kenarman
kenarman
Joined: Nov 22, 2009
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February 14th, 2010 at 4:34:03 PM permalink
I have been wondering why many of the bankroll management systems have win limits. Stop limits are self evident for all but Martingale believers but I don't understand win limits as way to know when to quit. If you have a system to increase your bet as you win but always maintain some of the win as profit why would you quit in the middle of a winning streak since no one can predict when it will end. The only logical time to have a win stop limit that I can understand is if you don't have the discipline to leave with the winnings you have set aside from your previous wins. I always use progressive bet increase systems at craps with great success and really hot rolls has produced 5 figure wins for me with a $5 starting bet with less than full odds and $100 to $200 loss limit per session. Of course if I guessed right and pulled my odds on the second to last roll before the 7 out I could have saved close to $2000 when I have had the 5 figure wins.

I haven't kept accurate win/loss records of my time at the craps table but expect it is close to breakeven over the 40 years I have been playing craps, likely not far from the 1.4% it should be. I welcome comments on the reasons for win limits.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
DorothyGale
DorothyGale
Joined: Nov 23, 2009
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February 14th, 2010 at 5:15:57 PM permalink
Why shout [all caps is considered shouting -- see the thread title]?

My answer is pragmatic -- anything that gets a person to not play another hand when the house has an edge is a good thing.

--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
wildqat
wildqat
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
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February 14th, 2010 at 5:31:30 PM permalink
The reason is that once you get up, you want to make sure you leave with it and don't accidentally play it back.

I suppose that if you play a very strict Kelly bet and recalculate it every time on the fly so that you change your bets as you win or lose and your advantage changes that might work as long as you don't hit a nasty losing streak. Elsewise, you want to do two things:

1) Take the money

2) Run
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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February 14th, 2010 at 5:34:38 PM permalink
Quote: DorothyGale

My answer is pragmatic -- anything that gets a person to not play another hand when the house has an edge is a good thing.

Any math whiz will tell you to wager your entire bankroll and then walk away, win or lose. Its just that is a bit hard to do and if you do lose its difficult to find all that much else to do for a week's vacation in Vegas if you've blown your entire bankroll on the first roll of the dice.

The pragmatism comes into play at the beginning and also at the end. A win limit forces you to do the one think that a casino never wants a player to do: walk away with his bankroll intact.
JB
Administrator
JB
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February 14th, 2010 at 5:50:47 PM permalink
Quote: DorothyGale

Why shout [all caps is considered shouting -- see the thread title]?


Admin note: caps reduced to lowercase.
kenarman
kenarman
Joined: Nov 22, 2009
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February 14th, 2010 at 6:35:37 PM permalink
sorry about the shouting. Forgot my caps were on and didn't go back to change it.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
seattledice
seattledice
Joined: Dec 3, 2009
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February 14th, 2010 at 7:16:29 PM permalink
I don't think you should have win limits in the sense that you walk away from the table while you are winning just because you are up $200 and that was your 'win limit'. Using craps as an example, if the shooter is hitting number after number and you hit your limit, you might want to take down some of your bets, or you might want to keep pressing to see how far this win streak can go. After the shooter sevens out you might want to color in right away (especially if you are at you 'win limit') or set aside a large portion of your winnings that you will keep along with your original buy in, and keep gambling with a small portion of your winnings. You might want to go back to your original betting strategy or, since you are ahead, get more aggressive, knowing that you will walk away with a win.

Regardless of what you do, you need to have a plan before you make that first bet.

And one more reason not to have a win limit. Let's say you've been at the craps table for an hour, and you have been down a couple hundred, enough to almost hit your loss limit, and finally you manage to latch onto a decent streak and when the shooter sevens out you are up $50. But your win limit is $200. What do you do? It really should be time to walk away with a profit. Find your spouse and get something to eat. Re-energize yourself for another session later.
Mosca
Mosca
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
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February 14th, 2010 at 7:44:24 PM permalink
When I'm winning I set a loss limit. Say, if I'm up $700, I'll set a limit of losing back until I'm up only $400. Then I'll cash in, go find Mrs Mosca and sit next to her at a quarter slot for a while, then maybe we'll grab lunch or dinner, then I'll start by playing with that $400 as if it was the original bankroll.

I'll also set time limits. Assuming I don't hit either my real or secondary loss limits, I'll decide when I sit down how long I'll play before going for a walk or finding the Mrs.
NO KILL I
kenarman
kenarman
Joined: Nov 22, 2009
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February 14th, 2010 at 7:54:19 PM permalink
[
Regardless of what you do, you need to have a plan before you make that first bet.

Totally agree on the plan of action.

And one more reason not to have a win limit. Let's say you've been at the craps table for an hour, and you have been down a couple hundred, enough to almost hit your loss limit, and finally you manage to latch onto a decent streak and when the shooter sevens out you are up $50. But your win limit is $200. What do you do? It really should be time to walk away with a profit. Find your spouse and get something to eat. Re-energize yourself for another session later.



Totally agree with the leave the table for a while at that point but as you say I am well below my win limit. It seems you are agreeing with my point about not having win limits since I would be leaving the table without reaching either limit. My loss limits do include the money already won and I never press bets with my original stake only with a portion of my winnings.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
kenarman
kenarman
Joined: Nov 22, 2009
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February 14th, 2010 at 7:59:47 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

When I'm winning I set a loss limit. Say, if I'm up $700, I'll set a limit of losing back until I'm up only $400. Then I'll cash in, go find Mrs Mosca and sit next to her at a quarter slot for a while, then maybe we'll grab lunch or dinner, then I'll start by playing with that $400 as if it was the original bankroll.

I'll also set time limits. Assuming I don't hit either my real or secondary loss limits, I'll decide when I sit down how long I'll play before going for a walk or finding the Mrs.




You are even more aggresive than I am then. I will take a break and chill for a while with Mrs Kenarman at the slots with a drink but when I go back I am back down to my original session bankroll of no more than $200. Maybe thats because usually she has hit me for a few c notes at that point.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.

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