Surrender Confusion
I was playing at a Casino in Calgary Canada where surrender was available, I was the 4th guy to be Dealt cards. My first 2 cards were a 10 and a 6, the dealers card was a 10.
The 3 players before me decided to hit. When it came to my turn I said "Surrender" but the dealer said I must have told him so BEFORE the 3 players in front of me made any play.
Is the dealer correct or did he make a mistake?
Otherwise, the dealer made a mistake.
Basic strategy and was trying surrender
For the 1st time. It's probably because
No one in Calgary ever surrenders so
Dealer must have been confused. Ill make sure
To call the pit boss over next time.
Quote: MakingBookWas Paigowdan the dealer? He may have been pissed off at you for using your brain and making the correct play.
Otherwise, the dealer made a mistake.
No, I would have happily let him surrender, as per game and house rules. And I'm never pissed off if anyone uses their brains, I'm dissapointed when they don't use their brains. I never said otherwise, but you have on my behalf, Makingbook, putting your false words in my mouth. Not appreciated.
People love to speak for me, like I'm not around or something.
So Please get it straight. If it is a part of the game's rules, and it is fine with the house, then it is fine with me. Every time. And accepting the game rules and house rules to avoid any incident is indeed using your brains when in a casino.
I also know how to deal casino games.
Quote: WizardAt this risk of reheating this argument for the 17th time, I would call card counting making especially good use of ones brain at the table.
If you get away with it, then yes, indeed.
If not, it can be a bad trip.
In this regard, it is "additional gambling," which is part of the game, or a side game.
My opinion is that obeying the house rules of the property that you are in, - is the wisest course of action.
If surrender is allowed, then it is offered at your turn to hit or stand, regardless of other players' actions.
What the dealer committed was an error.
Quote: Buzzard" If you get away with it, then yes, indeed. " and what exactly an I getting away with, other than playing good enough to win ?
The point I'm trying to make is that if you get away with somethat that you know is against the house rules, then you can ALWAYS argue "I was just using my brains!!" and it would be hard to falsify, IF gotten away with. This applies to a million situations, regardless of ethics, legality, yada yada yada.
My point is that if you play by the rules, you are never in danger, and never in trouble, and are also using your brains. And if you doing something where:
1. You Have to break the rules to win, which is not an optimal situation, as
2. May indeed get caught and have some trouble.
3. you're in a negative EV sitation, too. especially because the house can tighten the tolerance or enforcement as needed, when rules are not followed.
in this regard, anyone walking into a casino to gamble at anything other than player-banked poker with NO house rake is facing SOME sort of a losing proposition - be it in negative EV, or in seldom positive EV with more of a chance of getting backed off, so that too is a negative EV.
Which is to say, if you're going to use that argument, the only ones "using their brains" are the ones never setting foot in a freaking casino,
---- IF "+EV" and "-EV" are the only reasons and criteria why you step into a casino.
Believe it or not, some people step into a casino, and win less than they lose, and are FINE with that, - but always had fun or "recreation" playing cards or rolling dice, have the shot at it - and they are winners. Hard to see.
For that matter, - I ALWAYS have a "-EV" - negative EV, that is to say - whenever I go to the movies or to a restaurant, AND I always leave with much less money, and I often don't like the film I saw, or meal I had. Totally a negative EV experience in dollars and cents, - screw having fun there, or as a reason to go there!
I guess if I were "using my brains," then I'd then never go to a movie house or restaurant - as they are always negative EV actions, AND I ALWAYS leave with less than I came with 100% of the time - and I don't always like the film or meal.
I so guess the only +EV action is to accept the admission price, and make damn sure you had fun, and didn't get backed off.
Now this makes sense to very few at this place.
Quote: GorThanks for the clarification guys. The dealer also told me that surrender vs ace is not allowed. Is this standard in Las Vegas?
Never heard that one. Maybe the dealer is just clueless....many are.
Quote: MakingBookNever heard that one. Maybe the dealer is just clueless....many are.
True, it's a hard rule to deal or play, as it is rare. When players are uncertain, they can ask and find out here.
Surrender is such a rare option, that its game play mechanisms are generally not known.
Surrender is usually not allowed against a dealer's Ace up card, as you can't surrender against a possible dealer's immediate blackjack.
A semi-popular Blackjack variant, SuperFun-21, shows surrender very well, but includes "late surrender," where you can surrender after hitting and getting a bad card, or on a dealer's ace after not showing a blackjack.
Early surrender is surrendering on your first two cards when it is your turn to hit or stand, and is more common, if offered.
Quote: PaigowdanSurrender is such a rare option, that its game play mechanisms are generally not known.
Surrender is usually not allowed against a dealer's Ace up card, as you can't surrender against a possible dealer's blackjack.
A semi-popular Blackjack variant, SuperFun-21, shows surrender very well, but includes "late surrender," where you can surrender after hitting and getting a bad card. Early surrender is surrendering on your first two cards when it is your turn to hit or stand.
You said you don't deal blackjack much, right?
Quote: JimRockford
You said you don't deal blackjack much, right?
I used to deal blackjack exclusively, before I learned and was assigned other games.
So, Not much Blackjack now, but I had dealt it for years, including Superfun-21, - which allowed late surrender, - and which was a Blackjack variant that was a staple at Station Casinos' properties.
Generally, I deal only dice, poker variants, and Pai Gow poker now, as the newer break-in dealers, and the dealers who only deal blackjack, are assigned to the blackjack tables. I deal it about once a week at most, and usually on a relief string.
What games do you deal?
What they used to call this late-late surrender on SuperFun-21 (which was the only surrender most dealers ever saw)
was "Surrender Anytime." I think this was also once used on Freebet Blackjack by Switch.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe only place I ever got to play SF-21 was the old temporary MGM Detroit. Was the single deck version dealt from a shoe face up and was S17. One variant I actually liked.
Interesting story about Superfun-21, (and yes, it is kind of surrender-related):
The man who invented this Blackjack variant, the late Howard Grossman, was up against a self-imposed challenge: he asked himself, "Can I invent a successful new game, - a Blackjack variant, - and do it in a 24-hour period, starting now?"
He wanted a No-holds barred, unrestricted option version of blackjack, filled with the best player-advantaged options: double on any hand at any time, even on a 4-card 11; a player's blackjack ALWAYS wins and will never push, even against a dealer's surprise blackjack under a ten-card; a five card hand wins, a five card 21 wins double, AND a player can surrender at any time, and on any number of cards.
He made all these features possible by having a player's blackjack win even money, with one exception: a player's blackjack in diamonds pays 2:1.
The most player-favored rules are the "anytime surrender" and the "anytime double."
I believe The most exposure to surrender that the blackjack playing public has seen was from this game.
Quote: PaigowdanT"late surrender," where you can surrender after hitting and getting a bad card, or on a dealer's ace after not showing a blackjack.
Early surrender is surrendering on your first two cards when it is your turn to hit or stand, and is more common, if offered.
That is not right.
"Early surrender" is rarely offered any more and and allows you to surrender before the dealer checks for blackjack.
"Late surrender" is the type usually offered -- the dealer checks for blackjack first, and, if he has a blackjack, you lose before you get the chance to surrender.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThat is not right.
"Early surrender" is rarely offered any more and and allows you to surrender before the dealer checks for blackjack.
"Late surrender" is the type usually offered -- the dealer checks for blackjack first, and, if he has a blackjack, you lose before you get the chance to surrender.
- you're right.
I learned, back when learning superfun-21, that you:
- cannot surrender when a dealer flips over a blackjack (like on a ten up card BJ),
- or ON a dealer's blackjack,
- but one is given the opportunity on a dealer's ace, to surrender before his check in that case.
That would be before your hit-or-stand, - still on your first two cards.
Also, what was described as "late surrender is part of Superfun-21" - is actually "surrender at any time."
I was also taught that a player can surrender after a double down IF he doubled down for the same amount, not if he doubled down for less, or some game rule reason that was not mathematically sound. (Mathematically, a player should be able to surrender on any double down in that game, as all that has to be done is to return half of his "bet in action," regardless of if it were formed with a full double for same amount, or a double double for less. It doesn't matter if a player has $60 in action from doubling a $30 bet to $60, or doubled a $40 bet for less with $20, to form that $60 bet.)
A lot to consider on surrendering.
Can any Canadian posters confirm Surrender after Peek AND before Play begins?, as opposed to the typical "Surrender in turn" rule common in the US.
Quote: Paigowdan- you're right.
I learned, back when learning superfun-21, that you:
- cannot surrender when a dealer flips over a blackjack (like on a ten up card BJ),
- or ON a dealer's blackjack,
- but one is given the opportunity on a dealer's ace, to surrender before his check in that case.
That would be before your hit-or-stand, - still on your first two cards.
Also, what was described as "late surrender is part of Superfun-21" - is actually "surrender at any time."
I was also taught that a player can surrender after a double down IF he doubled down for the same amount, not if he doubled down for less, or some game rule reason that was not mathematically sound. (Mathematically, a player should be able to surrender on any double down in that game, as all that has to be done is to return half of his "bet in action," regardless of if it were formed with a full double for same amount, or a double double for less. It doesn't matter if a player has $60 in action from doubling a $30 bet to $60, or doubled a $40 bet for less with $20, to form that $60 bet.)
A lot to consider on surrendering.
Is that (surrender after a double down) what they mean by "double down rescue"?
I've seen the game but never played it. Spanish 21 seems to be more popular, although even that is pretty rare. The only blackjack variant I actually play is BJ Switch. There is something about the subtle complexity of the switch decision that I really like.
Quote: AxiomOfChoice
Is that (surrender after a double down) what they mean by "double down rescue"?
That would be yes - IF you can recieve half your current bet back, to get our of the bet, after a "bad double down."
But it would be NO if you're talking about a "Joe Pesci" - discarding the bad double card, and getting another (hopefully better) double down card. :)
[AxiomofChoice]I've seen the game but never played it. Spanish 21 seems to be more popular, although even that is pretty rare. The only blackjack variant I actually play is BJ Switch. There is something about the subtle complexity of the switch decision that I really like.
SuperFun-21 was popular in Vegas for a while, especially at Station properties. I thought it was a great, fully featured BJ variant, basically a "you can do anything" Blackjack - double any time, surrender any time, hit again on split aces, etc. Surprised it faded.
Switch is tricky, - brilliant but dangerous with bad strategy, and some players, too many, committed hara-kiri trying to play it without mastering the different strategy to it.
Quote: WizardAt this risk of reheating this argument for the 17th time, I would call card counting making especially good use of ones brain at the table.
Ruh - Roh...... time to split this one off, Wiz...... And it will only be the 14th time on WoV......
Quote: 98ClubsI agree with Axiom st bottom of Page 2.... BUT this is Canada... In the US, one surrenders in turn. The Canadian Lottery might have different General Rules.
Can any Canadian posters confirm Surrender after Peek AND before Play begins?, as opposed to the typical "Surrender in turn" rule common in the US.
In Ontario, playing Spanish21, you surrender when it's your turn to act. There is no surrender on any BJ tables that I know of in Quebec or Ontario.
This whole idea of having to surrender before the other players act is ridiculous, and clearly a dealer error. It makes no sense with respect to standard dealing procedure. Imagine the lost time if the dealer had to pause and ask everyone before they took their turn if they wanted to surrender, on every deal?
Quote: SOOPOORuh - Roh...... time to split this one off, Wiz...... And it will only be the 14th time on WoV......
Why do I suspect an ulterior motive behind this post ? Ar am I just being paranoid ?
Quote: AB21I have lived and played blackjack in Alberta for 25 years and have the answer to the original question. Unfortunately this was not an error by the dealer - but a very silly house rule. If a player wants to surrender, they must do so prior to the first person at the table taking an additional card. I have no idea why this stupid rule exists, but it certainly means you need to pay attention and act quickly!
Well I stand corrected. But I stand by my assertion this rule is ridiculous.
Quote: AB21I have lived and played blackjack in Alberta for 25 years and have the answer to the original question. Unfortunately this was not an error by the dealer - but a very silly house rule. If a player wants to surrender, they must do so prior to the first person at the table taking an additional card. I have no idea why this stupid rule exists, but it certainly means you need to pay attention and act quickly!
That's exactly why I said in my post that I'd stop short of calling it a mistake. I take it then that the dealer doesn't offer it in a clear organized manner as in insurance rather the player must shout it out as soon as he gets his second card. Is the surrendered hand picked up immediately or in turn?
Quote: 1BBThat's exactly why I said in my post that I'd stop short of calling it a mistake. I take it then that the dealer doesn't offer it in a clear organized manner as in insurance rather the player must shout it out as soon as he gets his second card. Is the surrendered hand picked up immediately or in turn?
That is correct. The dealer does not offer surrender at all, so you pretty much have to shout it out as soon as the dealer finishes dealing everyone their first 2 cards (the Alberta games are no hole card). This can be tricky after a few cocktails or if you get distracted.
Quote: WizardI've seen early surrender lots of times, except against an ace, in Panama and Macau.
Atlantic City had it when they first opened and that was with the dealers ace up.
About Atlantic City – yes, it used to be full early surrender, this is why when this rule was abolished, Ken Uston writes in his ‘Million dollar BJ’ that Atlantic City is not any more the candy store it used to be.
Quote: 24BingoEarly surrender is almost always accompanied by no-peek, isn't it? And hardly ever allowed against an Ace.
Yes. I've only seen it in no-hole-card games, and with rare exception never against an ace. In the early days of Internet casinos Unified Gaming had a 3-2 single-deck game with full early surrender. Player edge of about 0.6%.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/9267-new-casino-offering-early-surrender/
Quote: WizardYes. I've only seen it in no-hole-card games, and with rare exception never against an ace.
Fair enough. I have to admit that when I said it was rarely offered, I was talking only about the US. I've actually never played in a no-hole-card game. What's the current state of BJ in other countries? Playable? I am due for a foreign vacation... are the casinos in Australia as nice as Ian Andersen describes in his book (burning the tables)? He made it sound like black-chip players were treated like royalty...
“Surrender: Once a player has received first two cards and prior to any action, the player will have the option of ”surrender.””
The “prior to any action” statement in policy is interpreted as meaning prior to any action on the table itself and not specific to the action directly associated with your hand"
Quote: GorSo I wrote to the gambling control board in Calgary Alberta and they told me that the surrender rules are as follows:
“Surrender: Once a player has received first two cards and prior to any action, the player will have the option of ”surrender.””
The “prior to any action” statement in policy is interpreted as meaning prior to any action on the table itself and not specific to the action directly associated with your hand"
So you are supposed to yell "Surrender" before first base gets to hit or stand! Or does the dealer, like when offering insurance, scan everyone before asking first base to hit or stand?
