Why Don't They Try to Beat Blackjack?
April 2nd, 2013 at 5:52:52 AM
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I have on rare occasions asked basic strategy blackjack players why they don't learn a counting system. Some of the answers are obvious: "It's too hard," "I want to have fun when I play and not work," "I tried, I get confused." More often than not the response is simply, "I don't want to."
I have asked non-basic strategy players the same questions. Their answers are not similar: "Card counting doesn't work," "Card counting is illegal," "You have to be a genius to do it" and (the best) "I wouldn't be able to drink if I did that."
We all know that you do not have to be a genius to count cards. Most card counters are just average people. Card counting is a skill similar to riding a bike. Yes, there are some people who cannot handle it or they get confused when trying to do it. But these people are in the minority...I think.
Since my survey is obviously of such a small group I was wondering what others think about the simple questions: Why don't all (or most) blackjack players learn a counting system? If a game can be beaten, why not try to beat it? Why go into a game that you know you will lose the longer you play it?
I have asked non-basic strategy players the same questions. Their answers are not similar: "Card counting doesn't work," "Card counting is illegal," "You have to be a genius to do it" and (the best) "I wouldn't be able to drink if I did that."
We all know that you do not have to be a genius to count cards. Most card counters are just average people. Card counting is a skill similar to riding a bike. Yes, there are some people who cannot handle it or they get confused when trying to do it. But these people are in the minority...I think.
Since my survey is obviously of such a small group I was wondering what others think about the simple questions: Why don't all (or most) blackjack players learn a counting system? If a game can be beaten, why not try to beat it? Why go into a game that you know you will lose the longer you play it?
April 2nd, 2013 at 6:32:55 AM
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I don't play much BJ because I get annoyed at the other players giving me crap for not playing the side bet.
But when I used to play, I didn't play a lot. Maybe a couple hours out of a multiple day trip. With that short of a session, it's not gonna make enough of a difference, so why bother? Also, like you mentioned, I want it to be fun, not work.
The biggest reason I don't count is because of the math. Don't get me wrong. I'm fairly intelligent, and enjoy math. But sit me down at a BJ table, and suddenly the simple addition required to play a hand with more than two cards becomes a challenge. You want me to keep a running count at the same time? No friggin way.
But when I used to play, I didn't play a lot. Maybe a couple hours out of a multiple day trip. With that short of a session, it's not gonna make enough of a difference, so why bother? Also, like you mentioned, I want it to be fun, not work.
The biggest reason I don't count is because of the math. Don't get me wrong. I'm fairly intelligent, and enjoy math. But sit me down at a BJ table, and suddenly the simple addition required to play a hand with more than two cards becomes a challenge. You want me to keep a running count at the same time? No friggin way.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 2nd, 2013 at 6:39:43 AM
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1. Because counting is work ("math & arithmetic homework") instead of play (gambling).
2. Because you're getting your juice not from gambling, but from trying to beat the house's game protection as the real goal instead.
3. Because it is against the house rules, and a few people play by the rules.
4. Because some people feel that a win eeked out by breaking the rules of play isn't a real win - unless you're playing a different game.
5. Because you're suppose to pay the admission charge of the house edge.
6. Because it no longer works well.
2. Because you're getting your juice not from gambling, but from trying to beat the house's game protection as the real goal instead.
3. Because it is against the house rules, and a few people play by the rules.
4. Because some people feel that a win eeked out by breaking the rules of play isn't a real win - unless you're playing a different game.
5. Because you're suppose to pay the admission charge of the house edge.
6. Because it no longer works well.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 2nd, 2013 at 6:48:22 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
April 2nd, 2013 at 6:50:44 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesI would say most people think its too hard. When I first saw books about it, I thought the same thing. But once I started learning, I was surprised how easy it is. Been working great for me and I'll never stop.
Then you'd better pay your admission fee at the door. :-)
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
April 2nd, 2013 at 6:54:10 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
April 2nd, 2013 at 6:59:03 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesSomeone else bought the ticket for me!
The ticket was torn up! :)
In a poker room, I never "short" the house on the pot rake, nor do I want to. I'm the same way in the pit.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 2nd, 2013 at 7:07:43 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
April 2nd, 2013 at 7:15:23 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesPoker has a set "cost", bj doesn't. I dealt poker also and never shorted a pot either.
All games have a set cost, called the built-in house edge (pit) or rake (poker room). Same in the pit as in the poker room.
Trying to defeat it through any method, from card mucking, hole carding, marking cards, card counting, pinching and capping bets, is against house rules of the play of the game. This is why people get backed off, flat-betted, and 86'd.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 2nd, 2013 at 7:18:55 AM
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I did count decades ago, but it did feel like work! I can make substantially more by working than by playing BJ as work. Most players do not expect nor count on winning at a casino. For me now the risk of substantial negative variance, and the required bankroll to be prepared for it, is not worth it to eke out a small percentage advantage. BJ is such a boring game now, at least to me. I'd rather 'pay' the casino by playing pai Gow poker, Tiles, or Asia Poker. I know it is entertainment, and not a money making opportunity.
So, bottom line, I can count, but never want to up my bet from $20 to $300 because I now have a 51-49 edge. I choose not to have a gambling bankroll to support that.
So, bottom line, I can count, but never want to up my bet from $20 to $300 because I now have a 51-49 edge. I choose not to have a gambling bankroll to support that.
April 2nd, 2013 at 7:25:01 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
April 2nd, 2013 at 7:25:09 AM
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Way too much work to gain a 1% advantage.....I prefer a 2% disadvantage and drink beer.Quote: SOOPOOI did count decades ago, but it did feel like work! I can make substantially more by working than by playing BJ as work. Most players do not expect nor count on winning at a casino. For me now the risk of substantial negative variance, and the required bankroll to be prepared for it, is not worth it to eke out a small percentage advantage. BJ is such a boring game now, at least to me. I'd rather 'pay' the casino by playing pai Gow poker, Tiles, or Asia Poker. I know it is entertainment, and not a money making opportunity.
So, bottom line, I can count, but never want to up my bet from $20 to $300 because I now have a 51-49 edge. I choose not to have a gambling bankroll to support that.
Each day is better than the next
April 2nd, 2013 at 7:27:27 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
April 2nd, 2013 at 7:32:50 AM
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Precisely. It doesn't matter if eventually I might be able to master the task and perform it while slurping my drink and staring at the dealer's tits. No friggin way. Period.Quote: DJTeddyBearBut sit me down at a BJ table, and suddenly the simple addition required to play a hand with more than two cards becomes a challenge. You want me to keep a running count at the same time? No friggin way.
April 2nd, 2013 at 7:37:10 AM
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This is why I don't play BJ.
1. The count is in my favor and the dealer still wins!
2. I play perfect basic strategy and the dealer still wins!
3. The dealer goes last!
1. The count is in my favor and the dealer still wins!
2. I play perfect basic strategy and the dealer still wins!
3. The dealer goes last!
April 2nd, 2013 at 7:40:13 AM
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exactly, FatJeeeeeeeesus!Quote: FatGeezusThis is why I don't play BJ.
1. The count is in my favor and the dealer still wins!
2. I play perfect basic strategy and the dealer still wins!
3. The dealer goes last!
Each day is better than the next
April 2nd, 2013 at 7:42:25 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
April 2nd, 2013 at 8:26:57 AM
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FS,
Been lurking here for some time but figured this would be a good time for my first post, since I'm currently wrestling with this topic, and also in general enjoy your musings, bordering on being a fan.
For me, it boils down to this. The reason I enjoy bj and other forms of gambling, is that I like numbers, calculations, and math in general. I am by no means world class in terms of mathematics abilities, but certainly in the upper percentiles in terms of the general population.
What I don't like, for the most part, is people. Maybe that's an oversimplification, but in general I am confused and repulsed by much of the social interaction I observe (casinos and elsewhere). Many times I feel like an outsider looking in on a species that I don't understand. And while my social interaction skills might not be spectacularly poor, they are certainly below average.
On the mechanical side, counting is something I think I could do for a living. However, the thought of being interrupted by a pit boss asking me what I'm doing, then me breaking out in a cold sweat, then having to go to a different casino with some sort of a disguise and pretend I'm a lawyer from Mississippi, has been enough to dissuade me to date.
I suspect I'm not the only one in a forum filled with math nerds with at least with some flavor of this feeling.
Been lurking here for some time but figured this would be a good time for my first post, since I'm currently wrestling with this topic, and also in general enjoy your musings, bordering on being a fan.
For me, it boils down to this. The reason I enjoy bj and other forms of gambling, is that I like numbers, calculations, and math in general. I am by no means world class in terms of mathematics abilities, but certainly in the upper percentiles in terms of the general population.
What I don't like, for the most part, is people. Maybe that's an oversimplification, but in general I am confused and repulsed by much of the social interaction I observe (casinos and elsewhere). Many times I feel like an outsider looking in on a species that I don't understand. And while my social interaction skills might not be spectacularly poor, they are certainly below average.
On the mechanical side, counting is something I think I could do for a living. However, the thought of being interrupted by a pit boss asking me what I'm doing, then me breaking out in a cold sweat, then having to go to a different casino with some sort of a disguise and pretend I'm a lawyer from Mississippi, has been enough to dissuade me to date.
I suspect I'm not the only one in a forum filled with math nerds with at least with some flavor of this feeling.
April 2nd, 2013 at 8:37:59 AM
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There are so many games that can beaten, why focus on the most difficult game to beat with the smallest edge? Card counting blackjack is yesterday's news. If you really want to do something for players, Frank, why not focus on the myriad opportunities that offer a much higher and proven player edge and require a smaller bankroll? I ask this because I wonder at the motivation for pushing card counting in this era of proprietary games and side bets. Card counting, the single method that casinos know how to protect better than any other game. Why place this baggage on players by holding them to antiquated methods instead of enlightening them to modern methods? Why don't you educate yourself on these methods and give them a try yourself? Get out there and hole-card Mississippi Stud a bit, Frank, with it's 50% plus player edge, then try pushing card counting. You'll find it hard to take yourself seriously.Quote: FrankScobleteSince my survey is obviously of such a small group I was wondering what others think about the simple questions: Why don't all (or most) blackjack players learn a counting system? If a game can be beaten, why not try to beat it? Why go into a game that you know you will lose the longer you play it?
As to the point of why players would rather lose than win, I address that point at great length in MY blackjack book, which I will not be pushing here, out of courtesy to Mike and this site.
Best regards,
Eliot
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
April 2nd, 2013 at 8:41:55 AM
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Quote: Paigowdan1. Because counting is work ("math & arithmetic homework") instead of play (gambling).
2. Because you're getting your juice not from gambling, but from trying to beat the house's game protection as the real goal instead.
3. Because it is against the house rules, and a few people play by the rules.
4. Because some people feel that a win eeked out by breaking the rules of play isn't a real win - unless you're playing a different game.
5. Because you're suppose to pay the admission charge of the house edge.
6. Because it no longer works well.
Dan, with a lot of respect I would like to address some of this. I think you're partly right. I also think Frank has a lot of it right.
Addressing your first point: I'm one of the "It's too much like work" people. But understand this: It's not because it's hard, it's because I don't play enough to maintain the edge.
Did you ever teach yourself how to juggle? I did. It was fun. I learned the opposite hand, then the circular, then I showed off a few times. And that was it. I mean, how much juggling can you really do, if you aren't interested in being a juggler?
Same with card counting. OK, so I learn it, and I practice it, and I figure I can go into the casino and count some cards, and I learn all the stuff about increasing my bet strategically, and all that. "Honey, when are we going to the casino next? A week from Thursday? Great!" And then the next time is what, 3 months later? Seriously. I have better things to do with my free time than practice card counting, a skill that I will need for about 5 hours every 3 months. I'd rather see a movie. Hell, I'd rather watch old Family Feuds.
Addressing your second and third points: Honestly, if it interested me I could get juiced from trying to beat the house. No disrespect, but it is within the rules, and I even think within the spirit of the game. It's not the actual game, it's a metagame.
Your fourth point I think has some merit, and actually gets pretty deep. If you were playing Michael Jordan one-on-one, and discovered that by rubbing your forehead you could make him freeze for 2 seconds, would winning be fun? I suppose if you were supporting yourself by winning those games, it would have some merit. If you preferred to make a living through trading productivity for wages, the game might get old. Unless, of course, you are playing the metagame.
Five and six, I'll dismiss those as not relevant. Regarding 5, The casino offers games. people play them. Regarding 6, Counting will work well for some, but the casino looks at the sum of all outcomes and decides it doesn't work well on a global scale across all gamblers and counters. And the sun rises tomorrow.
A falling knife has no handle.
April 2nd, 2013 at 9:16:14 AM
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removed
silly
Sally
silly
Sally
I Heart Vi Hart
April 2nd, 2013 at 9:36:29 AM
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Welcome back, but I just gotta say, based on your writing: Are you 7craps' granddaughter?Quote: mustangsallySally
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
April 2nd, 2013 at 9:48:32 AM
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The game in and of itself is not very fun for me. The fact that I can beat the game is where the fun is at.
If I played on a football team that year after year was sub 500 I would find a new team or quit playing.
If I played on a football team that year after year was sub 500 I would find a new team or quit playing.
April 2nd, 2013 at 9:49:28 AM
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If he is 55 and I am 22 then I guess I could be. But he is actually my uncle. I think I mentioned that before.Quote: teddysWelcome back, but I just gotta say, based on your writing: Are you 7craps' granddaughter?
he did help me a lot in math when I was in school because my husband, who is a math genius, would not help me. I always had to figure things out on my own.
I do not think my style of writing looks like his, I would rather have it look like BruceZ.
My singing style is like Mariah Carey's because I luv her, not that I try to sing like her.
Sally
I Heart Vi Hart
April 2nd, 2013 at 9:49:57 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
April 2nd, 2013 at 10:18:59 AM
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I would rather spend a summer Sunday afternoon on the deck, reading book... with the baseball game on the radio in the background, and a couple racks of ribs in the smoker, and some potato salad chilling in the fridge... than win a few hundred dollars counting cards at blackjack.
That, among many things. It's like asking someone why they don't like golf, because you JUST LOVE IT!!!!! You couldn't pay me to like golfing. And you can't pay me to count cards at blackjack.
That, among many things. It's like asking someone why they don't like golf, because you JUST LOVE IT!!!!! You couldn't pay me to like golfing. And you can't pay me to count cards at blackjack.
A falling knife has no handle.
April 2nd, 2013 at 10:25:33 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
April 2nd, 2013 at 11:41:15 AM
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Quote: teliotWhy place this baggage on players by holding them to antiquated methods instead of enlightening them to modern methods? Why don't you educate yourself on these methods and give them a try yourself? Get out there and hole-card Mississippi Stud a bit, Frank, with it's 50% plus player edge, then try pushing card counting. You'll find it hard to take yourself seriously.
In my opinion, hole carding borders on cheating by taking advantage of information that is not available to all the players. I'd rather beat them at card counting, than cheat them with sneaking peeks at dealers cards.
Casino reporter, enjoys blackjack/baccarat card counting, Bay Area poker pro, JSTAT@Casino_Examiner on Twitter
April 2nd, 2013 at 12:08:15 PM
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Dan,
Honestly can't tell if you're trolling or not. You are comparing counting cards with a dealer shorting the rake in poker? One is playing by the rules, one isn't.
Counting cards is simply using your brain to play blackjack completely within the rules of the game! The casino offers the game; nowhere is it written that the players must play their hands poorly.
I suspect you have tried to count cards and, finding you couldn't do it, dismiss it as "cheating" when no reasonable person would consider playing a game by the rules set forth as cheating.
Honestly can't tell if you're trolling or not. You are comparing counting cards with a dealer shorting the rake in poker? One is playing by the rules, one isn't.
Counting cards is simply using your brain to play blackjack completely within the rules of the game! The casino offers the game; nowhere is it written that the players must play their hands poorly.
I suspect you have tried to count cards and, finding you couldn't do it, dismiss it as "cheating" when no reasonable person would consider playing a game by the rules set forth as cheating.
April 2nd, 2013 at 12:14:03 PM
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Quote: Paigowdan
3. Because it is against the house rules, and a few people play by the rules.
.
Where can I find those rules? Thanks in advance.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
April 2nd, 2013 at 12:27:21 PM
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Quote: EvenBobWhere can I find those rules? Thanks in advance.
Are you talking about those rules were all supposed to know but no one has ever seen? :)
April 2nd, 2013 at 12:40:09 PM
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Quote: rainmanAre you talking about those rules were all supposed to know but no one has ever seen? :)
Exactly. And if you ask the casino if counting cards is
against the rules, they won't tell you. Ask them and see.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
April 2nd, 2013 at 12:52:04 PM
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Quote: Paigowdan1. Because counting is work ("math & arithmetic homework") instead of play (gambling).
2. Because you're getting your juice not from gambling, but from trying to beat the house's game protection as the real goal instead.
3. Because it is against the house rules, and a few people play by the rules.
4. Because some people feel that a win eeked out by breaking the rules of play isn't a real win - unless you're playing a different game.
5. Because you're suppose to pay the admission charge of the house edge.
6. Because it no longer works well.
No, PGD! Not again!!! (#3 and #4).
I count whenever I play, and have no problem doing it. I don't reduce and raise my bets beyond detection however, and I don't have problems making a game's odds better by using information that is given to me. I don't see the casino giving away basic strategy cards so they welcome unskilled players. If the casino didn't want me to have that information, there would be CSMs in place of real decks. And that's my point. There is a reason why casinos go with hand shuffled blackjack -- because the percentage of wanna-be counters who are unsuccessful far outweigh the successful ones. Casinos want these customers knowing full well that they can ban anyone's whose action is "too good"
But Blackjack is only one game I play. I don't hole card or use any other methods, because frankly, I'm lazy in that sense. Generally, when I gamble I go to play and have fun, and counting takes away from that after awhile.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
April 2nd, 2013 at 2:21:30 PM
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I believe the reason most blackjack players who are certainly smart enough and perfectly capable of learning to count cards STILL don't do it... is simply because they realize that the effort most likely won't be sufficiently rewarded, because they know they simply won't ever PLAY enough to make it worthwhile.
They may not consciously realize this, not in any strict dollars/time calculation sense, I mean... but they know it intuitively.
Variance and bankroll requirements are such that even IF you count and play perfectly, if you don't get enough hands into play in a reasonable time frame, you're still just gambling. Getting at least into N0 (N-Zero) is necessary, and really preferably double that to be sure you're making a profit.
The answer here is simple: TEAM PLAY!!
However, most people don't have enough interested friends to form a real team for themselves.
Most people who are interested in blackjack simply have to go and play by themselves, if they're gonna play at all.
It's really a pretty lonely hobby, in that sense... even though the casinos are packed with like-minded people all around you!!
Kind of ironic in that sense ;)
On my website, we're actually working on a solution to all of this, for blackjack players located in & around the Detroit market area.
Without going into too much of what we're working on, out of respect to Mike & not wanting to hijack this thread, what we're trying to build is basically a web-based organization and infrastructure that will enable PART-TIME, NON-PRO blackjack players to benefit from a TEAM ATTACK approach to the game.
We have a "Focus Group" topic on our Forum right now, that's kicking around the details of this idea. If all goes well, I'm hoping we'll be able to actually launch it later this year.
To FRANK, or indeed anyone else here who might be interested in this, we'll have our Forum's "open house" policy in effect for a little while longer, while we're working on this. That means anyone who would like a log-in to our Forum can get one, just by registering, for now... although later on, we WILL be going back to the fully *closed* and *private* forum policy. This "open house" is only temporary.
You don't have to be from Detroit to participate in the Forum: we have members from all over the country, although obviously this will be more interesting to locals for when it comes time to actually meet up and play blackjack in the Detroit casinos :)
-DBJT
They may not consciously realize this, not in any strict dollars/time calculation sense, I mean... but they know it intuitively.
Variance and bankroll requirements are such that even IF you count and play perfectly, if you don't get enough hands into play in a reasonable time frame, you're still just gambling. Getting at least into N0 (N-Zero) is necessary, and really preferably double that to be sure you're making a profit.
The answer here is simple: TEAM PLAY!!
However, most people don't have enough interested friends to form a real team for themselves.
Most people who are interested in blackjack simply have to go and play by themselves, if they're gonna play at all.
It's really a pretty lonely hobby, in that sense... even though the casinos are packed with like-minded people all around you!!
Kind of ironic in that sense ;)
On my website, we're actually working on a solution to all of this, for blackjack players located in & around the Detroit market area.
Without going into too much of what we're working on, out of respect to Mike & not wanting to hijack this thread, what we're trying to build is basically a web-based organization and infrastructure that will enable PART-TIME, NON-PRO blackjack players to benefit from a TEAM ATTACK approach to the game.
We have a "Focus Group" topic on our Forum right now, that's kicking around the details of this idea. If all goes well, I'm hoping we'll be able to actually launch it later this year.
To FRANK, or indeed anyone else here who might be interested in this, we'll have our Forum's "open house" policy in effect for a little while longer, while we're working on this. That means anyone who would like a log-in to our Forum can get one, just by registering, for now... although later on, we WILL be going back to the fully *closed* and *private* forum policy. This "open house" is only temporary.
You don't have to be from Detroit to participate in the Forum: we have members from all over the country, although obviously this will be more interesting to locals for when it comes time to actually meet up and play blackjack in the Detroit casinos :)
-DBJT
--
http://www.detroitblackjackteam.com/
April 4th, 2013 at 11:22:41 AM
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Blackjack for me is entertainment and I want to interact with the players and dealer order drinks and such; not focus my attention on keeping track of my cards. I'll have a loose idea of where the count might be. For instance if I just saw 5 aces the last hand, I'll probably take my bet down to the minimum. If I have seen a lot of low cards lately, I'll push some more chips in. I pretend to myself that this maybe gets me to fair odds and is simple enough to keep track of and arbitrary enough that I won't attract heat.
On a side note, I am shocked how people think most blackjack players are raging assholes that will blame all their loses on them. I played quite a bit of blackjack last month at a multitude of casinos with not one instance of that.
On a side note, I am shocked how people think most blackjack players are raging assholes that will blame all their loses on them. I played quite a bit of blackjack last month at a multitude of casinos with not one instance of that.
April 4th, 2013 at 11:48:52 AM
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Agree with many. I go to a casino once a month for a night or weekend and basically want to have fun. Do I want to win, of course, but to practice card counting to grind out a possible $100 win just is not worth it. i would rather have a few sambucca's and beers and just not worry about it. Now if I observed a serious trend in low versus high cards that is just plain as day, I might alter my betting but I have better things to do than practice card counting when most BJ games are under a 1% HE. Plus I find games like UTH much more fun to play.
April 4th, 2013 at 11:54:06 AM
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I would just like to inform those who don't already know, The actual act or ability to count cards is the easiest part of being a counter. Its all the other components that make it tough, And dictate weather you will succeed.
April 5th, 2013 at 11:55:40 AM
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Question for all you guys who replied previously in this thread with "I just want to play cards" or "counting is work not play" type of answers.
You do realize that counting DOES work, correct? Even if you intuitively know that playing alone, you're unlikely to get enough hands played to make it worthwhile in any short-term time period... you nevertheless do understand the basic concepts of WHY keeping track of low and high cards and adjusting bets, actually DOES WORK to win long-term, yes?
What if -- during the course of your normal playing time in the casino -- you could devote only an hour or so to working with a team organization? The team would provide the chips and your only obligation would be to *absolutely obey* directions, for where to play, how to play, and when to STOP. After your session ends, ALL chips are immediately returned to your team handler: your WIN or LOSS doesn't matter -- you are credited for the work based on a percentage of actual +EV (expected value) which would be paid to you whenever the team reaches a significant milestone. In this scenario, you can choose to put in as much or as little "team time" as you like, and otherwise just continue to do whatever it is that you normally do on your own in the casino.
Would something like this still take away too much from your "it's just fun" gambling time, or would it be worthwhile to you to have some actual, mathematically proven positive expectation play, integrated in with your normal gambling time?
-DBJT
You do realize that counting DOES work, correct? Even if you intuitively know that playing alone, you're unlikely to get enough hands played to make it worthwhile in any short-term time period... you nevertheless do understand the basic concepts of WHY keeping track of low and high cards and adjusting bets, actually DOES WORK to win long-term, yes?
What if -- during the course of your normal playing time in the casino -- you could devote only an hour or so to working with a team organization? The team would provide the chips and your only obligation would be to *absolutely obey* directions, for where to play, how to play, and when to STOP. After your session ends, ALL chips are immediately returned to your team handler: your WIN or LOSS doesn't matter -- you are credited for the work based on a percentage of actual +EV (expected value) which would be paid to you whenever the team reaches a significant milestone. In this scenario, you can choose to put in as much or as little "team time" as you like, and otherwise just continue to do whatever it is that you normally do on your own in the casino.
Would something like this still take away too much from your "it's just fun" gambling time, or would it be worthwhile to you to have some actual, mathematically proven positive expectation play, integrated in with your normal gambling time?
-DBJT
--
http://www.detroitblackjackteam.com/
April 5th, 2013 at 12:21:40 PM
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In the early 90's I read John Thorpe's book and had a nice six month run playing blackjack at a local illegal gambling house and then on gambling junkets to Mississippi sponored by the proprietor of the house. I was regularly taking a $200 bankroll and doubling or tripling it in 2-4 hours for those 6 months. Then variance caught up with me and I lost $600 playing single deck blackjack in Pass St Christian. So I learned even if you can turn yourself into the house you are still at the mercy of the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and that combined with Murphys Law says you will be bit at the worst possible time. I still play blackjack and seem to have a knack for it counting or not (lucky I guess) but I agree with the previous comments in that playing blackjack to me is kind of like watching paint dry. When my bankroll gets low I play blackjack until I build my bankroll up enough to go blow it on dice, Ultimate Texas Hold Em or slots.
Gambling is a metaphor for life. Hang around long enough and it's all gone.
April 5th, 2013 at 1:33:37 PM
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Quote: DBJTWhat if -- during the course of your normal playing time in the casino -- you could devote only an hour or so to working with a team organization? The team would provide the chips and your only obligation would be to *absolutely obey* directions, for where to play, how to play, and when to STOP. After your session ends, ALL chips are immediately returned to your team handler: your WIN or LOSS doesn't matter -- you are credited for the work based on a percentage of actual +EV (expected value) which would be paid to you whenever the team reaches a significant milestone. In this scenario, you can choose to put in as much or as little "team time" as you like, and otherwise just continue to do whatever it is that you normally do on your own in the casino.
Holy crap! Now counting, which previously merely sounded like work, now sounds like a job!
News flash: I got a job. I also got someone who often tells me what and when to do stuff. "Wife."
I go to a casino to escape, and to HAVE FUN!
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 5th, 2013 at 1:45:51 PM
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Quote: DBJTyour only obligation would be to *absolutely obey* directions...
Obligations and absolutely obeying directions are, for the vast majority of people, entirely antithetical to the reasons they go to casinos in the first place.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
April 5th, 2013 at 2:17:10 PM
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Quote: EvenBobWhere can I find those rules? Thanks in advance.
Show me someone who doesn't know they exist. Show me a counter who plays as if they don't exist. If it's not against the rules, go ahead. Count. Not the way you do now, but honestly, bet the maximum when it's in your favor, the minimum or nothing when it isn't. If it isn't against the rules, you should have no problem.
Just because they're not written anywhere doesn't mean they don't exist.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
April 5th, 2013 at 2:50:00 PM
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Quote: 24BingoShow me someone who doesn't know they exist. Show me a counter who plays as if they don't exist. If it's not against the rules, go ahead. Count. Not the way you do now, but honestly, bet the maximum when it's in your favor, the minimum or nothing when it isn't. If it isn't against the rules, you should have no problem.
Just because they're not written anywhere doesn't mean they don't exist.
This is all very true Bingo but I would just feel more comfortable if the house would publish these rules.
It seems they don't so they can change them on a whim to suit their needs.
April 5th, 2013 at 3:18:18 PM
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I looked at the work vs. money made. It's a lot of work to eek out a small edge, and if I'm only making 5-10 an hour for the constant work and concentration, why bother? Plus, I could always get backed off and since I like other games, why should I take that risk?
April 5th, 2013 at 3:27:40 PM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
April 5th, 2013 at 7:02:36 PM
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Quote: JSTATIn my opinion, hole carding borders on cheating by taking advantage of information that is not available to all the players. I'd rather beat them at card counting, than cheat them with sneaking peeks at dealers cards.
Sorry, for responding late to this thread. I have really been racking up the hours in the casino of late and guess I somehow missed this thread, but I do want to comment on it.
My own feelings are similar to that of JSTAT. I am not going to say that hole-carding is cheating, but it sure as heck comes right up to the line, if not crosses it. You are getting information, that by design of the game, you are not supposed to have. Now, if you happen upon a sloppy dealer here and there and get this info, that is one thing, but those that do things and employ techniques to try to get this info, well that's something else in my book. I don't judge people. People do what they are comfortable with. I have players that I network with that take advantage of quite a bit of hole-card opportunities. I have no sympathy for the casino industry, who I believe has become more of a predatory based industry than an entertainment type industry that it was meant to be. But, hole-carding is not for me. I did some hole-carding several years ago for a brief period and I just don't care for winning that way. I like playing the game by the exact rules that the game was intended to be played with only the information that I should have and being able to win at this game, just by employing a little bit of thinking. I've been told that my thinking is a throw back and maybe I myself am a throwback, as there just aren't that many solo type counters willing to play the game for the small advantage that they get.
Quote: teliotThere are so many games that can beaten, why focus on the most difficult game to beat with the smallest edge? Card counting blackjack is yesterday's news. If you really want to do something for players, Frank, why not focus on the myriad opportunities that offer a much higher and proven player edge and require a smaller bankroll? I ask this because I wonder at the motivation for pushing card counting in this era of proprietary games and side bets. Card counting, the single method that casinos know how to protect better than any other game. Why place this baggage on players by holding them to antiquated methods instead of enlightening them to modern methods? Why don't you educate yourself on these methods and give them a try yourself? Get out there and hole-card Mississippi Stud a bit, Frank, with it's 50% plus player edge, then try pushing card counting. You'll find it hard to take yourself seriously.
As to the point of why players would rather lose than win, I address that point at great length in MY blackjack book, which I will not be pushing here, out of courtesy to Mike and this site.
Best regards,
Eliot
Teliot, I find this post to be confusing, just as I have found your actions in recent years to be confusing. Obviously, you are looked on with scorn from much of the BJ community. When your name comes up, the common word that follow is traitor. Now, as I said, I don't judge people. That's not my place. I also don't begrudge anyone making a living however they chose, so that's not what my comments are about...even if it is working with the 'dark' side. :)
But now that you have switched sides..so to speak, and make your money in game protection, it is just contradictory and plain weird, for you to make a post such as this advising players to start using the very techniques that you are consulting the industry about. It's confusing and just weird.
April 5th, 2013 at 7:16:14 PM
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I don't like blackjack either which is why I never tried to learn counting. I once played with a friend who was a counter... but obviously not a good one.... because when the count was good he made a dramatic big bet and after winning it the floorman came over to him and said "knock it off." they let us keep playing.
blackjack to me would be better if we could raise our bets and try to bluff the dealer into folding. LOL
blackjack to me would be better if we could raise our bets and try to bluff the dealer into folding. LOL
April 5th, 2013 at 7:45:16 PM
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Perhaps they are afraid if they make a mistake, they will inadvertently cost themselves more money than if they were just casual.
I am a robot.
April 5th, 2013 at 7:54:46 PM
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My advice was for Frank. If an author is going to make his living by advising players on advantage play, I would prefer he do it in a way that does not keep them in the dark age. I had a conversation with Anthony Curtis about writing a book, based on the work I publish on my blog, but Anthony wanted it written from the player's point of view, and I wanted to write it for the industry. "The Book" is waiting to be re-written for the common gambler. Hopefully Frank will take up the mantle. The stuff that the top APs do should be available to the common man, just as card counting blackjack was made available in the 1960s. And you can be sure, just like blackjack card counting, that if this information is easily available to the public, a lot of weak players will crash and burn while casinos will become better educated and game protection will improve.Quote: kewljBut now that you have switched sides..so to speak, and make your money in game protection, it is just contradictory and plain weird, for you to make a post such as this advising players to start using the very techniques that you are consulting the industry about.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
April 5th, 2013 at 8:37:25 PM
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Counting is an art & a science. The fastest mathematically smartest person may not be able to make a dime counting. Most guys that are super smart stick out like a sore thumb then get backed off an kicked out. Counting is more about putting on an act and realizing when to move on before you get to much heat. I spend most of my time secretly watching the pit boss to see if hes watching me. Its always upsetting once he gets on the pit phone after I see him pretend not to be watching me. Just then its about time to move on. The fun part may just be the cat an mouse game getting away with jumping up your bet during a huge count this is anything but boring.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
