Free Bet Blackjack
In either event, I think the dealer decision on Soft 17 is immaterial to the average BJ player, of course, this Forum does not represent the average BJ player ;-)
I can't believe that players who never mastered basic strategy in years of play have suddenly gotten "math religion" for Free Bet. I would agree that "always split, always double" has been picked up, but I haven't seen the finer points of strategy adjustment used. The weeping over "incorrect play" causing a "fouled shoes" has not abated.Quote: Paradigm... it appears most players are figuring out how to play very close to optimally.
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyI can't believe that players who never mastered basic strategy in years of play have suddenly gotten "math religion" for Free Bet. I would agree that "always split, always double" has been picked up, but I haven't seen the finer points of strategy adjustment used. The weeping over "incorrect play" causing a "fouled shoes" has not abated.
A new game or twist gives a new reason for examination or review - and where math-religion can come alive.
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyI can't believe that players who never mastered basic strategy in years of play have suddenly gotten "math religion" for Free Bet. I would agree that "always split, always double" has been picked up, but I haven't seen the finer points of strategy adjustment used. The weeping over "incorrect play" causing a "fouled shoes" has not abated.
BCS, you are probably correct. What I meant to say is players aren't making any more incremental mistakes than they are playing regular BJ and have figured out how to capture most of the HE implemented by the Push 22 rule by taking all of their free opportunities. If there aren't incremental mistakes being made, and the HE is set at 0.5%, than the Free Bet game can't be expected to hold much more than regular BJ.
Unless the drop is way up, a property isn't going to pay for the same hold as regular BJ. Incrementally the game has to do better from a drop or hold perspective to stay on the floor and get them to pay for it.
If you have a 1% game vs. their regular 0.6% BJ game and players play Free Bet just as much as regular BJ, at similar error rates, then the property would want to keep Free Bet vs putting in regular BJ. Going with the 1% version should get Free Bet to perform incrementally better than regular BJ and I don't think that version is particularly offensive to players if they haven't seen previous versions of the game.
Quote: SwitchThe above rules are what they are running at Mohegan Sun and the house edge works out at 0.5%. If they take off 'Surrender' or don't allow free split on 4's then this would take the house edge to 0.73% and 0.78% respectively.
Probably preaching to the choir here, but the house edge is only the starting point. If that's all the house had to survive on, all table games would disappear. You need player mistakes and luckily they occur at a profitable rate. LOL
But even ploppies know that for everything the house gives them in a new version of Blackjack, it takes something else away. The trick is to make them accept the tradeoff.
In a black mood, so I will bail out. But now before saying that 6 to 5 continues it's epic conquests. And don't think all ploppies are DUMB !
It's not the 6 that attracts them. It's the 5 as in $5. Maybe in 30 to 25 games at Venetian it's the 25 that attracts them.
Your logic is impeccable, Paradigm: from the perspective casino business. I would be on board with all your recommendations if I were working for a casino. However, as a player who regards the HE is as the definitive measure, I would look for a standard play table instead of submitting to the rule changes you suggest. So objectively, I would make the changes you suggest and kiss my ass goodbye.Quote: Paradigm... What I meant to say is players aren't making any more incremental mistakes than they are playing regular BJ and have figured out how to capture most of the HE implemented by the Push 22 rule by taking all of their free opportunities. If there aren't incremental mistakes being made, and the HE is set at 0.5%, than the Free Bet game can't be expected to hold much more than regular BJ.
Unless the drop is way up, a property isn't going to pay for the same hold as regular BJ. Incrementally the game has to do better from a drop or hold perspective to stay on the floor and get them to pay for it.
If you have a 1% game vs. their regular 0.6% BJ game and players play Free Bet just as much as regular BJ, at similar error rates, then the property would want to keep Free Bet vs putting in regular BJ. Going with the 1% version should get Free Bet to perform incrementally better than regular BJ and I don't think that version is particularly offensive to players if they haven't seen previous versions of the game.
You along with many posters on the Forum, make correct mathematical decisions when gambling. But I would suggest that you represent the top 5% of casino players when it comes to optimal play.
New table games are rarely designed for this group of players.
My opinion is that less than 1in 100 table games that make it to a casino floor succeed. TABLE GAME INVENTORS HAVE BALLS BIGGER THAN KING KONG.
P.S. Don't say it, Babe darlin'
another player mentioned they'd possibly offer it during "slow times"...i can't verify if there's any truth to that rumor. seems nonsensical to me...
Too bad. It was an interesting variation that wasn't horribly worse than the regular game, and was a lot of fun. And, I have a complimentary token from Switch.
A rough start, but Free Bet was launched. After all the hurdles were cleared, after all the hard work, IT WAS DONE! Now, after a few months of “crunching the numbers,” it seems management has decided the game is not what they hoped for. Huh? If the problem is profitability, the game can be tweaked to boost that. Probably, as Paradigm and switch have suggested, without having any noticeable effect on the game’s popularity. Players were too lucky? You’ve got to be kidding! If a casino can’t trust the mathematics behind what they are doing they really need to close the place. Seriously. Finally, the biggest mystery: why did they shut down a game that was well received by the players? Isn’t the whole point of offering a new game to GET PLAYERS TO SIT DOWN AND PLAY, WHICH WAS HAPPENING BIG TIME. Instead they are closing down other games because they don’t attract enough players. What is wrong with this picture? PLUS, they had an offering to differentiate themselves from a nearby competitor *cough*.
Has Mohegan Sun lost their ability to effectively manage a casino? If you can’t get the gaming right, you might as well convert the place into a shopping mall. Oh wait, I think they may be doing that…
Quote: kitties666i chatted up a number of players & dealers about this. players like the game but the dealers seem to unanimously hate dealing it.
Speaking from my experience, The single table we have ( due to being a small casino)generally does quite well, with some players specifically asking to play it.
As for dealing it, I find it fairly simple compared to some things, and most dealers in our place have no problem with it. I guess it depends on the place.
But I do agree that nothing kills a game faster than dealer dislike or even apathy.
Quote: kitties666my only experience playing free bet @ mohegan was marred by very bitter dealers. they clearly HATED it. this one young fatty who was very proficient at dealing the game really ruined it with the negative commentary. makes me not feel as bad that many of their jobs are under constant threat in our crappy economy.
That sucks, both for you as a customer, and for the games creator from an installs point of view. I dont know how much difference it would make but maybe write to the management explaining what happened and telling them about your poor experience, and all WoVers should ask for Free Bet BJ whenever they go to Mohegan.
One of the dealers constantly complains about people doing 'crazy' things like doubling 8v10, or splitting 66v9, which gets kind of annoying though.
Could you please elaborate why you usually jump on Freebet? I am sure besides Geoff Hall, many game designers wish to know what makes a BJ player tick with such enthusiasm? Is it the fun, the house edge, the winning, or the feeling the bet is free and you can beat the house?Quote: VenthusI usually jump on the Freebet table first thing in the morning if I stay the night at Pala (SoCal). (Last time I did that, 2 more people swooped in who were also waiting, and one more sat down, not knowing it was Freebet, but because it was the only table that had more than one person.)
One of the dealers constantly complains about people doing 'crazy' things like doubling 8v10, or splitting 66v9, which gets kind of annoying though.
Quote: UCivanCould you please elaborate why you usually jump on Freebet? I am sure besides Geoff Hall, many game designers wish to know what makes a BJ player tick with such enthusiasm? Is it the fun, the house edge, the winning, or the feeling the bet is free and you can beat the house?
I have yet to actually play this game in a casino, but for me, it's the idea that (with correct play) you get similar odds to Blackjack with less variance.
Although it's a higher HE, I like it because you are only (usually) risking your initial bet and can't get wiped out from the split double-double etc. losing to the dealer making 21 from a 6! Also I like the fun of making ludicrous plays (that are correct in FB) and treat the split/double as a free chance for long-shot money - it's also the great feeling when some of the crazy doubles actually win.Quote: UCivanCould you please elaborate why you usually jump on Freebet?...
When playing you can sometimes encourage ploppies to always split/double by saying advising them to "take all the free money" (which consciously you also know is correct and means they're nearer correct strategy).
Quote: UCivanCould you please elaborate why you usually jump on Freebet? I am sure besides Geoff Hall, many game designers wish to know what makes a BJ player tick with such enthusiasm? Is it the fun, the house edge, the winning, or the feeling the bet is free and you can beat the house?
Great question UCivan and I appreciate those that have taken the time to respond to it.
Personally, when I thought about developing the game, I considered what players do not like about the current regular game. One thing is sitting down, getting a split, re-split and double, having 4 bets out there and losing the lot. Free Bet sort of came from that as a way to eliminate the player losing multiple bets while still having the chance to win multiple pay-outs.
Quick Update : Free Bet should be available on the MyVegas platform around the middle of August, for those of you who are interested.
Blackjack has a very slim house edge; there are limited rooms to play with. Freebet and Switch are two great innovations. I like the "less variance" aspect. On the other hand, this is not too intuitive for a game designer to attempt to tackle.Quote: DeucekiesI have yet to actually play this game in a casino, but for me, it's the idea that (with correct play) you get similar odds to Blackjack with less variance.
I break up my bankroll into total, trip, and table, with table usually being 10 or 20 units. As a result, a nasty set of splits and doubles can wipe me out. Freebet gives me a longer lifespan without causing much more frustration. (And I tend to have pretty decent luck with it-- last time I was playing two hands on it, alone, and finished up about 30 units in 15 hands.)
And I personally find it fun: 66vT gives a general doomed feeling while, here, you get a "free" second (admittedly, often just as bad) chance.
There's a few dealers that consistently let you split TT for free too.
I don't play Freebet. Is this the normal rule? Your liking Freebet is because of dealers' generosity? Bravo, nothing wrong with it. :-))) I play UTH at THE D all the time, one dancer/dealer always asks player if he/she wins/loses. I love that girl.Quote: VenthusThere's a few dealers that consistently let you split TT for free too.
Quote: UCivanI don't play Freebet. Is this the normal rule? Your liking Freebet is because of dealers' generosity? Bravo, nothing wrong with it. :-))) I play UTH at THE D all the time, one dancer/dealer always asks player if he/she wins/loses. I love that girl.
TT is not supposed to be a free split in FBBJ. Allowing it decreases house edge by 0.24%.
Quote: UCivanI don't play Freebet. Is this the normal rule? Your liking Freebet is because of dealers' generosity? Bravo, nothing wrong with it. :-))) I play UTH at THE D all the time, one dancer/dealer always asks player if he/she wins/loses. I love that girl.
Not at all usual!
If I was REALLY exploiting generosity, I'd be over at Mandalay. I was having a downright cursed run over there and the only thing keeping me afloat was that I was getting paid on 22s (which was happening FAR more than statistically likely). On multiple hands, I had 2-3 free bets out and a 22 pops out: "Damn it!" "Hey, that's 22, bust!" "...Oh right. ...Can I break that down into reds and greens?"
Did you get or do you expect any feedback from a casino where one of your games is installed as to its success or continued existence? Did you know that Freebet was on its way out at Mohegan, and (if it's appropriate for you to tell us...) do they generally tell you of its "success" (defined, I guess, as to how much it improves their take over a regular game)?
Are the circumstances of Freebet at Mohegan, at casinos in general, or of new games of any kind, generally published, or is all of this trade secret stuff that you don't publicize? I'd be interested in reading about how it went down at Mohegan (figuratively and literally), if you'd want to share any of it, but of course if that's not how it's done, then forgive my asking.
I really liked the game, and every player I talked to about it liked it too, which of course might be exactly why it's not there anymore.
Quote: rhodyBobSwitch:
Did you get or do you expect any feedback from a casino where one of your games is installed as to its success or continued existence? Did you know that Freebet was on its way out at Mohegan, and (if it's appropriate for you to tell us...) do they generally tell you of its "success" (defined, I guess, as to how much it improves their take over a regular game)?
Are the circumstances of Freebet at Mohegan, at casinos in general, or of new games of any kind, generally published, or is all of this trade secret stuff that you don't publicize? I'd be interested in reading about how it went down at Mohegan (figuratively and literally), if you'd want to share any of it, but of course if that's not how it's done, then forgive my asking.
I really liked the game, and every player I talked to about it liked it too, which of course might be exactly why it's not there anymore.
Hi rhodyBob,
Yes, I do generally get feedback from a game especially if it is performing very well or not up to par.
I did know about Mohegan Sun although I did not install the game there myself so I had no direct contact with the casino.
As far as I'm aware, the game did not hold as well as they wanted. However, they did offer a game which was 'Stand Soft 17' and also allowed 'Surrender', which brought the house edge down to just under 0.5%, which is too low IMO, particularly as the volatility is reduced and, more importantly, the basic strategy is made easier for doubling and splitting decisions.
At the end of the day I am not looking to take on the game of Blackjack, I am trying to develop a pleasant alternative to the regular game. When an operator says "It's only dropping 3/4 of our Blackjack games" then I personally take that as a success. The idea is that variations tend to hold higher so that compensates for the slightly lower 'drop' in general. I believe that at Mohegan Sun the hold % was lower than the regular Blackjack game and it was frustrating to see the game removed as something could have been done to rectify the situation (remove 'Surrender') and, from what I heard, the game proved popular with players.
I think that if enough players comment on the removal to the casino and, with any luck, Foxwoods decide to give the game a chance, then it may persuade Mohegan Sun to try the game out again in the future.
Overall, to date, Free Bet has had around 60 tables installed and there have been just 4 removals that I know of. In todays gaming world that install/removal ratio is extremely impressive.
Quote: SwitchOverall, to date, Free Bet has had around 60 tables installed and there have been just 4 removals that I know of. In todays gaming world that install/removal ratio is extremely impressive.
And "extremely impressive" is a modest description......this success rate is PHENOMENAL!!!!
Quote: ParadigmAnd "extremely impressive" is a modest description......this success rate is PHENOMENAL!!!!
I will second that. An expert once told me that out of 100 games that make it to a casino floor, less than 1 in a 100 survive !
Free Double on 2-Card totals of 9-11
Free Splits on all pairs except 10 value cards
Free Splits up to 4 hands except on Aces to Free Split Aces only to two hands
Dealer Hits Soft 17
Late Surrender not allowed
I calculate this as the 1.01% HE version of Free Bet that I think everyone should be spreading, but wanted to confirm.
Quote: VenthusOver at Pala, about two months ago, the floor manager let a player free split a pair of sixes, then surrendered her real money hand. (To deal with knowing the value of her main bet, they immediately paid back the surrender and replaced the value on the table with chips from the rack.)
I've never seen a blackjack game that allows surrender after split before.
Quote: ParadigmSwitch, I believe that WoO's page on Free Bet is not completely accurate when it comes to rule variations, so I wanted to check on HE for the following set of rules for Free Bet:
Free Double on 2-Card totals of 9-11
Free Splits on all pairs except 10 value cards
Free Splits up to 4 hands except on Aces to Free Split Aces only to two hands
Dealer Hits Soft 17
Late Surrender not allowed
I calculate this as the 1.01% HE version of Free Bet that I think everyone should be spreading, but wanted to confirm.
Hi Michael, yes, the rules you mentioned give a house edge of 1.01% provided the player is allowed to re-split Aces (which is the most common form in Vegas). If not then this takes the house edge up to 1.09%. You can add 0.01% for using 6 decks rather than 8 decks (I've quoted 8 deck figures which are fractionally lower for this game).
Hope this helps!
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI've never seen a blackjack game that allows surrender after split before.
They actually held the game up for five minutes or so to try and find somebody who knew the complete rules/the formal documentation. They failed (probably wasn't worth the trouble for somebody playing a 20$ hand) and the floor manager let it through.
Having said that, I would've given it a big 'no', but why ruin it for somebody else, especially when I might find it advantageous to do that later.
Quote: IbeatyouracesFree Bet has been installed at MGM Detroit.
BUT IS THERE A SIDE BET?!?!?!? "That's where the money is at!"
Quote: ams288BUT IS THERE A SIDE BET?!?!?!? "That's where the money is at!"
hahahahaha. This gave me a really good laugh. Thanks for that. Every time I spot a flasher at 3 card poker I love when the dealer says, "You don't bet the pair plus?? That's where the money's at!!!"
Quote: strictlyAPim so lucky, I played free bet and the dealer pushed the free bet token close to me - so it ended up in my pocket woooo hoooo- im taking all offers
Nice. I always try to acquire "ON" lammers from craps tables. I always have my come bet odds turned on for the come-out, and usually the dealers remove the button after the come-out roll. Sometimes they forget though, and include it in my payout if the number hits. Nice little souvenir :).
Great job on this game! I hope you make boatloads of money on it. This game should be in every casino!
I think it was Terapined who was here a few weeks ago. He's right, this place is dead. The room is OK. Not as nice as we get at the Nugget. But it isn't bad. Worth what I paid probably. Since I've been playing green the last two days I hope it ends up being comped. It better be or we won't be coming back here.
