6TC before you make your decision.
Remember that everyone (ploppie or AP) needs to use the bathroom sometimes. I think that cutting your bet way back is actually MORE suspicious-looking than going to the bathroom.
Quote: KeyserSozeI haven't spoke to my wife in years. I don't want to interrupt her.
I got a truck for my wife, it was a good trade.
She also had Pms I knew what that meant. .Pack my suitcase.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI don't think that there is any count which dictates you hit any hard 17. That said, I've done it three times all against a ten up in high negative counts while heads up. Even though it was a bad play, two of the three I turned losers into winners and the other time I busted but would have lost had I stayed anyway. Edit. I think 17 vs A at -4TC becomes a hit. I'll have to recheck.
Maybe you blackjack guys can answer this question for me. When I played the full pay IGT video blackjack I gleaned the single deck composition strategy off the Wizard of Odds site. But the one rule in the game I couldn't get the strategy for was the 6 Card Charlie rule. In this video blackjack game if you made a 6 Card Charlie you AUTOMATICALLY WON.
Since I couldn't get this strategy off WOO I was dependent on other pros who told me the strategy. This is the strategy I was given for when you have FIVE CARDS IN YOUR HAND:
12, 13, 14, 15 = HIT
16 vs. dealer 4,5,6 = STAND, OTHERWISE HIT
17 vs. dealer 8,9,T,A = HIT, OTHERWISE STAND
I always wondered about the strategy of the 17 hitting against an 8,9,T,A. Can any of you guys shed some light?
14 hit all
15 stay vs 4,5,6
16 stay 2-6
This is for 5 card hands.There are additional changes for 4 card hands.
Quote: HunterhillAccording to Wong,
14 hit all
15 stay vs 4,5,6
16 stay 2-6
This is for 5 card hands.There are additional changes for 4 card hands.
Thanks for the response. Lucky for me the five-card 17 vs. 8,9,T,A was a very rare situation.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI understand not Wonging-in (if they don't let you, or if you don't think you can back-count non-obviously) but I think that not leaving at a -6 TC is a big mistake. Sure, it MIGHT turn around, but it also might not. Note that the TC does not tend to revert to 0 as you deal more cards (the RC does but not the TC -- re-read BJ Attack if you don't believe me!) so if you start a hand at -6TC, the expected starting TC for the next hand (and every subsequent hand until the shuffle) is also -6. Therefore, no reason to stay -- you are playing the rest of the shoe/deck at an expected 3% disadvantage (over and above the house edge off-the-top). You are (literally) better off sitting at a 6:5 table, reasoning that, well, the count might go up to +6 before the next hand.
Remember that everyone (ploppie or AP) needs to use the bathroom sometimes. I think that cutting your bet way back is actually MORE suspicious-looking than going to the bathroom.
Also it's not all that uncommon for ploppies to just sit out until the shuffle at DD or SD, especially if the shoe/deck up to that point has been brutal. Only works if there are other players, of course.
Quote: mickeycrimmMaybe you blackjack guys can answer this question for me. When I played the full pay IGT video blackjack I gleaned the single deck composition strategy off the Wizard of Odds site. But the one rule in the game I couldn't get the strategy for was the 6 Card Charlie rule. In this video blackjack game if you made a 6 Card Charlie you AUTOMATICALLY WON.
Since I couldn't get this strategy off WOO I was dependent on other pros who told me the strategy. This is the strategy I was given for when you have FIVE CARDS IN YOUR HAND:
12, 13, 14, 15 = HIT
16 vs. dealer 4,5,6 = STAND, OTHERWISE HIT
17 vs. dealer 8,9,T,A = HIT, OTHERWISE STAND
I always wondered about the strategy of the 17 hitting against an 8,9,T,A. Can any of you guys shed some light?
This is from the Wizard's BJ appendix 1;
I'm looking at the huge break on how often you lose on 17 v. 8-9-T-A when standing, vs standing 17 against 7 or less.
You're losing .38 against an 8, higher as they go up. But a charlie is a sure win, and you win for sure 4/13 hands, or 30.77%, lose for sure 9 of 13; no "beat the dealer's total" left to worry about.
Hitting, you lose more than half the time on those particular cards, again getting worse as the dealer upcards improve. But an ace hit - charlie (for example) will win against ALL of those hands, not just lower ones. So, since that only has to change your advantage from the difference between hitting and standing, not the absolute amount of either, it pretty much makes sense that it's worth hitting. (Wimped out on figuring the exact numbers, but there's logical sense in it. Might make a good ATW question, to figure out the edge, unless I just haven't seen where he's published it.)
Quote: HunterhillI think this chart is for multi deck.Wongs numbers were for single deck.
You're right about the decks; this chart is for infinite decks. I meant for it to be an example, not definitive, because I don't have the math skills, but it could well matter.
Quote: beachbumbabsYou're right about the decks; this chart is for infinite decks. I meant for it to be an example, not definitive, because I don't have the math skills, but it could well matter.
Thanks for the input, Babs. The problem with hitting a five-card 17 in a single deck is you always have some of the cards you need in your hand. Example: You hold T,2,2,2,A against a dealer 8. If you hit there are only 12 of 46 cards that will automatically win for you. So the win rate is 12/46 = 26%. One would have to know how often T,2,2,2,A wins by standing against an 8 to make the correct decision which way to go. With the myriad of combinations the dealer can make, that is math that is way over my head.
