Free Bet Blackjack

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May 12th, 2013 at 2:50:21 PM permalink

Thanks for the feedback wrongway and I've only just seen your post otherwise I would have replied sooner.

You are correct in that The Golden Nugget and Mirage pay 3/2 while Casino Royale pays 6/5. The game will be heading into The Venetian and Palazzo in June and they will be 3/2 games.

If the game eventually heads into more casinos (and both 6/5 & 3/2 versions are used) then I agree that it would be a good idea to show the rules used in the various casinos.

FWIW Mirage and Golden Nugget also offer 'Surrender' whereas Casino Royale does not.

wrongway

wrongway

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May 12th, 2013 at 3:59:15 PM permalink

It's great to see it going into some more places. We will be going back out to Vegas in July and August. We look forward to checking it out in the new places.

Switch

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May 12th, 2013 at 4:36:08 PM permalink

Thanks wrongway - I'll still be in Vegas early July so look out for me at the Free Bet table, probably at The Nugget or The Venetian.

If you manage to find me then I'll give you a gold 'Free Bet' coin as a memento :-)

Buzzard

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May 12th, 2013 at 4:43:36 PM permalink

I will be going to Blackhawk Wednesday after finals. Will see if MardiGras still has Switch. Will report on table games in general and side bets. Bust It Bonus was all over the place last year!

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

ams288

ams288

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May 13th, 2013 at 6:52:30 AM permalink

I played it at The Mirage in March. I really enjoyed it. The table was pretty much empty while I was playing so I didn't play as long as I would have liked cause I hate empty tables, but I had fun.

I love the BJ variation games (BJ Switch is my usual Vegas go-to game, I play it all up and down the strip). This one feels less "carny-ish" with the BJ's paying 3-2 compared to even money in BJ Switch.

I'll be back to Vegas in two weeks and I'm gonna give it another go at The Mirage.

Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

Switch

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May 13th, 2013 at 8:18:47 AM permalink

Thanks for the feedback ams288. I hope that The Mirage now have player information cards on the game as I believe that it helps to gain player awareness on new games.

Good luck in 2 weeks and if you're there after the 30th then look out for me at the tables.

UCivan

UCivan

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May 13th, 2013 at 8:25:31 AM permalink

Quote: Switch
Thanks for the feedback ams288. I hope that The Mirage now have player information cards on the game as I believe that it helps to gain player awareness on new games.

Couldn't you offer them some free rack cards to put on the table?

Switch

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May 13th, 2013 at 9:42:34 AM permalink

Quote: UCivan
Couldn't you offer them some free rack cards to put on the table?

Yes, absolutely ! I gave them free rack cards but, unfortunately, they don't always display them on the table.

Last time I was there, they were planning on printing their own rack cards so I will be interested to see if they have done that when I return at the end of the month.

ams288

ams288

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May 13th, 2013 at 10:29:15 AM permalink

When I was there in March I think they did have the info cards on the table. Or maybe I'm confusing it with Casino Royale. I know I read it somewhere. The dealers weren't very helpful, not that I needed any help, but there was a foreign couple who didn't know what they were doing at all playing next to me for a bit. Then they lost all their chips and I was left alone for the rest of my session.

Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

JimRockford

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May 13th, 2013 at 11:46:48 AM permalink

Quote: ams288
When I was there in March I think they did have the info cards on the table. Or maybe I'm confusing it with Casino Royale. I know I read it somewhere. The dealers weren't very helpful, not that I needed any help, but there was a foreign couple who didn't know what they were doing at all playing next to me for a bit. Then they lost all their chips and I was left alone for the rest of my session.

Are the rules at the Mirage as described on the Wizard's page (shown below), or have they been tweaked? I think there was some talk of not allowing 4s to be split.

6 decks
Dealer hits soft 17's
Blackjacks pay 3 to 2
Double after split allowed
Double on two cards only
Re-split pairs up to four hands, including aces
Split aces receive one card only
Late surrender allowed
"Free Doubles" on hard totals of 9, 10, or 11 with any number of cards.
"Free Splits" on all pairs except 10's.
Dealer 22 is a push

"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." -- Isaac Newton

Buzzard

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May 13th, 2013 at 11:59:36 AM permalink

Last year I checked out SWITCH in Blackhawk. In 4 different casinos. 1 had rack cards prominently displayed. 1 got me a rack card
from a stand drawer in the pit. 2 had no rack cards or a set of rules even. Were willing to explain the game to me though. Per gaming the casino MUST have a set of rules available for the players.

A dealer I went to dealer's school with told me the Mardi Gras kept a set of rules in the safe? I was tempted to call gaming but out of respect for SWITCH, I did not. Hopefully going to Blackhawk this Wednesday and see if Switch is still available.

I always like to get a rack card whenever I see a new game, to read then and later, as well as show to other people. I think the return on rack cards is very profitable indeed. If only they are displayed.

Perhaps Dan can give his opinion on this matter as both a dealer and now working for the darkside. LOL

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

Paigowdan

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May 13th, 2013 at 12:03:50 PM permalink

Quote: Buzzard
I always like to get a rack card whenever I see a new game, to read then and later, as well as show to other people. I think the return on rack cards is very profitable indeed. If only they are displayed.

Perhaps Dan can give his opinion on this matter as both a dealer and now working for the darkside. LOL

If I'm at a casino where I see an interesting new game, I take a rack card, or ask for a rack card, sure. If they have it, I read it. If they don't, they can explain the game to me.

And of course I always check www.wizardofOdds.com.

There you go.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Buzzard

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May 13th, 2013 at 12:14:59 PM permalink

Was curious if dealers have any objection to card rack on the table and how suppliers of game feel about importance of rack cards.
SHFL Entertainment distributes and does the training for SWITCH in Colorado.

I know SHFL provided more than enough rack cards, but they can not change the mindset of most casino management. I doubt I will find SWITCH on this visit. A great reason for it's demise is the refusal of management to lower the limits,
on weekends especially. Unreasonable to expect people to sit down at a new game, be required to bet $20 in total as you must play 2
hand to switch, instead of $10 shoe or double-deck games.

I ain't an expert,but I do know Blackhawk players. $20 a pop to play a new game. NO WAY

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

Switch

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May 13th, 2013 at 12:15:08 PM permalink

Quote: JimRockford
Are the rules at the Mirage as described on the Wizard's page (shown below), or have they been tweaked? I think there was some talk of not allowing 4s to be split.

6 decks
Dealer hits soft 17's
Blackjacks pay 3 to 2
Double after split allowed
Double on two cards only
Re-split pairs up to four hands, including aces
Split aces receive one card only
Late surrender allowed
"Free Doubles" on hard totals of 9, 10, or 11 with any number of cards.
"Free Splits" on all pairs except 10's.
Dealer 22 is a push

Jim, as far as I'm aware, these are the rules that are being used at The Mirage.

The not allowing 4's to be split was used in a variation that allowed multi-card doubles on 9,10 & 11.

Switch

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May 13th, 2013 at 12:19:06 PM permalink

Quote: Buzzard
Was curious if dealers have any objection to card rack on the table and how suppliers of game feel about importance of rack cards.
SHFL Entertainment distributes and does the training for SWITCH in Colorado.

Personally I think that the rack cards are extremely important on a new game. If the game is simple and appealing then a rack card can highlight this very quickly.

I look forward to your Colorado report Buzz although I'm not expecting good news from what you've already stated.

UCivan

UCivan

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May 13th, 2013 at 12:19:15 PM permalink

Quote: Buzzard
I know SHFL provided more than enough rack cards, but they can not change the mindset of most casino management. I doubt I will find SWITCH on this visit. A great reason for it's demise is the refusal of management to lower the limits,
on weekends especially. Unreasonable to expect people to sit down at a new game, be required to bet $20 in total as you must play 2
hand to switch, instead of $10 shoe or double-deck games.

I believe many casinos BUY the rack cards, even if the casino names are not shown on them.

Buzzard

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May 13th, 2013 at 12:22:07 PM permalink

Maybe Dan or Roger can enlighten us. I would think the game distributor would gladly provide the rack card free.
Provided they felt confident the cards would be displayed and not trashcanned ? Or a nomimal fee at most!

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

Buzzard

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May 13th, 2013 at 12:24:33 PM permalink

Only gonna be there a day or two, but will hit every casino there and Central city, then check out Isle, Lodge, and Ameristar.

Last figures I saw Ameristar had 38% of the market. So am confident the three I named have 60%+.

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

JimRockford

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May 13th, 2013 at 12:37:06 PM permalink

6 decks
Dealer hits soft 17's
Blackjacks pay 3 to 2
Double after split allowed
Double on two cards only
Re-split pairs up to four hands, including aces
Split aces receive one card only
Late surrender allowed
"Free Doubles" on hard totals of 9, 10, or 11 with any number of cards.
"Free Splits" on all pairs except 10's.
Dealer 22 is a push

Quote: Switch
Jim, as far as I'm aware, these are the rules that are being used at The Mirage.

The not allowing 4's to be split was used in a variation that allowed multi-card doubles on 9,10 & 11.

Thanks Switch,
So the rules above are accurate except Free doubles on 9, 10 and 11 are on two cards only. Does that make the HE about 1.15%?

"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." -- Isaac Newton

Paigowdan

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May 13th, 2013 at 12:37:29 PM permalink

Quote: Buzzard
Maybe Dan or Roger can enlighten us. I would think the game distributor would gladly provide the rack card free.
Provided they felt confident the cards would be displayed and not trashcanned ? Or a nomimal fee at most!

Yes we do indeed. We produce and provide them by the thousands, and hope they are displayed and used. Rack cards are important for new games, as they help those who are curious about the game (likely customer) become real customers.

For existing games with momentum, the need for rack cards diminishes. When games are known and popular, common player knowledge and usage is the rack card. Still provide them, though.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Buzzard

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May 13th, 2013 at 12:41:05 PM permalink

Thanks Dan. I will check our Galaxy games also. Must be nice for side bets like BUST BONUS, with payouts printed on the felt.

But suspect some dealers might want to change career fields after saying Bust bonus anybody after every hand UGH!

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

Paigowdan

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May 13th, 2013 at 1:05:28 PM permalink

I've come to like felt-based pay tables and short rule blurbs.

Because casino operators can be spotty in supporting a new game, having answers on the felt invite you to sit down and try the game. And it helps dealers carry out correct payouts. I don't know how many times I've seen dealers refer to the felt pay tables out of need.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Switch

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May 13th, 2013 at 1:18:48 PM permalink

Quote: JimRockford

Thanks Switch,
So the rules above are accurate except Free doubles on 9, 10 and 11 are on two cards only. Does that make the HE about 1.15%?

Jim, with Surrender the house edge on those rules is 0.71%.

JimRockford

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May 13th, 2013 at 1:47:24 PM permalink

Quote: Switch
Jim, with Surrender the house edge on those rules is 0.71%.

Thanks,

I obviously misinterpreted something, but here is where I got 1.15%.

Wizard of Odds site says that the game described in the card below is 0.79%. This is with free double on 9, 10 and 11 with any number of cards but no splitting 4s.

I then used the adjustments for rules variations of:

free split on 4s: .24% for the player
free double on only two cards: .60% for the house

0.79 - 0.24 +0.60 = 1.15%

"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." -- Isaac Newton

Switch

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May 13th, 2013 at 2:49:34 PM permalink

Hi Jim, I agree that it does get very confusing and I got the versions mixed up and gave you the ENHC figure (Stand S17) of 0.71%.

So, for the rules that you stated (2 card doubles + split 4's) then the house edge is 0.79% for hit soft 17 (surrender allowed)

The house edge in the version on the rack card is 0.63% (0.42% with surrender)

I hope this helps.

JimRockford

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May 13th, 2013 at 3:23:16 PM permalink

Quote: Switch
Hi Jim, I agree that it does get very confusing and I got the versions mixed up and gave you the ENHC figure (Stand S17) of 0.71%.

So, for the rules that you stated (2 card doubles + split 4's) then the house edge is 0.79% for hit soft 17 (surrender allowed)

The house edge in the version on the rack card is 0.63% (0.42% with surrender)

I hope this helps.

Thanks Geoff, I am looking forward to playing this game in June. The HE penalty is not bad for extra juice if free doubles and splits.

"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." -- Isaac Newton

JimRockford

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May 14th, 2013 at 10:38:57 AM permalink

The WoO strategy assumes free double on any number of cards. I believe it works for free double on two cards but you have to know what to do on the soft hands when the strategy says to double, but you have thee or more cards. The real money strategy seems obvious, but soft 18 in the free hand strategy is not clear. Any help?

"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." -- Isaac Newton

Paradigm

Paradigm

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May 16th, 2013 at 5:05:36 AM permalink

Free bet was doing well when I checked in on it at Casino Caribbean (Kirkland, WA). It was a Monday night and with only 3 of 6 BJ tables open, Free Bet was one of the open tables and had 3 players at it during the hour I was there. I believe it has been at the property since last Oct/Nov, so clearly maintaining a following.

Switch

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May 16th, 2013 at 5:48:54 AM permalink

Jim, if you have 'soft 18' with 3 or more cards (on your Free Play hand) then you would 'Hit' against all dealer up-cards except a 7.

Hunterhill

Hunterhill

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May 16th, 2013 at 6:29:53 AM permalink

Quote: Switch
Jim, if you have 'soft 18' with 3 or more cards (on your Free Play hand) then you would 'Hit' against all dealer up-cards except a 7.

Can you explain this Geoff? Why would you hit ?

Happy days are here again

Switch

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May 16th, 2013 at 6:40:40 AM permalink

Quote: Hunterhill
Can you explain this Geoff? Why would you hit ?

It's down to the fact that if you 'push' with a Free Bet then you don't end up with anything so you have to win the hand to actually get paid.

'Soft 18' verses a dealer 8 makes sense to me as a 'push' is no good to the player so a 'hit' is needed.

I don't know the exact math' but I guess that 'soft 18' gives you more overall wins if you hit verses a 2-6 rather than stand. I'm sure that it increases the losses as well but overall you will get paid out more often on your 'Free Bet'.

For example, if you have 'soft 18' verses a dealer 8 and you 'stand' then you may:-

Win 20%
Push 50%
Lose 30%
(I've totally guessed these numbers but I'm hoping it will clarify my reasoning :-) ).

If you 'Hit' then you may:-

Win 30%
Push 20%
Lose 50%

For the 'Free Bet' then the Win% is your measure of return. So, although you lose more hands by hitting, you actually make more money on the 'Free Bet' as your win rate increases.

Hope this helps.

Hunterhill

Hunterhill

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May 16th, 2013 at 7:21:22 AM permalink

Thanks,that makes sense.

Happy days are here again

tringlomane

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May 17th, 2013 at 1:38:41 AM permalink

Finally got to play this game at Mirage this past weekend! It was about 2:30am in my last night in Vegas, and I was surprised the table was still open. Dealer was knowledgeable and would help explain the game if people that were confused walked by and asked. He couldn't convince everyone to play though. :( I ran a little hot, and got about 8 free doubles in maybe 15 minutes. I only won about half of them, but they helped me quit $40 (4 units) ahead as he failed to get a single 22. Once I was about ready to leave some drunk Australian chicks played for a bit. If I was single, I definitely would have kept playing a bit longer...lol Also when I briefly stopped in at Casino Royale during my trip, the game also looked quite busy.

I'll definitely try to make time again to play this next trip! It's a very good game Geoff!

Switch

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May 17th, 2013 at 6:08:19 AM permalink

Thanks for the report tringlomane and I'm really pleased to hear about the dealer at The Mirage as that's an integral part to helping anew game gain exposure.

The lack of a dealer 22 would have greatly helped your win rate as you were basically playing a game with free splits and doubles. The 4 unit win you had shows the difference as you stated that you had about 8 doubles and won half of them. In the regular game, your losing 4 doubles would have had you leaving the table level rather than being up 4 units.

Casino Royale manage to jam their tables despite being a 6/5 version.

AcesAndEights

AcesAndEights

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May 17th, 2013 at 9:45:24 AM permalink

Quote: Switch
Casino Royale manage to jam their tables despite being a 6/5 version.

Doesn't surprise me given their average clientele.

I may need to try out Free Bet on my next trip (and Switch for that matter), but I don't know the correct BS for either. I suppose I could just print out the charts from WoV or Discount Gambling.

"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer

tringlomane

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May 17th, 2013 at 5:53:48 PM permalink

Quote: AcesAndEights
I suppose I could just print out the charts from WoV or Discount Gambling.

Yeah, that's what I did and I had it on the table. It was no problem, and helped me hit a 13 vs. a 2 at one point...haha But note some of the recent posts in this thread for some adjustments. The game got rid of doubling on more than two cards at Mirage and Casino Royale (not sure about GN), but the WOO strategy isn't updated for that. So if you have a soft 18 with 3 or more cards you should hit if it is your free hand except vs. a dealer 7. If that's your real money hand, then you would stand for 7 or less as normal. You have to be more aggressive with a free hand since a push is just as bad as a loss.

And Geoff, did the math report from Stephen tell you the Standard Deviation of the Golden Nugget game (and/or other versions)? I would be interested to know the change in comparison to regular blackjack.

Switch

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May 17th, 2013 at 6:24:00 PM permalink

Quote: tringlomane
... ... ... The game got rid of doubling on any two cards at Mirage and Casino Royale (not sure about GN), but the WOO strategy isn't updated for that. So if you have a soft 18 with 3 or more cards you should hit if it is your free hand except vs. a dealer 7. ... ... ...

And Geoff, did the math report from Stephen tell you the Standard Deviation of the Golden Nugget game (and/or other versions)? I would be interested to know the change in comparison to regular blackjack.

tringlomane, is that a typo'? Did you mean not allow 'doubling on more than 2 cards' or are you saying that The Mirage won't allow you to double (with your own chips) on 2-card soft totals?

I didn't get a figure for the Standard Deviation of the game. My guess is that it would be lower as you can generally only lose 1 bet at a time. I'll see if I can get hold of the figure when I'm in Vegas next month.

tringlomane

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May 17th, 2013 at 7:20:46 PM permalink

Oops...I meant you can only double on your first two cards as in most games of blackjack. Doubling with 3 or more cards is not allowed. Fixed that post.

Switch

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May 17th, 2013 at 7:30:49 PM permalink

That's a relief - you got me worried for a while :-)

The GN use the same rules as The Mirage and that will be the standard version that will be installed in Nevada.

RogerKint

RogerKint

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July 20th, 2013 at 4:01:26 PM permalink

The game has migrated across the street into Binions and there's now two tables at GN. There seems to always be about 3 people or more playing at the Binions location. It's the ONLY game in Binions that pays 3:2 for naturals (well, besides "Burn 20" but no one plays that). I tried to use my promo chips at Free Bet but was denied by the pit boss.

100% risk of ruin

JimRockford

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July 20th, 2013 at 4:53:00 PM permalink

I enjoyed playing freebet at the Mirage a few weeks ago. The day I arrived I was very disappointed to find that the freebet table along with all of the S17 tables were behind temporary plastic curtains for some renovations, but they were back in action the second night I was there. I like the action of the game. You are doubling many more hands than you normally would and it feels like the variance is lower. I only played a couple of hours, but there were several dealer mistakes on a dealer hand of 22. One was paid as if it busted. One hand was paid but the mistake was caught before the next hand and the payment was collected from the players. Another hand would have been paid, but an exaggerated groan from a player clued in the dealer. I may have played more, but the regular S17 tables were very good to me for the rest of the trip and that where I spent most of my time.

"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." -- Isaac Newton

SnowCitizen

SnowCitizen

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August 5th, 2013 at 9:30:13 AM permalink

I played Free Bet on Friday August 2nd at the Aria. Unfortunately the Aria does not offer surrender, so I believe their HE is 1.00%. I decided to play anyway since I was already there and the game is a lot of fun. I had bad luck with dealer 22's and minimal split opportunities, but I will definately play on future trips at a different casino. I do feel it is greedy on their part not to offer surrender because the player errors in this game will be huge.

When I played on Friday it was around noon. The table minimum was $15. Most of the time there were only 1-2 players. As I said, anyone reading these forums should avoid the Aria since surrender makes a big difference, larger than regular blackjack.

Hopefully next time I can hit a hard 17 or double a soft 20 and get some dirty looks.

tringlomane

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August 5th, 2013 at 12:39:28 PM permalink

The errors won't be as huge as switch though. :)

Do you know if Mirage still offers surrender? I think they did, but it didn't come up. I'll be back there soon, and I'll try to give it another crack at it.

JimRockford

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August 5th, 2013 at 12:42:15 PM permalink

Quote: tringlomane
The errors won't be as huge as switch though. :)

Do you know if Mirage still offers surrender? I think they did, but it didn't come up. I'll be back there soon, and I'll try to give it another crack at it.

Mirage offered surrender on free Bet when I was there at the end of June.

"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." -- Isaac Newton

Paradigm

Paradigm

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August 10th, 2013 at 11:57:21 AM permalink

Quote: SnowCitizen
I do feel it is greedy on their part not to offer surrender because the player errors in this game will be huge.

I don't think the player errors are that bad in this game if you just take all your Free Bets. Switch can comment, but if you play basic strategy at all time and just take all your Free Bets, I wonder what the HE is for Free Bet under the 0.62% HE set of rules (or is it 0.69%, where you only Free Double on 9-11 any number of cards and can free split everything except $'s & 10's)?

wrongway

wrongway

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August 10th, 2013 at 6:01:15 PM permalink

We just got back and Mirage does offer surrender. It is also our favorite place to play by the way.

ams288

ams288

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August 14th, 2013 at 11:11:11 AM permalink

I didn't even realize surrender was an option. D'oh!

I guess I'm too used to BJ Switch.

NYNY has a table now. Looked like they're using a 6 deck shoe. Sadly, with NYNY only having FOUR remaining 3-2 BJ tables on the main floor, Free Bet is one of the best bets they offer.

Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

Paigowdan