Pennsylvania casino sold to Alabama tribe
1.3 Billion price tag might be an inducement but I still think its a very low priced for the 2008 abandoned industrial site that now has a casino, a hotel and a shopping center and is making money.
Quote: GWAESo does that mean they can turn it into sovereign land as well? Or is this just them owning a business on US soil?
I highly doubt they can make it tribal land anymore than Canada could buy a curling rink and make it Canadian land.
IIRC PA is one of the few states where the Indians were compensated for all their land. I have even seen one of the treaties/deeds.
Quote: GWAESo does that mean they can turn it into sovereign land as well? Or is this just them owning a business on US soil?
The latter
Pennsylvanias mohegan sun in the Poconos is an Indian owned casino on US soil and subject to US law (it was formerly pocono downs i believe and purchased a few years ago by mohegan sun)
Im certain same would apply here
Yes, California and a few other states have had issues involving tribes too far from good roads but who nevertheless want to own a casino; it usually involves exchanging lands or having the Interior Dept declare new lands in the tribal registry. A lot of battles are tribe versus tribe these days.Quote: GWAEI figured that was the case but I thought I remembered reading in certain States they had purchased land and tried to make it foreign soil. I think it either happened or they tried to make it happen in San Diego.
In Pennsylvania its simply ownership, no sovereignty issues at all. State of Pennsylvania laws all the way, indeed probably no advertising or mention of tribal involvement with the casino. Just a money making venture a good deal more profitable than selling beads or moccasins or collecting rent on homes.
Quote: TigerWuSo do Indian casinos suck everywhere or is it just here in Oklahoma?
IMO, everywhere, with a few exceptions. Hard Rock Hollywood (Ft Lauderdale FL) is one.
HR Tampa, though run by the same tribe, is not, in fact is the biggest NA suckage anywhere. Again IMO. I don't doubt there are worse, just haven't played many NA in the West.
I also liked Morango, near Palm Springs CA, and Thunder Valley, near Sacramento, a lot, but only got to got to either a couple times.
Quote: TigerWuSo do Indian casinos suck everywhere or is it just here in Oklahoma?
I've only been to two: Turning Stone and Mohegan Sun. Turning Stone is one of our favorite places to stay. Great food options and one of the best layouts of any casino I've been in. A very class act IMHO. Mohegan is not bad. We've been twice and both times had a good time. Staff was very friendly and helpful. Overall I rank it higher than a lot of non-Indian places (e.g., all the AC Boardwalk places). So maybe it is just the Indian places west of the Mississippi and south of the Mason Dixon Line that suck.
Quote: TumblingBonesI've only been to two: Turning Stone and Mohegan Sun. Turning Stone is one of our favorite places to stay. Great food options and one of the best layouts of any casino I've been in. A very class act IMHO. Mohegan is not bad. We've been twice and both times had a good time. Staff was very friendly and helpful. Overall I rank it higher than a lot of non-Indian places (e.g., all the AC Boardwalk places). So maybe it is just the Indian places west of the Mississippi and south of the Mason Dixon Line that suck.
Its always a good idea to sell when things are great! Lets hope the buyer doesnt get stuck holding the bag.... then again... who really cares. There is supposedly a new casino coming to Philly near the stadiums (Parx is part owner and Maryland Live, I believe). This casino will blow it out of the water if they make it more upscale than the frikin sugarhood and harrahs chester. Right off of I95 and next to the sports stadiums in a gambling city with NJ and NY customers! OMG.. this may become the top grossing casino in the country. I cant wait. If they get sports betting too.... forgetaboutit!
Quote: TumblingBonesMohegan is not bad.
Oh, yeah, I always forget Mohegan and Foxwoods are Indian, and they seem to be pretty good.
Now that I think about it, I think the main problem with Oklahoman casinos just has to do with our horribly stupid and archaic state laws regarding gambling, and not the Indian aspect.
Quote: WatchMeWinThis casino will blow it out of the water if they make it more upscale than the frikin Sugarhood...
(Emphasis Added)
That was a good one, though I must admit I really like the casino aside from the location. Why do they need to swipe your players card for free beer at the bars, any idea? They don't really seem to care about your action and I don't believe they swipe it on the floor.
Anyway, I like the color scheme, the service seems pretty good there (imo), Hugo's is decent, the food court isn't bad. Plenty of room in the parking garage. What's there not to like about SugarHouse itself?
Quote: TigerWu
Now that I think about it, I think the main problem with Oklahoman casinos just has to do with our horribly stupid and archaic state laws regarding gambling, and not the Indian aspect.
The revenue distribution with the state, (effectively a tax, except they are not part of the state) also plays a factor. Tribal casinos are not compelled to pay any fees t the state for Class II games whereas Class III games have fees paid based on a sliding upward scale:
$1-$10,000,000---4%
$10,000,001-$20,000,000---5%
$20,000,001+---6%
Which encourages the use of Class II Electronic-Bingo devices, of course, especially for comparably high-returning games such as Video Poker. Not only do the hands not need to (and, indeed don't) correspond to the true probabilities, but the casinos also do not need to pay a fee on the Class II devices.
I'm not sure of the exact percentage, but I do know that the majority of overall machines in Oklahoma are Class III machines.
Quote: GWAESo does that mean they can turn it into sovereign land as well? Or is this just them owning a business on US soil?
Sovereignty is an entirely different chestnut. You can have a case of a tribal casino on tribal land, as it is with the Senecas in Buffalo and Niagara Falls, but there was a separate fight for the land status. Simply building an "Indian business" on English land does not make said land suddenly "Indian Country". Seneca Niagara Falls parking garage and exterior businesses are on "English land", despite their connection to the casino, which IS on tribal land.
It gets confusing, especially as we have the only rez with an English city inside it. But rest easy knowing all of this matters to but a few folks behind the scenes moving money around. You cut up in my joint and you were being escorted by English 5-0 to an English jail to await English court. No surprises.
Do they have hot or cold tables?Quote: WatchMeWinIts always a good idea to sell when things are great! Lets hope the buyer doesnt get stuck holding the bag.... then again... who really cares. There is supposedly a new casino coming to Philly near the stadiums (Parx is part owner and Maryland Live, I believe). This casino will blow it out of the water if they make it more upscale than the frikin sugarhood and harrahs chester. Right off of I95 and next to the sports stadiums in a gambling city with NJ and NY customers! OMG.. this may become the top grossing casino in the country. I cant wait. If they get sports betting too.... forgetaboutit!
Why don't you set up some online sports accounts and amass a fortune?
Quote: Mission146Quote: WatchMeWinThis casino will blow it out of the water if they make it more upscale than the frikin Sugarhood...
(Emphasis Added)
That was a good one, though I must admit I really like the casino aside from the location. Why do they need to swipe your players card for free beer at the bars, any idea? They don't really seem to care about your action and I don't believe they swipe it on the floor.
Anyway, I like the color scheme, the service seems pretty good there (imo), Hugo's is decent, the food court isn't bad. Plenty of room in the parking garage. What's there not to like about SugarHouse itself?
Whats not to like? Maybe the fact that they shuffled up on me every round until i left. I told them they couldnt do that because they are manipulating the odds, which is illegal. They disagreed and said thats the only thing they can do to people like me. So i guess trespasses and backoffs are illegal in PA. Good to know. Not to mention of course, theyre also playing with fire by shuffling every round. They can get sued for that if someone takes it up on them. Shuffling every round manipulates the odds to the casinos advantage which is clearly illegal.
Quote: ZenKinG
Whats not to like? Maybe the fact that they shuffled up on me every round until i left. I told them they couldnt do that because they are manipulating the odds, which is illegal. They disagreed and said thats the only thing they can do to people like me. So i guess trespasses and backoffs are illegal in PA. Good to know. Not to mention of course, theyre also playing with fire by shuffling every round. They can get sued for that if someone takes it up on them. Shuffling every round manipulates the odds to the casinos advantage which is clearly illegal.
Trespasses are certainly NOT illegal in PA as I am persona non grata at one casino and previously was at another.
As far as shuffling up, Id have to look at the gaming code to determine whether or not they can do that. Im honestly not sure, but I dont see how it would manipulate the odds...just returns the game to, Off the top, Odds...unless theyre doing it selectively. If theyre always doing it, dont see why that wouldnt be allowed.
As a counter, youd know more about that than I do. The only thing I can say with authority is that trespasses are definitely not illegal in PA.
Quote: Mission146Trespasses are certainly NOT illegal in PA as I am persona non grata at one casino and previously was at another.
As far as shuffling up, Id have to look at the gaming code to determine whether or not they can do that. Im honestly not sure, but I dont see how it would manipulate the odds...just returns the game to, Off the top, Odds...unless theyre doing it selectively. If theyre always doing it, dont see why that wouldnt be allowed.
As a counter, youd know more about that than I do. The only thing I can say with authority is that trespasses are definitely not illegal in PA.
I was trespassed only once in PA but through the mail at Mt Airy in the Poconos. Im saying maybe it is illegal but that doesnt stop the casinos from bluffing you just like in Vegas
Quote: ZenKinGI was trespassed only once in PA but through the mail at Mt Airy in the Poconos. Im saying maybe it is illegal but that doesnt stop the casinos from bluffing you just like in Vegas
Feel free to PM me for details, but Im 100% sure its legal. Further, I dont think theyd create a written record (mail) of an illegal act.
Quote: Mission146Feel free to PM me for details, but Im 100% sure its legal. Further, I dont think theyd create a written record (mail) of an illegal act.
Then idk why SugarHouse told me what they told me. Just another day surrounded by misinformed or pathological liars in black suits
Quote: ZenKinGThen idk why SugarHouse told me what they told me. Just another day surrounded by misinformed or pathological liars in black suits
I dont know about liars so much, in terms of intent, but Ill stipulate that a simple majority of casino employees Ive encountered are willing to talk out of their asses.
Quote: Mission146Quote: WatchMeWinThis casino will blow it out of the water if they make it more upscale than the frikin Sugarhood...
(Emphasis Added)
That was a good one, though I must admit I really like the casino aside from the location. Why do they need to swipe your players card for free beer at the bars, any idea? They don't really seem to care about your action and I don't believe they swipe it on the floor.
Anyway, I like the color scheme, the service seems pretty good there (imo), Hugo's is decent, the food court isn't bad. Plenty of room in the parking garage. What's there not to like about SugarHouse itself?
- Why do they need to swipe your players card for free beer at the bars, any idea? They probably take out comp points from the card. If not, then they just want to know who is playing there and monitor what they have given out for when they do have to add comp points.... and deduct it retro.
- Hugo's is decent, the food court isn't bad. Plenty of room in the parking garage. What's there not to like about SugarHouse itself? Hugos has a nice ambience but food is so so. Food court is ok. The pizza is awesome but you have to order a full pie and wait (small or large). The cheesesteaks and Genos are horrible. If you want to see a great food court.. go to the borgata. As far as what is there not to like about the SH... I like the staff, but the fact that the talbes are always jam packed and the games are slooowww .. it is all hops and props and yelling and angry screaming and bitc%%%ing. They should have 4 games open at all times. Im sure they would all be filled still.
Quote: AxelWolfDo they have hot or cold tables?
Why don't you set up some online sports accounts and amass a fortune?
- Do they have hot or cold tables? Dumb question as the casino has not even opened yet. Silly rabbit, trix are for kids.
- Why don't you set up some online sports accounts and amass a fortune? Again, dumb comment, they haven't opened yet, but when they do, I certainly will give it a go. You escaped losing a few g's by chickening out of a couple of my winning wagers. Bok Bok Bok !
Do you really think I was being serious about hot or cold tables?Quote: WatchMeWin- Do they have hot or cold tables? Dumb question as the casino has not even opened yet. Silly rabbit, trix are for kids.
- Why don't you set up some online sports accounts and amass a fortune? Again, dumb comment, they haven't opened yet, but when they do, I certainly will give it a go. You escaped losing a few g's by chickening out of a couple of my winning wagers. Bok Bok Bok !
I was talking about offshore sports accounts like 5dimes and other online sports accounts. Most of the pro sports bettors have online sports accounts.
Yes, I'm chicken (or smart) because of the fact that you won't ESCROW SOME MONEY.
Quote: WatchMeWinThey probably take out comp points from the card. If not, then they just want to know who is playing there and monitor what they have given out for when they do have to add comp points.... and deduct it retro.
But, it's free on the floor with no points deducted? That's a penis move, bro!
I'm afraid I can't speak to whether or not points were actually deducted. I certainly had points, but was only there a few times and never paid attention to what the points were doing or not doing.
Quote:Hugos has a nice ambience but food is so so. Food court is ok. The pizza is awesome but you have to order a full pie and wait (small or large). The cheesesteaks and Genos are horrible. If you want to see a great food court.. go to the borgata. As far as what is there not to like about the SH... I like the staff, but the fact that the talbes are always jam packed and the games are slooowww .. it is all hops and props and yelling and angry screaming and bitc%%%ing. They should have 4 games open at all times. Im sure they would all be filled still.
I liked the food, but that's subjective, of course, and I only ever ate there once. Is the high-roller food room, whatever it's called, Hugo's food? If so, I ate at Hugo's twice, liked it both times.
I agree with your opinion of the pizza and I had a cheesesteak and thought it was neither good or bad. I'm not from the area, so your standards for a cheesesteak are almost definitely higher than mine.
Borgata is awesome...well, the food court. Aside from that, aesthetically pleasing, but otherwise sucks. Not my style. I loved the Borgata Po' Boy sandwich!
I never played tables at SugarHouse, but they have always looked very busy.
Quote: AxelWolfDo you really think I was being serious about hot or cold tables?
I was talking about offshore sports accounts like 5dimes and other online sports accounts. Most of the pro sports bettors have online sports accounts.
Yes, I'm chicken (or smart) because of the fact that you won't ESCROW SOME MONEY.
When did I ever say I was a professional sports bettor? Never. I just said that Im very good at it.
Quote: Mission146
Borgata is awesome...well, the food court. Aside from that, aesthetically pleasing, but otherwise sucks. Not my style. I loved the Borgata Po' Boy sandwich!
Can't stand their food court since they re-modelled. The food is OK but the acoustics are horrible. Even when its mostly empty it sucks. The slightest sound gets amplified and echoed.
Quote: TumblingBonesCan't stand their food court since they re-modelled. The food is OK but the acoustics are horrible. Even when its mostly empty it sucks. The slightest sound gets amplified and echoed.
Do you know when that was? I believe I've either never been there since they remodeled, or I've never been there before they remodeled...but I don't know which one it is. I'm pretty sure it has always looked the same anytime I have been there.
I agree that it is hard to hear anyone talk in there. I think another problem is that it is not really separated enough from the casino floor. Of course, it is a relatively small place, in terms of square footage downstairs.
A casino can be Indian owned but not on reservation land or trust fund land.
Some Indian tribes are sharp financially and politically, some are warring cliques. One tribe even had two brothers born nine minutes apart. The brother who remained loyal to the group in power remained a member of the tribe, the brother who joined the opposition group that tried to unseat the chief and seize the casino was disenrolled as a member of tribe. Tribal membership is solely the province of the tribe and can not be contested in any federal or state court.
And please do not ever think that the "tribe" in Connecticut ever really existed: it was the creation of lawyers who hired genealogists and rounded up local Indians and created a tribe just to get the gambling going.
Get stopped on one major highway north of Seattle and an alcohol violation means a White goes to White Man's Court if he is intoxicated, but if there is ANY alcohol in the vehicle, an Indian goes to Tribal Court even if he tests 0.00. If he tests 0.01 an Indian is legally drunk if he is on the reservation.
Laws are strange and money distorts them even more than they usually are.
Quote: odiousgambitthey actually still say "English" and not "US" or "Federal"?
"They" as in Natives? Lol, no. That was nothing more than me being a bit intox and falling into Amish-speak. Sorry =p
Quote: FleaStiff
And please do not ever think that the "tribe" in Connecticut ever really existed: it was the creation of lawyers who hired genealogists and rounded up local Indians and created a tribe just to get the gambling going.
Actually both tribes have a long history. Read up on the history of thePequot War of 1636 or (even better) dust off "Last of the Mohicans" from your high school English summer reading list.
According to that Wikipedia snippet the long history began in 1983 and gambling began in 1986.
Now if you think the Indians paid all those lobbyist fees and legal fees... well you know what they say about a bridge in Brooklyn.
It seems to me that shuffling up after every hand changes the game in that it prevents the odds from changing.Quote: Mission146...As far as shuffling up, Id have to look at the gaming code to determine whether or not they can do that. Im honestly not sure, but I dont see how it would manipulate the odds...just returns the game to, Off the top, Odds...unless theyre doing it selectively. If theyre always doing it, dont see why that wouldnt be allowed.
But then the question would be, do the regulations give the casino the option to shuffle up whenever they want?
Quote: TigerWuOh, yeah, I always forget Mohegan and Foxwoods are Indian, and they seem to be pretty good.
Now that I think about it, I think the main problem with Oklahoman casinos just has to do with our horribly stupid and archaic state laws regarding gambling, and not the Indian aspect.
We have some great Indian casinos in California. As fancy as anything on the Strip, some with some very good gambling, and benefits. And food.
Quote: AZDuffmanI highly doubt they can make it tribal land anymore than Canada could buy a curling rink and make it Canadian land.
IIRC PA is one of the few states where the Indians were compensated for all their land. I have even seen one of the treaties/deeds.
I've always found it messed up that European settlers came to America and forced people already living there to move from their homes. Especially since the Native Americans helped the European settlers to survive by giving them food(First Thanksgiving) and taught them how to fend for themselves.
I'm not certain such events actually took place. All migrations involve displacement of existing populations via crowding, disease, land-use, etc.Quote: Nathan. Especially since the Native Americans helped the European settlers to survive by giving them food(First Thanksgiving) and taught them how to fend for themselves.
Quote: FleaStiffAccording to that Wikipedia snippet the long history began in 1983 and gambling began in 1986.
Now if you think the Indians paid all those lobbyist fees and legal fees... well you know what they say about a bridge in Brooklyn.
Not sure which Wikipedia article you're looking at. The one I'm reading (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pequot) states that
and that
I'm not disagreeing that they probably had business partners and backers but so what? That's the nature of the game. Adelson, Wynn, Trump, Ho and every other casino operator has had partners and backers at various times in their careers.
You should read without reservations by Jeff Benedict.Quote: TumblingBonesNot sure which Wikipedia article you're looking at. The one I'm reading (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pequot) states that
... evidence now available demonstrates that the Pequot were not invaders to the Connecticut River Valley but were indigenous in that area for thousands of years.[9] By the time of the founding of Plymouth and Massachusetts Bay colonies, the Pequot had already attained a position of political, military, and economic dominance in what is now central and eastern Connecticut.
and that... the Mashantucket Pequot Reservation, where many members of the nation continue to live .. is one of the oldest, continuously occupied Indian reservations in North America.
I'm not disagreeing that they probably had business partners and backers but so what? That's the nature of the game. Adelson, Wynn, Trump, Ho and every other casino operator has had partners and backers at various times in their careers.
The Pequot reservation was essentially non existent after the 1920s or 30s.
It was a scam that the Peqouts received federal recognition.
Some of their so called tribal members were actually of African American heritage who were living on the old tribal grounds,or who had been living in the ghettos of Providence Rhode Island .
Anyone can edit Wikipedia so I would take what you read there as suspect since the tribe probably edits it.
The tribe and reservation may have existed in the hearts and minds or residents in the area but the federal recognition was a lawyer and lobbyist driven act fomented by investors who had studied gaming laws. I'm told the sponsor was an "Overseas Chinese" which means, in China, an ethnically Chinese person who lives in a foreign land (such as Malaya).
Partners, front men, investors, ... terminology gets confusing, overlapping and eventually without much significance.
In his book Without Reservation: The Making of America's Most Powerful Indian Tribe and Foxwoods the World's Largest Casino (2001), Jeff Benedict suggested that the Mashantuckets were not descended from the historical Pequot tribe, but rather from the Narragansett tribe.[17] The Pequots denounced the book. They asserted in public debates that Benedict's genealogical research was inherently flawed, as it failed to reflect the correct descendant lineages for the Mashantucket Pequot people identified on the 1900 and 1910 US Censuses. Dr. Laurence Hauptman, a State University of New York Distinguished Professor of History and specialist in Native American history, disputed many aspects of Benedict's work. He argued with Benedict's assertions on the genealogy of current members.[4] The anthropologist Katherine A. Spilde also criticized Benedict's book.[23]
I followed up on the Hauptman reference (you can find it at https://web.archive.org/web/20081012032535/http://www.indiangaming.org/library/articles/novel-attack.shtml). It is extremely detailed (e.g., citing Civil War pension records) but the gist is that Hauptman views Benedict's "research is skimpy at best, showing little knowledge of many primary and secondary sources" and that he is " ill-informed about Native Americans, about American and Connecticut history, and even about law, his chosen profession". Benedict's goal seems to be selling books, not presenting the facts.
Quote: BryceLarperThe sale has been in the works for a while now and its pretty obvious that the current ownership group is milking slot players extremely hard on their way out the door. Been here several times and every time it seemed like everyone on the floor was getting torched. All denominations are comically tight
nah it has always been tight all around im there more frequently than most. come to think of it the slot giveaways happen so frequently that its almost odd when you dont hear them sometimes
Looks like Mount Airy might get a wave of new players!
Quote: BedWetterBetterSands is one of the tightest Casinos on the East coast already. Can't imagine it would get better with a Tribe owning them!
Looks like Mount Airy might get a wave of new players!
on average they make about 15-20 million a month in profit from table games i just took a look and thats being conservative
