Dealer Mistake
July 2nd, 2012 at 6:34:57 AM
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Alright guys,
This is my first post on here, and I am a relatively new player. Anyway, I was sitting at the blackjack table last night with a buddy and we were both up (I was up $500 and he was up $50). We had been playing at this table for about 3 hours and I decided that after hitting $500, which was my goal, to call it a night. Since he was only up $50, he decided to place a $50 bet for the fun of it. He didn't care if he lost it, since he would just break even.
So, the hands are dealt, and he stands on a hard 17. The dealer has a 2 up, so things are looking good for him. Once all the other players were done playing their hands, the dealer turns up her card to reveal a 6. She then hits and receives an Ace. So now she has a soft 19, but takes another hit and gets a 5. This puts her at a hard 14 and then she takes one more hit and gets a 10. A bust... we both saw the mistake, but remained silent, and one of the other players at the table pointed it out just before she began paying out. She calls the pit boss over, he removes the cards that were drawn after the Ace, and collects all of the bets on the table, aside from a players 20, including my friends.
I told my friend to have it reviewed, because I feel that he should have at least been allowed to keep his bet instead. He seemed ok with the fact that (at the time) he lost his $50 to a mistake by the casino. He decided not to "make a scene" and get it reviewed by the eyes in the sky. He just says, "it's time to go, at least we had fun." I think he was just so upset that his only thought was just to get the hell out of there, because on the drive home, he kept saying "I should have said something", "that was bs", "i can't believe it wasn't treated as a push", etc etc.
Have any of you had something like this happen? Did you contest it?
This is my first post on here, and I am a relatively new player. Anyway, I was sitting at the blackjack table last night with a buddy and we were both up (I was up $500 and he was up $50). We had been playing at this table for about 3 hours and I decided that after hitting $500, which was my goal, to call it a night. Since he was only up $50, he decided to place a $50 bet for the fun of it. He didn't care if he lost it, since he would just break even.
So, the hands are dealt, and he stands on a hard 17. The dealer has a 2 up, so things are looking good for him. Once all the other players were done playing their hands, the dealer turns up her card to reveal a 6. She then hits and receives an Ace. So now she has a soft 19, but takes another hit and gets a 5. This puts her at a hard 14 and then she takes one more hit and gets a 10. A bust... we both saw the mistake, but remained silent, and one of the other players at the table pointed it out just before she began paying out. She calls the pit boss over, he removes the cards that were drawn after the Ace, and collects all of the bets on the table, aside from a players 20, including my friends.
I told my friend to have it reviewed, because I feel that he should have at least been allowed to keep his bet instead. He seemed ok with the fact that (at the time) he lost his $50 to a mistake by the casino. He decided not to "make a scene" and get it reviewed by the eyes in the sky. He just says, "it's time to go, at least we had fun." I think he was just so upset that his only thought was just to get the hell out of there, because on the drive home, he kept saying "I should have said something", "that was bs", "i can't believe it wasn't treated as a push", etc etc.
Have any of you had something like this happen? Did you contest it?
A correct answer is not always the solution to the problem.
July 2nd, 2012 at 6:39:10 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 2nd, 2012 at 6:42:39 AM
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Good to know, this is the first time I've ever seen it happen, as I've only really been playing seriously for about 3 months.
A correct answer is not always the solution to the problem.
July 2nd, 2012 at 6:42:51 AM
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I don't understand what a review would have done. Everything happened correctly.
July 2nd, 2012 at 6:51:48 AM
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Yes,all correct. I would like to point out that your buddys 17 against the dealers deuce isn't something you should feel real good about.
July 2nd, 2012 at 6:53:37 AM
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Quote: FiziksAlright guys,
This is my first post on here, and I am a relatively new player.
Welcome to the Forum! Hopefully you enjoy reading our posts here.
Quote: FiziksHave any of you had something like this happen? Did you contest it?
As stated by ibeatyouraces, the procedure was correct. I saw a dealer hit a soft 18 once by accident, but she drew a 3 which would have made 21... OBVIOUSLY, that was protested by all the players. However hitting a soft 19 would be a first.
Being new to the forum, you will learn very quickly that this thread will most likely get derailed by other scenarios with some people chiming in about how you should ALWAYS correct dealer mistakes and some saying how you should NEVER correct dealer mistakes. I am Switzerland on the issue, and will always stand neutral... but just so you know there is a 60% chance that you opened a can of worms that will get really ugly really quickly, with strong language on both sides...
It's not your fault at all. Please don't let the "conversation" that is likely to ensue detract you from posting on other topics... I'm just giving you a heads up that "Dealer Mistake" as a headline will attract attention...
But back to your original question... the procedure indeed was correct; he should have lost his money, and it's probably best your friend chose to get up when he did.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
July 2nd, 2012 at 7:01:31 AM
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Last weekend, on my last hand of the night, I forgot to place my bet because I was distracted with organizing my chips to color up, but the dealer dealt me cards anyway. It was Texas Hold'em Bonus and she gave me a 2 and 5 unsuited. I folded the hand and then noticed that I had not bet. Before she could say anything, I volunteered my bet/loss and then cashed in. I only take advantage of mistakes when they're clean like if the dealer misses a flush. Then I clam up. If someone else at the table is more honest then I just throw up my hands.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
July 2nd, 2012 at 7:07:45 AM
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Quote: TiltpoulWelcome to the Forum! Hopefully you enjoy reading our posts here.
Thanks, I've been lurking here for a while and have learned a ton so far :)
Quote: TiltpoulBeing new to the forum, you will learn very quickly that this thread will most likely get derailed by other scenarios with some people chiming in about how you should ALWAYS correct dealer mistakes and some saying how you should NEVER correct dealer mistakes. I am Switzerland on the issue, and will always stand neutral... but just so you know there is a 60% chance that you opened a can of worms that will get really ugly really quickly, with strong language on both sides...
It's not your fault at all. Please don't let the "conversation" that is likely to ensue detract you from posting on other topics... I'm just giving you a heads up that "Dealer Mistake" as a headline will attract attention...
Good to know... but isn't that the very nature of conversations? :P
I'm open to hear what anyone has to say, regardless if I agree/disagree with them. I like to keep an open mind and learn from all angles and make my decisions based on that knowledge.
Quote: TiltpoulBut back to your original question... the procedure indeed was correct; he should have lost his money, and it's probably best your friend chose to get up when he did.
Thanks for the info, I think he (and I) will feel better knowing that this is how these scenarios are handled. Like I said, I'm a fairly new blackjack player (though I've been familiar with the game for years) and came from the horrible world of slots. It's the first time I've encountered such a situation, and it very well may not be the last time.
A correct answer is not always the solution to the problem.
July 2nd, 2012 at 7:20:43 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 2nd, 2012 at 8:23:12 AM
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The only thing you or your friend could have said, was to the tell the player who spoke up to keep his mouth shut.
The reality is, the hand lost. Asking for a push is out of the question. As you become more experienced, you'll notice that there are certain procedures that dealers follow. One of them is to scoop the cards in a certain manner after the hand is over, so that, if necessary, they can be laid out again for review.
There is no need to review the video tape in this matter. The cards are all on the table. The extra cards the dealer took are merely removed from her hand. Once that happens, it's obvious your friend lost.
Yeah, it sucks that it happened on the last hand of the day. You have the entire ride home to think about it.
Ask yourself this: If a cashier at a restaurant / supermarket / whatever gave you too much change, would you correct the error? Most people would. But in a casino, not only were you going to not correct the error, but you were tempted to protest when the error got corrected. Why is that?
Note, if you hang out here much, you'll see a lot of threads that talk about casino ethics.
Bottom line, the correct thing to do was to shrug it off.
The reality is, the hand lost. Asking for a push is out of the question. As you become more experienced, you'll notice that there are certain procedures that dealers follow. One of them is to scoop the cards in a certain manner after the hand is over, so that, if necessary, they can be laid out again for review.
There is no need to review the video tape in this matter. The cards are all on the table. The extra cards the dealer took are merely removed from her hand. Once that happens, it's obvious your friend lost.
Yeah, it sucks that it happened on the last hand of the day. You have the entire ride home to think about it.
Ask yourself this: If a cashier at a restaurant / supermarket / whatever gave you too much change, would you correct the error? Most people would. But in a casino, not only were you going to not correct the error, but you were tempted to protest when the error got corrected. Why is that?
Note, if you hang out here much, you'll see a lot of threads that talk about casino ethics.
Bottom line, the correct thing to do was to shrug it off.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
July 2nd, 2012 at 9:14:16 AM
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Since you mentioned that if the dealer takes an unnecessary hit the extra card(s) are burned, what would the procedure be if he/she did the opposite - for example stand on a 16? If they'd just treat that as the dealer standing on 16 then that might be unfair to the odds of the game (or would the dealer go ahead and take another card once the mistake is noticed?).
July 2nd, 2012 at 9:58:03 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 2nd, 2012 at 10:05:28 AM
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Math question -
If the dealer stands on hard 3 card (or more) 16's, would house edge for blackjack go up or down?
If the dealer stands on hard 3 card (or more) 16's, would house edge for blackjack go up or down?
July 2nd, 2012 at 10:17:33 AM
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Interesting.Quote: KellynbnfSince you mentioned that if the dealer takes an unnecessary hit the extra card(s) are burned, what would the procedure be if he/she did the opposite - for example stand on a 16? If they'd just treat that as the dealer standing on 16 then that might be unfair to the odds of the game (or would the dealer go ahead and take another card once the mistake is noticed?).
What was the dealer's top card? Assuming it was a bust card, there are going to be player who stood on less than 16, and will tell the dealer to take another card.
If all the remaining players have totals of 17-21, then they'll probably keep quiet, and take the win, and let the "hit" card become the first player's first card on the next hand, etc. If the dealer is alerted to this mistake at any point prior to the conclusion of the next hand, it would be possible to reconstruct the hand and fix things.
Mind you, it's unlikely that this situation will ever occur.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
July 2nd, 2012 at 11:25:44 AM
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Basic rule of thumb for understanding these casino situations:
1. A dealer's mistake does not make any "wrong money" yours, nor should you want incorrect money; neither would you have accepted the situation if the incorrect result had favored the dealer. Basically, the result you want is the honest result of the play of the cards, after the error is backed out by the floor supervisor.
2. The game play is resolved by floor supervision to institute the correct result that would have occurred had the dealer played out the hand normally.
3. Floor supervision call is final.
1. A dealer's mistake does not make any "wrong money" yours, nor should you want incorrect money; neither would you have accepted the situation if the incorrect result had favored the dealer. Basically, the result you want is the honest result of the play of the cards, after the error is backed out by the floor supervisor.
2. The game play is resolved by floor supervision to institute the correct result that would have occurred had the dealer played out the hand normally.
3. Floor supervision call is final.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
July 2nd, 2012 at 11:28:00 AM
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" 3. Floor supervision call is final. "
The floor has never been wrong ? I doubt that and so does Gaming.
But your statement is generally correct. Just reminding people that there are avenues of appeal, if you have a valid point.
The floor has never been wrong ? I doubt that and so does Gaming.
But your statement is generally correct. Just reminding people that there are avenues of appeal, if you have a valid point.
July 2nd, 2012 at 11:56:06 AM
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Burn the hit cards, let the soft 19 stand, ask all players if they would like to remain in the hand or pull their bet back. At least that's what I would have done if I were pit boss. Goodwill comes first.
Also, your friend was definitely not looking good with 17v2. That's a significant disadvantage.
Also, your friend was definitely not looking good with 17v2. That's a significant disadvantage.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
July 2nd, 2012 at 12:02:13 PM
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Quote: teddysBurn the hit cards, let the soft 19 stand, ask all players if they would like to remain in the hand or pull their bet back. At least that's what I would have done if I were pit boss. Goodwill comes first.
Good will is crucial. Most floormen will give out pushes/a mulligan. Casinos know where their money comes from, and looking good to customers is vital.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
July 2nd, 2012 at 1:37:13 PM
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Since the dealer busts more than 50% with a total of 16, I would make a guess that the house edge would increase if the dealer stood on hard 16.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
July 2nd, 2012 at 1:38:11 PM
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Quote: FinsRuleMath question -
If the dealer stands on hard 3 card (or more) 16's, would house edge for blackjack go up or down?
I believe that the house edge would go down if the dealer would stand on hard 3 card (or more) 16's. Here is a table of the player EV's vs various hard and soft dealer standing totals using the infinite-deck model for no surrender, split non-ace pairs to 4 hands, double any two cards, and double after split. However, the results for 16 are for TWO or more cards.
By the way, these results show that standing on hard 17 and hitting soft 17 is the optimal house strategy.
Hard stand Soft stand Player EV
18 17 6.19%
18 18 6.32%
17 17 -0.51%
17 18 -0.73%
17 19 -0.71%
16 16 0.87%
16 17 0.29%
16 18 -0.10%
15 15 5.29%
15 16 4.66%
15 17 4.07%
15 18 3.72%
14 14 10.83%
14 15 10.15%
14 16 9.48%
14 17 8.97%
14 18 8.72%
July 2nd, 2012 at 1:42:58 PM
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Quote: KellynbnfSince you mentioned that if the dealer takes an unnecessary hit the extra card(s) are burned, what would the procedure be if he/she did the opposite - for example stand on a 16? If they'd just treat that as the dealer standing on 16 then that might be unfair to the odds of the game (or would the dealer go ahead and take another card once the mistake is noticed?).
I have seen this happen,usually the dealer has multi cards,many times a soft hand and they think they have 17.
If everyone wins it`s not a problem but if someone had less than 16 they will complain.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
July 2nd, 2012 at 2:00:31 PM
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Dealer mistake in your favor adds to your EV - keep your mouth shut!!!
Dealer mistake in house's favor lowers your EV - you'd better open your mouth!!!
Dealer mistake in house's favor lowers your EV - you'd better open your mouth!!!
July 3rd, 2012 at 9:18:55 PM
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Quote: aceofspadesDealer mistake in your favor adds to your EV - keep your mouth shut!!!
Dealer mistake in house's favor lowers your EV - you'd better open your mouth!!!
second.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
July 3rd, 2012 at 10:10:55 PM
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Quote: WongBosecond.
ALL dirty money is just dirty money - doesn't matter which direction.
Never take it or pay it.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
July 3rd, 2012 at 10:17:10 PM
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I was taught in dealer's school in 1990 to never pay with dirty money. But most BJ dealers do !
July 7th, 2012 at 9:31:16 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanALL dirty money is just dirty money - doesn't matter which direction.
Never take it or pay it.
Money is money - do not attach superstitions to it.
July 7th, 2012 at 10:58:20 AM
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Quote: aceofspadesMoney is money - do not attach superstitions to it.
It is not about superstition. It is about a players seeing his losses not go directly to the house, but to the obnoxious jerk next to him LOL
July 7th, 2012 at 11:03:59 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 7th, 2012 at 11:05:20 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesNeed to tell this to the U.S., State and local governments.
They love dirty money. That's why they have laws against money laundering.
July 7th, 2012 at 11:11:38 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 7th, 2012 at 11:21:19 AM
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Every dime was earned by an honest man and stole by the politician. LOL
July 7th, 2012 at 11:26:18 AM
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Been there done that, the casino handled it correctly. Your friend lost, the dealer had 19...end of discussion.
July 7th, 2012 at 11:27:49 AM
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Quote: vendman1Been there done that, the casino handled it correctly. Your friend lost, the dealer had 19...end of discussion.
Gee, you are taking all the fun out of this thread. I never let facts get in the way of a heated discussion.
July 7th, 2012 at 11:29:33 AM
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Sorry Buzzpaff, what I meant to say was WHAT AN OUTRAGE!!! How dare the casino win :) Is that better?
