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OnceDear
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April 11th, 2021 at 12:21:42 PM permalink
Quote: Expectedvalue

You are missing one thing. Simply telling the result is not what I’m asking for I’m asking for a record of what was stated below

Hand number
Bet amount
Bet type
Win loss amount

Well, to be perfectly honest, I'd never read this condition that you should see such a detailed record. No way I see that as within either the original agreement in this thread, nor even in the 'challenge thread' where I do see...
"A full session report can be posted my mdawg and verified by wizard "

A. you used the word 'can', not 'will' or 'must'
B. nobody defined what a full session report is. What you now describe is way beyond MDawg's usual session reports.

I give up on the6l00dy pair of you!
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
Expectedvalue
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April 11th, 2021 at 12:25:45 PM permalink
Then again. I am not participating it’s a simple yes or no. Again this would not jeordize whatever system dawg has. I’m not there . It’s my money. If he would like to agree to the recording as I stated above then fine. If not it’s just as easy for me to walk away.
This is why judges scorecards are revealed. Not just a win lose. This is why jury’s are polled. Get a grip
SOOPOO
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April 11th, 2021 at 12:59:22 PM permalink
Quote: Expectedvalue

Then again. I am not participating it’s a simple yes or no. Again this would not jeordize whatever system dawg has. I’m not there . It’s my money. If he would like to agree to the recording as I stated above then fine. If not it’s just as easy for me to walk away.
This is why judges scorecards are revealed. Not just a win lose. This is why jury’s are polled. Get a grip



‘It’s my money’. I now disagree with that statement. You transferred the money to the Wiz and it is now money in escrow. I would interpret the previous billion pages in this and the other challenge thread that it is up to the Wiz to determine if the terms for a challenge were agreed to. In my opinion, they were, and if were the Wiz I would be arranging with MDawg to evaluate the session that MDawg will be playing, at a time convenient to Wiz and MDawg.

That is why you sent the escrow money to the Wiz. You must have understood that once sent you no longer have authority over that money, and the Wiz does.

I believe a few million posts back I posted ‘IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN’. The twists and turns have likely being correct, but maybe backwards?

ExpectedValue... does a single ‘regular member’ here know you? Anyone who can vouch that YOU are a big money player as you have stated? I found it odd that you transferred the Bitcoin to the Wiz in multiple partial amounts.

There is a non zero chance that, given the way this has progressed, that ExpectedValue is actually.... !!!!!!!
Fill in the blanks!
MDawg
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April 11th, 2021 at 1:01:08 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I am perfectly able to keep a count of bets of at least $200. If they don't let me keep track on a shoe sheet, I'll use a clicker in my pocket. I will take careful note of the starting and ending balance and adjust for any tips and commissions. As to keeping an exact log of every hand, I don't mind if the casino lets me, but this doesn't seem to be necessary per the original rules of the challenge.

As to the BTC, I have received $2025.89 so far.

If a hand by hand log is going to be a deal breaker, then I guess the challenge is off. It should be noted that no log was mentioned in the original challenge, so I have to take Ddawg's side on this that he has the right to decline this added condition.


Quote: darkoz

Here is my two cents.

MDawg has given details of his play including wagers and his "system" but as other AP's on here (including myself) have been saying there is more than what MDawg is describing.

I.E. He uses some edge and doesn't want that disclosed.

BTW, I and others have always stated MDawg can be a winner if he utilizes some sort of advantage. I make a living at it myself.

As to EV, he says he too is wealthy, enough to do the same type of wagers as MDawg. This might be a chance for him to grab MDawg's methods

Really, does anyone believe EV is just paying a few grand for an observation?

If all the above is correct I am on MDawg side in this although I just wish he would admit to being an advantage player.

MDawg is clearly concerned with doxxing, being identified, etc. For all his "no one at Baccarat gets barred" assertions, he seems overly concerned with identity


Quote: OnceDear

Well, to be perfectly honest, I'd never read this condition that you should see such a detailed record. No way I see that as within either the original agreement in this thread, nor even in the 'challenge thread' where I do see...
"A full session report can be posted my mdawg and verified by wizard "

A. you used the word 'can', not 'will' or 'must'
B. nobody defined what a full session report is. What you now describe is way beyond MDawg's usual session reports.


Quote: SOOPOO

‘It’s my money’. I now disagree with that statement. You transferred the money to the Wiz and it is now money in escrow. I would interpret the previous billion pages in this and the other challenge thread that it is up to the Wiz to determine if the terms for a challenge were agreed to. In my opinion, they were, and if were the Wiz I would be arranging with MDawg to evaluate the session that MDawg will be playing, at a time convenient to Wiz and MDawg.

That is why you sent the escrow money to the Wiz. You must have understood that once sent you no longer have authority over that money, and the Wiz does.


There is nothing in the challenge terms that state that ExpectedValue is entitled to receive a detailed record of every hand played. As OnceDear, SooPoo and DarkOz have all stated, there is in fact every reason to understand why such a thing would not have been agreed to by me, and it was not.

I have no problem with Wizard judging and recording however he wishes for his own private records.

I am going to ask the Wizard to enforce the contract as per the terms as stated and to move forward. The right of withdrawal is foreclosed to a party to a contract once it has been accepted, and consideration has changed hands. I will move the Wizard to enforce this contract specifically.

Last edited by: MDawg on Apr 11, 2021
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
heatmap
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April 11th, 2021 at 1:08:37 PM permalink
doesnt all of this encompass part of the adventure? sockpuppets, banter back and fourth, trying to get the puppets or whatever?
Wizard
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April 11th, 2021 at 1:13:47 PM permalink
I received a demand from EV to return the funds he sent thus far, which I just did.

The way I see it, the public was only to get a a confirmation the terms were met and whether there was a net profit or loss. It did not bother me that additional terms were requested/demanded by EV. However, in my opinion, MDawg had the right to decline the modification to the original deal.

As for me, this has been a big waste of time with a lots of PM's back and forth. I think Mdawg is entitled to be even more angry as this challenge was a sweet deal to him. In my opinion, EV should offer some restitution to MDawg and myself (I'd say about 80% to MDawg) for wasting our time.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DeMango
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April 11th, 2021 at 1:15:59 PM permalink
If not, nuke him.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
ChumpChange
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April 11th, 2021 at 1:24:19 PM permalink
$2,000 is nothing to MDawg, unless it's a session win.
MDawg
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April 11th, 2021 at 1:28:25 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I received a demand from EV to return the funds he sent thus far, which I just did.

The way I see it, the public was only to get a a confirmation the terms were met and whether there was a net profit or loss. It did not bother me that additional terms were requested/demanded by EV. However, in my opinion, MDawg had the right to decline the modification to the original deal.

As for me, this has been a big waste of time with a lots of PM's back and forth. I think Mdawg is entitled to be even more angry as this challenge was a sweet deal to him. In my opinion, EV should offer some restitution to MDawg and myself (I'd say about 80% to MDawg) for wasting our time.


It is a total waste of time. At Wizard's request, I drafted a contract between Wizard and me and emailed it to him, I went back and forth multiple times with ExpectedValue on the forum including conceding to alteration after alteration proposed by him, ultimately agreeing to most everything new he demanded, and then finally at the end of the day he reneged.

I believe I have the right to ask that ExpectedValue either be suspended for at least a month, or cough up $250. in BTC to Wizard, and $500. in BTC to me care of Wizard. And that is more than 20% to the Wizard but I feel like Wizard was put in the middle of this. That will prove that ExpectedValue is for real, which may be all he was trying to prove by doing this because it seems clear that whatever he wanted out of this was not simply to pay someone to watch me play.

I just hope that when the history books are closed on this one that it is clear that that this guy just wasted all of our time, and that I made multiple concessions for terms that he did not include in what was already agreed as final.

Last edited by: MDawg on Apr 11, 2021
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
AxelWolf
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April 11th, 2021 at 1:36:26 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Remember when Mdawg offered a challenge to the forum(it wasn't just me). I accepted the challenge and only asked that he come up with a way to guarantee payment if I were to win and come up with a list of people who could be the judges before I got started. He agreed he would do both.

It seemed as if he was stalling as he kept adding clauses and went on and on about how I wouldn't be able to win the challenge and adding more BS while telling me I didn't understand the challenge. That should have not been a concern of his. If I didn't understand the challenge, that would have been on me and lead to my failure. Let the judges be the judge of that.

It's obvious MDawg started to realize that if I set my mind to doing something I would figure out a way to achieve It probably freaked him out when I said I was going to go way above and beyond what was needed.

The challenge was to Fake the Adventures of MDawg. Here is the gist of the clauses he was adding: I couldn't use my REAL pictures and evidence, and I couldn't use FAKE pictures...ROTFLMAO...



Then he somehow convinced Mike there was no meeting of the minds. I actually think that Mike didn't understand what was going on, so he basically went with that so to let MDawg off the hook from the challenge and not have to deal with him even more than he had to already. IIRC MDawg got a month off for those shenanigans.

I remember that you said early on it would never happen. Did you think it wasn't going to happen because I was going to back out or not put in a serious effort? Why did you think that?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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April 11th, 2021 at 1:40:15 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I received a demand from EV to return the funds he sent thus far, which I just did.

The way I see it, the public was only to get a a confirmation the terms were met and whether there was a net profit or loss. It did not bother me that additional terms were requested/demanded by EV. However, in my opinion, MDawg had the right to decline the modification to the original deal.

As for me, this has been a big waste of time with a lots of PM's back and forth. I think Mdawg is entitled to be even more angry as this challenge was a sweet deal to him. In my opinion, EV should offer some restitution to MDawg and myself (I'd say about 80% to MDawg) for wasting our time.

And the Challange offer to fake the Adventures of MDawg wasn't a big waste of time?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MDawg
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April 11th, 2021 at 1:50:05 PM permalink
I will respond briefly, but let's not rehash something from many months ago! If I'm still talking about this ExpectedValue fiasco in a year, I give you permission to paste a Kick Me sign on my back.

In that scenario with AW, we hadn't even agreed on the judges, I wanted three as I recall and for their ruling to be unanimous, among other terms that were up in the air. That is rather different from today, where everything was quite clear and black and white. And in any case, I withdrew from the "AW Challenge" based on advice from the Wizard - the Wizard himself advised me to withdraw - and I agreed to a suspension.


Today's Challenge was a rather simple case of paying Wizard and me for our time, with ExpectedValue coming up with more and more additional terms after we agreed to what he proposed, most of which additional terms I agreed to. It is really rather absurd when you think about it that ExpectedValue is demanding a record of every hand played - which is much to say that he doesn't trust the Wizard to judge - implying that the Wizard would record things for himself and then somehow falsify the results or add them up wrong? If so, and he doesn't trust the Wizard, why pick him as judge? Why even enter into any of this to begin with?

I said I was fine with the Wizard's judging however he chose.

In any case, ExpectedValue should have made whatever he wanted clear from the outset - not thrown it in piecemeal as we went along. Really an unprofessional way to do things that does not reflect well on him, and I agree with Wizard that he should compensate us for our time.

Alternatively, he could wind up the real hero here by just re-sending the funds to Wizard and saying...let's do this thing!
Last edited by: MDawg on Apr 11, 2021
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
darkoz
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April 11th, 2021 at 1:58:54 PM permalink
Well if I ever renege on an offer to buy you dinner I will at least pay for dessert
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
OnceDear
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April 11th, 2021 at 2:07:59 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

ExpectedValue... does a single ‘regular member’ here know you? Anyone who can vouch that YOU are a big money player as you have stated? I found it odd that you transferred the Bitcoin to the Wiz in multiple partial amounts.

There is a non zero chance that, given the way this has progressed, that ExpectedValue is actually.... !!!!!!!
Fill in the blanks!



... is actually MDawg? LOL.
Nooooooo. Sorry folks. I'm having a big laugh at this whole ridiculous situation.
Fire the script writer, because it would be too absurd.

I'm not saying or suggesting that EV is a sock, especially of MDawg. I'm not suggesting that anyone is a sock, not even the ones connecting through vpns.*

But how machiavellian would it be if MDawg had created his own challenger, sent $2k of bitcoin to Mike which would either get returned, or mostly transferred to MDawg.

No..... that would be too unbelievable.

Now..... Did anyone start a book on how this challenge would end? Did it end?

*VPNs...... damn them.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
MDawg
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April 11th, 2021 at 2:15:12 PM permalink
If ExpectedValue had a genuine intent to go through with this thing, I believe he will come back, re fund the Wizard, and allow this to proceed. The difference between trusting the Wizard to record every hand privately and demanding to see a record of each hand is just a matter of trust in the Wizard. I trust the Wizard or I wouldn't agree to meet with him in the first place for this Challenge.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
ChumpChange
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April 11th, 2021 at 2:21:58 PM permalink
I'm guessing Roger Ebert would be in the back room demanding surveillance tapes if he were still alive. Film at 11.
DRich
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April 11th, 2021 at 2:29:55 PM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

... is actually MDawg? LOL.
Nooooooo. Sorry folks. I'm having a big laugh at this whole ridiculous situation.
Fire the script writer, because it would be too absurd.

I'm not saying or suggesting that EV is a sock, especially of MDawg. I'm not suggesting that anyone is a sock, not even the ones connecting through vpns.*

But how machiavellian would it be if MDawg had created his own challenger, sent $2k of bitcoin to Mike which would either get returned, or mostly transferred to MDawg.

No..... that would be too unbelievable.

Now..... Did anyone start a book on how this challenge would end? Did it end?

*VPNs...... damn them.



I love that theory. Let's just assume it is true.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
AxelWolf
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April 11th, 2021 at 3:02:26 PM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

... is actually MDawg? LOL.
Nooooooo. Sorry folks. I'm having a big laugh at this whole ridiculous situation.
Fire the script writer, because it would be too absurd.

I'm not saying or suggesting that EV is a sock, especially of MDawg. I'm not suggesting that anyone is a sock, not even the ones connecting through vpns.*

But how machiavellian would it be if MDawg had created his own challenger, sent $2k of bitcoin to Mike which would either get returned, or mostly transferred to MDawg.

No..... that would be too unbelievable.

Now..... Did anyone start a book on how this challenge would end? Did it end?

*VPNs...... damn them.

How can I believe that theory since I dont believe MD would be willing to actually send any BTC to Mike? That was one of the excuses that he used before when it came to using BTC as a method of securing any challenge. He wouldn't prove he even has the funds/BTC to pay off any challenges or bets he might make. Mike held more of mine than i was asking him to put up and I was willing to put up more, I only asked that MD put a fraction of that up risk-free with no obligations(I actually think he would have made $50 or something like that per my offer). He came up with some nonsense about how he didn't want to sell any BTC and lose money on the movement. That is when it made ME BELIEVE that he had no clue how BTC actually worked since I told him he would get back the same amount of BTC as he put up, but he didn't seem to understand that concept at the time.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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April 11th, 2021 at 3:14:15 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

I will respond briefly, but let's not rehash something from many months ago! If I'm still talking about this ExpectedValue fiasco in a year, I give you permission to paste a Kick Me sign on my back.

In that scenario with AW, we hadn't even agreed on the judges, I wanted three as I recall and for their ruling to be unanimous, among other terms that were up in the air. That is rather different from today, where everything was quite clear and black and white. And in any case, I withdrew from the "AW Challenge" based on advice from the Wizard - the Wizard himself advised me to withdraw - and I agreed to a suspension.


Today's Challenge was a rather simple case of paying Wizard and me for our time, with ExpectedValue coming up with more and more additional terms after we agreed to what he proposed, most of which additional terms I agreed to. It is really rather absurd when you think about it that ExpectedValue is demanding a record of every hand played - which is much to say that he doesn't trust the Wizard to judge - implying that the Wizard would record things for himself and then somehow falsify the results or add them up wrong? If so, and he doesn't trust the Wizard, why pick him as judge? Why even enter into any of this to begin with?

I said I was fine with the Wizard's judging however he chose.

In any case, ExpectedValue should have made whatever he wanted clear from the outset - not thrown it in piecemeal as we went along. Really an unprofessional way to do things that does not reflect well on him, and I agree with Wizard that he should compensate us for our time.

Alternatively, he could wind up the real hero here by just re-sending the funds to Wizard and saying...let's do this thing!

Yeah, you wanted a unanimous decision based on picking Coach Belly as a judge. You guys came up with that BS after I JOKED about having PokerGrinder as a judge. I asked you to come up with a list of people, and I would do the same, if any people on our lists matched we would ask them if they would be willing to judge. A unanimous decision would be acceptable under those conditions.

You wanted to back out BEFORE he gave you that advice, and I have proof that indicates that. I'm sure he only advised that to you since he also got the feeling you wanted to back out so he gave that to you as an option to save you from having to eventually pay out 5k.

No doubt, he just got tired of a million long-winded PMs that was making his head spin. I'm willing to allow Mike to disclose all my PMs related to that situation and we can include mine and yours., if you are willing to do the same and let us see how it all really played out. I think it would be rather eye-opening to see if and what kind of manipulation was going on there.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
unJon
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April 11th, 2021 at 3:29:13 PM permalink
This EV thing turned lame.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Wizard
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April 11th, 2021 at 3:39:08 PM permalink
Let's not rehash the whole Axel vs Mdawg challenge, please. Go back to the thread for that if you must wake up that sleeping dog. I'll just close by saying that Mdawg accepted without argument and served a one-month suspension for backing out of challenge, so let's let bygones be bygones on that.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wellbush
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April 11th, 2021 at 5:04:53 PM permalink
It’s very disappointing that EV has been a total waste of time
All persons reading my posts gamble at their own risk, as I do. I don't ordinarily dispute math. I may dispute math I don't understand, or if I think it's faulty. I am not a conspiracy theorist.
TomG
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April 11th, 2021 at 5:12:39 PM permalink
Should have been very obvious that something like this could never happen. A conservative estimate would show MDawg's advantage over the house to be worth eight figures. No way would he risk exposing that for a mere $2000. Detailed documentation and reporting of what he does at the table might shine light into how he is able to win so much and could hurt his play going forward.

I do give credit to EV for trying to gain some insight in how to have a huge edge at the casino for such a cheap amount.
SOOPOO
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April 11th, 2021 at 5:25:57 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Remember when Mdawg offered a challenge to the forum(it wasn't just me). I accepted the challenge and only asked that he come up with a way to guarantee payment if I were to win and come up with a list of people who could be the judges before I got started. He agreed he would do both.

It seemed as if he was stalling as he kept adding clauses and went on and on about how I wouldn't be able to win the challenge and adding more BS while telling me I didn't understand the challenge. That should have not been a concern of his. If I didn't understand the challenge, that would have been on me and lead to my failure. Let the judges be the judge of that.

It's obvious MDawg started to realize that if I set my mind to doing something I would figure out a way to achieve It probably freaked him out when I said I was going to go way above and beyond what was needed.

The challenge was to Fake the Adventures of MDawg. Here is the gist of the clauses he was adding: I couldn't use my REAL pictures and evidence, and I couldn't use FAKE pictures...ROTFLMAO...



Then he somehow convinced Mike there was no meeting of the minds. I actually think that Mike didn't understand what was going on, so he basically went with that so to let MDawg off the hook from the challenge and not have to deal with him even more than he had to already. IIRC MDawg got a month off for those shenanigans.

I remember that you said early on it would never happen. Did you think it wasn't going to happen because I was going to back out or not put in a serious effort? Why did you think that?



I never expected MDawg to risk even $1 if he had to escrow money. I am not sure if ExpectedValue actually risked $1 here. Since he had Mike refund the money after adding more conditions after a deal had been struck, and Mike agreed to the refund, EV’s risk was zero. MDawg’s risk has been zero as well. I have NO DIRECT EVIDENCE that EV is not bonafide, but the circumstantial evidence is mounting.

Is there a SINGLE long term poster, heck, even new poster, who can vouch for EV as a big time gambler?
MDawg
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April 11th, 2021 at 5:29:12 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

Should have been very obvious that something like this could never happen. A conservative estimate would show MDawg's advantage over the house to be worth eight figures. No way would he risk exposing that for a mere $2000. Detailed documentation and reporting of what he does at the table might shine light into how he is able to win so much and could hurt his play going forward.

I do give credit to EV for trying to gain some insight in how to have a huge edge at the casino for such a cheap amount.


The Emperor Claudius once declared that while any of his more subtle, wittier jokes seemed to go over the heads of the Roman Legions he was addressing in the fields, any sort of crude direct humor always had them rolling with laughter.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
AxelWolf
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April 11th, 2021 at 5:41:33 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Let's not rehash the whole Axel vs Mdawg challenge, please. Go back to the thread for that if you must wake up that sleeping dog. I'll just close by saying that Mdawg accepted without argument and served a one-month suspension for backing out of challenge, so let's let bygones be bygones on that.

OH, boy, did he run to you complaining, yet again? Sorry to YOU for bringing it up, but, it's a Wolf eat Dwag world and I feel there are a ton of hypocrisies related to this challenge by MDawg and his "associates" that should be noted.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
BoSox
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April 11th, 2021 at 5:58:53 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg



Today's Challenge was a rather simple case of paying Wizard and me for our time, with ExpectedValue coming up with more and more additional terms after we agreed to what he proposed, most of which additional terms I agreed to. It is really rather absurd when you think about it that ExpectedValue is demanding a record of every hand played - which is much to say that he doesn't trust the Wizard to judge - implying that the Wizard would record things for himself and then somehow falsify the results or add them up wrong? If so, and he doesn't trust the Wizard, why pick him as judge? Why even enter into any of this to begin with?

I said I was fine with the Wizard's judging however he chose.

In any case, ExpectedValue should have made whatever he wanted clear from the outset - not thrown it in piecemeal as we went along. Really an unprofessional way to do things that does not reflect well on him, and I agree with Wizard that he should compensate us for our time.

Alternatively, he could wind up the real hero here by just re-sending the funds to Wizard and saying...let's do this thing!



I believe the only mistake that Expected Value made was trying to buy your time in the first place. You are trying to put all the blame on him for everything when you gave him reasons very early on to be skeptical of your character. First, you tried to say that he made a deal when there was clear confusion involving the same deal being made on two different threads. You insisted that you had a struck deal even when Expected Value clearly said that he was referring to some wording that was written in the other thread. I think that is when he started thinking twice about the character of the individual that he was dealing with.

Subsequently, he added more terms which I do not blame him in the least. And you came and asked him why are you trying to make changes now, well maybe you should look in the mirror for those reasons. You always try to blame everyone else for disruptions "there are plenty" made in every dispute that you are involved in. Could the reason be that people call into question if you are an honorable man?
AxelWolf
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April 11th, 2021 at 6:19:03 PM permalink
Quote: BoSox

I believe the only mistake that Expected Value made was trying to buy your time in the first place. You are trying to put all the blame on him for everything when you gave him reasons very early on to be skeptical of your character. First, you tried to say that he made a deal when there was clear confusion involving the same deal being made on two different threads. You insisted that you had a struck deal even when Expected Value clearly said that he was referring to some wording that was written in the other thread. I think that is when he started thinking twice about the character of the individual that he was dealing with.

Subsequently, he added more terms which I do not blame him in the least. And you came and asked him why are you trying to make changes now, well maybe you should look in the mirror for those reasons. You always try to blame everyone else for disruptions "there are plenty" made in every dispute that you are involved in. Could the reason be that people call into question if you are an honorable man?

Well said. The funny thing is... according to what he seems to be saying is that everyone else seems to be the problem. When you seem to have a problem with just about everyone but a few then the problem is probably YOU.

He wants everyone to believe his haters are all jealous. I'm not sure how that makes any sense when most people don't believe this is real in the first place.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Expectedvalue
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April 11th, 2021 at 6:26:48 PM permalink
I ended the challenging because it was too much back and forth. People wanted to hold me to something that wasn’t the spirit of the bet. I made an offer and then waited in wizard and posted a new thread meant to not hijack this one and to be a separate thread to clarify terms. Coach belly , whom I sent a direct message to weeks ago because he said he would forward to mdawg never did it. My challenge was for the benefit of the forum to watch mdawg play as nornal. That normal got whittled done in discussion to what I felt wasn’t even normal according to his trip reports. He doesn’t claim to only bet 200. In fact he claims averages of 1k most times, he also says he doesn’t flat bet. I tried to add all of these normal things in but got blasted by the forum. Mdawg is the one making the claims. He posts across 3 forums , one called true passage , none of this makes sense to me, possibly some others, so I was willing to donate . There isn’t a single system out there or secret that I would be able to determine from knowing he bet size and recorded bets. Let anyone come in this thread and show me differently. There was every objection in the book given when all I wanted was to be 100 percent sure that I was not taken advantage of , since I was already being more than generous in giving wizard 500 for his time and mdawg a 75 percent chance of winning. I and all around me wanted to see the dawg in his natural habitat. He was not happy showing that
TomG
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April 11th, 2021 at 6:29:56 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Well said. The funny thing is... according what he seems to be saying is that everyone else seems to be the problem. When you seem to have a problem with just about everyone but a few then the problem is probably YOU.



It often seems that the only people MDawg does not have a problem with are those whose entire existence here is to offer him support. Do those people ever participate in general gambling, casino, or Las Vegas discussions?
ChumpChange
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April 11th, 2021 at 6:40:45 PM permalink
I just came to this thread to go hard on Baccarat while the high roller was available.
Expectedvalue
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April 11th, 2021 at 7:09:13 PM permalink
To add one more thing. When mdawg I. His reports say something to the effect of. I was salivating over how obvious this next hand for the player was. It’s demeaning to everyone on the forum as far as common sense. You either have some way to beat the house or you don’t. Voodoo does not work
DRich
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April 11th, 2021 at 7:11:48 PM permalink
I am going to try to summarize this whole thread.

Big claims
Many detractors
Who Cares?
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Expectedvalue
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April 11th, 2021 at 7:44:31 PM permalink
Without wizard recording bets, is there anyone who serious doubts this could be happening, not saying it is, just one black and white possibility .

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.reviewjournal.com/local/local-las-vegas/cosmo-casino-workers-player-booked-in-probe-of-mini-baccarat-theft/amp/
Mission146
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April 11th, 2021 at 8:09:50 PM permalink
It doesn't look like this is going forward, so I'll offer my opinions:

1.) MDawg should have accepted (but had the right to decline) the additional terms of the results being recorded.

A reasonable modification to this request would have been to write down the bet amount and win/loss from the bet, but not what side was bet on each individual hand. The only thing that should specifically not be permitted would be to bet Banker/Player simultaneously, which would not only drive the average bet amount per hand played up, but could also be used to have a reasonable probability of getting ahead with an early martingale, then just going Banker/Player and eating the commissions (when Banker wins) thereby guaranteeing a profitable session if you can get ahead in the first place.

2.) In fairness, the terms should have been better stated initially.

3.) MDawg only stood to gain credibility from this, regardless of the final result. Not only would the guaranteed 1k (and possibly 2k on a winning session) more than cover the -EV of the actual playing, but also, even if MDawg had lost---he's still there playing at a particular average bet, he's still drawing on the marker, so everything becomes legitimized as far as those claims go.

And, as we know, one losing session doesn't serve to prove or disprove anything about previous reporting.

I guess Wizard was also to verify that MDawg was ahead for the trip? More credibility. It seems that allowing the individual hand results to be listed with maybe the exception of what side was bet is a fair concession.

4.) Without listing the sides, it's just bet amount and W/L/Push. It seems that MDawg pays his accumulated commissions at the end of his play, so Wizard could just subtract the commissions from the final tally. The amounts bet per hand could be reported, but whether the bets were on Banker or Player would be unknown.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Expectedvalue
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April 11th, 2021 at 8:25:22 PM permalink
Lol mission. Well said but can you tell the forum what in the world what bet he chose would be a secret. Each shoe is different it would have no bearing . It would only serve to help with commissions. This was my exact point. What if dawg bets 10 hands on banker . Wins 5 loses 5. The dealer messes up the commission. Which if anyone has played baccarat for any amount of time . Happens. Maybe he accident maybe on purpose because the dawg is a big tipper as he says. The bets are needs to verify the results .cmon people this is bet protection by me 101, it would not help at all to determine the dawgs system. Edge, voodoo or whatveee it actually is.
Wizard
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April 11th, 2021 at 8:30:08 PM permalink
I'll give it another 24 hours to see if the challenge can be resurrected, otherwise I will explain how I would have played it in Mdawg's shoes. Before the challenge was called off, EV asked me to not post said strategy.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Mission146
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April 11th, 2021 at 8:32:18 PM permalink
I also saw that reverse ratholing was mentioned as a possibility. You wouldn't even have to add it to your stack, just do it as a dealer hand in toke.

I don't think MDawg would actually try to pull a stunt like that, but listing the individual bets would be good for transparency. Even on a half hour for a shoe, that's what, twenty seconds per hand to write down the bet amount and result?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Expectedvalue
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April 11th, 2021 at 8:33:07 PM permalink
Wizard you are misrepresenting and misinterpreting my intent. I wanted him to show his Normal play. Not vow to win a measly 2k based on what he claims to bet. It is so blantantly obvious records were needed to avoid collusion and the like and the fact that you don’t see it really gives me pause to do anything .
TomG
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April 11th, 2021 at 9:00:34 PM permalink
Quote: Expectedvalue

To add one more thing. When mdawg I. His reports say something to the effect of. I was salivating over how obvious this next hand for the player was. It’s demeaning to everyone on the forum as far as common sense. You either have some way to beat the house or you don’t. Voodoo does not work



It seems like a certainty that he is able to identify when either player or banker have a much higher than 50% chance of winning. If there is any doubt to that, than what other explanation is there for being able to consistently average a profit of $5,000 to $10,000 per hour?
AxelWolf
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April 11th, 2021 at 9:02:21 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I'll give it another 24 hours to see if the challenge can be resurrected, otherwise I will explain how I would have played it in Mdawg's shoes. Before the challenge was called off, EV asked me to not post said strategy.

People are not paying attention to what was being offered here. IT WAS NOT TO ATTEMPT TO WIN THE BET/CHALLENGE WITH THE BEST CHANCE OF WINNING. It was for Mdawg to play NORMALLY AS HE NORMALLY WOULD. I dont see why people are not getting that aspect of this?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MDawg
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April 11th, 2021 at 9:05:24 PM permalink
Day 21 play

Who says the number FOUR is unlucky?

Played just 1 1/2 shoes. First shoe, I really should have won a lot more as it was streaking nicely, but every time I tried to jack the bet to around 2000 I'd lose - second Bank or second Player just wouldn't drop on that particular row! Ended the shoe up about +3000.

This was around shift change and as the other pit boss left pit boss shook my hand and declared, "Just want to say that it is good to have a nice player like you in the casino." Why not? I win, I have fun, I tip the dealers, I sprinkle Lincolns and Hamiltons among the servers, a good time is had by all.

Second shoe I was doing all right, and then again, started to dump on some of the larger hands until I was -2500. I reasoned that Bank was due, and gradually sprinkled all my chips but a few blacks onto Bank - 5500 in all. I drew two face cards, zero, and Player drew a four. Mandatory two card draw. As mine was pushed towards me I declared, "I need a nine!" and sure enough, there it was! four sides with the dot in the middle and Boom! I tossed it out there. The new pit boss just shook her head and smiled - obviously this was a hand they had to record as it was my high bet for the session. Dealer drew - I think it was a face - I didn't pay much attention, as I knew I had it. That put me back at +3000 and change.

Rest of the shoe I really didn't play right. It was streaking up and down Bank / Player side by side runs but I wasn't betting enough. I could have cleaned up majorly. After about the middle of the shoe the runs shortened and the shoe seemed like it was on the verge of getting random, so I colored up, paid off the 8K marker, and walked with +4425. Ole!
Last edited by: MDawg on Apr 11, 2021
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
MDawg
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April 11th, 2021 at 9:24:32 PM permalink
Based on something I read elsewhere, last night I watched FIVE CARD STUD (1968). I didn't even approach my wife with watching it with me, as I suspected that she wouldn't be into it, so I just watched it on one of the couches in the suite living room on my MacBook Pro. I found it free on the 'net.

It is one of those "flawed, has (good) moments" movies. It is basically a murder mystery WhoDunnit which just happens to also be a Western, where the murderer is revealed only near the end. Gambling is only tangentially related to the movie, but if you're into poker, it might get you to start thinking about that most purist form of the game - five card stud. Dean Martin is in it and sings the movie theme song. Also Robert Mitchum. The best, at least the most versatile acting in it comes from Roddy McDowell.

Worth watching, although I found myself counting down the video timer near the end, which is the antithesis of a great movie where you don't want it to end at all.


A much better true gambling related older film would be Bob Flambeur. I speak French pretty fluently, but the movie is also available with subtitles. I won't give away the plot. Just watch it. C'est fantastique.

Moi, je suis flambeur!
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
darkoz
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April 11th, 2021 at 9:34:38 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

It seems like a certainty that he is able to identify when either player or banker have a much higher than 50% chance of winning. If there is any doubt to that, than what other explanation is there for being able to consistently average a profit of $5,000 to $10,000 per hour?



So you are suggesting he is psychic?.

Or he has some mechanical means that is an AP play (or cheating)?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
sabre
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April 11th, 2021 at 9:53:10 PM permalink
Congrats on your 55th consecutive win.
MDawg
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April 11th, 2021 at 9:56:03 PM permalink
I've already moved on. I spent more time writing up my review of FIVE CARD STUD than I did thinking about ExpectedValue. I will be returning him to BLOCKED Status. I was still willing to give him a chance to redeem himself up until I saw some of his posts this evening. The way he is trying to play this out is inelegant to the max.

Guy is talking about what he wanted to do. If he were on his game he would have stated everything up front in writing, even if he doesn't know what the parole evidence rule is, he should at least know that we're not mind readers and what he wanted to propose is irrelevant - what he wrote down as proposed is all that matters.

Wizard should have just declared that a contract had already been finalized, money had changed hands and moved forward with the challenge. Specific performance. Since the contract was breached, ExpectedValue should offer up something equivalent to liquidated damages, in good faith. If he doesn't, it is up to Wizard to decide ExpectValue's fate at WOV.

I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
Expectedvalue
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April 11th, 2021 at 10:00:01 PM permalink
Does anyone at al read these posts, banker was due. Dealer shook his hand during COVID. The claims are getting more outrageous streak this and streak that. This forum is supposed to be math based yet the most prolific claimer in here post about. Streaks hocus pocus and what not. Even wizards rag line if it’s not whether you win or loose it’s the good bet that counts. Has mdawg ever had the best of it except with my donation? Axel was spot on with my point behind the challenge. To observe the dawg in his so called pound.
ChumpChange
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April 11th, 2021 at 10:08:13 PM permalink
He must be counting cards if he thinks he's gonna draw the last 9 in the shoe.
MDawg
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April 11th, 2021 at 11:10:18 PM permalink
Quote: Expectedvalue

Does anyone at al read these posts, banker was due. Dealer shook his hand during COVID. The claims are getting more outrageous streak this and streak that. This forum is supposed to be math based yet the most prolific claimer in here post about. Streaks hocus pocus and what not. Even wizards rag line if it’s not whether you win or loose it’s the good bet that counts. Has mdawg ever had the best of it except with my donation? Axel was spot on with my point behind the challenge. To observe the dawg in his so called pound.





I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
AxelWolf
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April 12th, 2021 at 12:16:17 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg



I responded to who we all know is B79 regarding that post. How can anyone take that dude seriously considering his history on this forum? And how sad it looks for you know this is one of your supporters. <<< That makes absolute total sense, however.

I knew this challenge would never happen(I said it way back when). How did I know that?... History. I knew you would figure out what terms were important to the challenger, and then you would make sure you didn't agree to those terms with a bunch of Gobbledygook and excuses, i.e. how the Wizard couldn't possibly keep track......blah blah blah.

You, your Buddy Coach Belly, and MC monitor the forumS 24/7. You guys jumped into action ASAP ganging up on this like a pack of hyenas. You ended up twisting everything while trying to game the situation and backed the challenger into a corner(you pretended not to read the other thread). It was obvious what his intent was for the offer. deja vu all over again...

So still, years have gone by with soo many outrageous ridiculous claims and you still haven't managed to meet up with anyone or prove ANYTHING to ANYONE legit on the forums.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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