tgparker
tgparker
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December 5th, 2016 at 8:32:53 PM permalink
Well, the main reason I joined this forum was that I was conned out of $97 for an extremely dubious "system" by a so-called craps "expert" on the way to being conned out of an additional $500.00 for even more dubious classes.

Luckily, I neither gambled with his "system" nor went for the socalled $500 "private lesson".

Blessing in disuise, I decided that I had better get as much advice and information as I can and find and connect with the "right" people before I spend any more money and or start playing craps without being properly trained or taught.

So I'm joining this and other forums and and investing in some recommended basic books on craps which ALL cost a lot less than the $97.

Anyway I do have some general questions that I'd like to put out there to the community...

1.) I am located in Mid-Hudson Valley mid-upstate NY and I'd appreciate some advice re: casinos that host real craps tables that are reasonably near to where I'm located. My brief search revealed a multitude of "Racinos" hosting electronic crap games which I figure are a waste of time and money.

2.) Are there any face to face Craps, clubs, groups, or crews, etc...(For practice and education and training, and going to casinos as a crew or team, NOtillegal gambling!) that I could hook up with in my area?

3.) For practice and education and training, I've purchased Win-Crap which looks like a good training tool. I've also located some free and paid on-line craps web-sites and I'm eager to hear what the consensus is about on-line craps.

4.) I've also noticed a lot of discussion about Dice Control and the need for alot training and practice.

Can anyone suggest a good practice DC rig? I'm a fairly handy carpenter, so I'm interested in blueprints, DIY kits, or portable knock-down easily assembled units.

5.) Lastly I'm open to any suggestions for any DVD and on-line courses for both Craps betting, money management, and DC.

Wishing you all the best and I look forward to getting to know some of you and hopefully meeting up with you all at a casino somewhere...

TG
Last edited by: tgparker on Dec 5, 2016
MrV
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December 5th, 2016 at 9:27:42 PM permalink
Forget dice control.

It isn't real.

There are no craps clubs.

Buy John Patrick's book, either "Craps" or "Advanced Craps;" he's a clown, but there is some good stuff in the books.
"What, me worry?"
beachbumbabs
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December 5th, 2016 at 10:10:40 PM permalink
Hi, tg, and welcome to the forum!

Dice control is mostly an expensive mythical beast. The rest of what you're talking about seems like a good approach to the game. I'm a big fan of learning the game before playing it live.

A few things to keep in mind. (Gleaned from past threads here, I am not an expert.)

1. Every bet on the table has a house edge against you. There is no combination of bets that will change that. Trying to do that anyway is a key component of most if not all craps systems. There are no known craps systems that work.

2. The best bets on the table are also the most boring. The exciting ones are the worst edge against you. Most of those are located in the middle of the table. The dealers are also usually trained to suggest you play those bets. Surprise, surprise.

3. I'll reserve this for when we know more about you.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Mission146
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December 5th, 2016 at 10:37:50 PM permalink
Quote: tgparker

Well, the main reason I joined this forum was that I was conned out of $97 for an extremely dubious "system" by a so-called craps "expert" on the way to being conned out of an additional $500.00 for even more dubious classes.

Luckily, I neither gambled with his "system" nor went for the socalled $500 "private lesson".



The only time that guy has ever made money on Craps, I would suggest, is when he gets someone to buy his system.

Quote:

1.) I am located in Mid-Hudson Valley mid-upstate NY and I'd appreciate some advice re: casinos that host real craps tables that are reasonably near to where I'm located. My brief search revealed a multitude of "Racinos" hosting electronic crap games which I figure are a waste of time and money.



The Electronic Craps games are no more a waste of time and money than anything else as long as you find them enjoyable. Furthermore, E-Craps, also referred to as, 'Bubble Craps,' often has lower minimum bets than a live Craps game, so if you don't want to bet too much, those might work for you.

I don't know anything about where you're from or what possible towns that could refer to. When I put in, 'Hudson Valley,' without any other information, it looks like Mount Airy Resort & Casino as well as Mohegan Sun Poconos, both at roughly 2.5 hours, might be the two closest casinos to you that would have a live craps game.

Quote:

2.) Are there any face to face Craps, clubs, groups, or crews, etc... that I could hook up with in my area?



Other than a general description, 'Hudson Valley,' I don't know what your area is. Furthermore, if anyone were housing a live Craps game in the State of New York, other than in an Indian casino (such as Akwesasne Mohawk Casino Resort) then that would be an illegal game if there is a house rake, and I doubt they do much in the way of traditional advertising.

Quote:

3.) For practice and education and training, I've purchased Win-Crap which looks like a good training tool. I've also located some free and paid on-line craps web-sites and I'm eager to hear what the consensus is about on-line craps.



There is a free Craps game on WizardofOdds.com and many online gambling sites offer free games as well as games for Real Money.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
tgparker
tgparker
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December 5th, 2016 at 11:13:02 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Other than a general description, 'Hudson Valley,' I don't know what your area is. Furthermore, if anyone were housing a live Craps game in the State of New York, other than in an Indian casino (such as Akwesasne Mohawk Casino Resort) then that would be an illegal game if there is a house rake, and I doubt they do much in the way of traditional advertising.



Sorry, I wasn't clear,,, what I meant was..

Are there any face to face Craps, clubs, groups, teams, or crews, etc...(For practice, education, training, and for going to Casinos as a crew or team, NOT for illegal gambling!) that I could hook up with in my area?

Mid-Hudson Valley means along the Hudson River - 100 miles North of New York City, NY 60 miles South of Albany, NY.
Last edited by: tgparker on Dec 6, 2016
DeMango
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December 6th, 2016 at 1:10:13 AM permalink
Looks like you have to travel at least 100 miles in all directions to find a real craps tabe. Turning Stone to the west. Foxwoods to the east. Atlantic City to the south, Akwesasne to the north.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
OnceDear
OnceDear
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December 6th, 2016 at 2:06:52 AM permalink
Quote: tgparker

Are there any face to face Craps, clubs, groups, teams, or crews, etc...(For practice, education, training, and for going to Casinos as a crew or team, NOT for illegal gambling!) that I could hook up with in my area?



Hi again TG,

From your various posts, i get the impression that you expect to find 'something' that will help you to win. That 'something' might be 'practice', it might be 'team play' or it might be a system.

Let me save you some time and money:-

Craps is an amusing game where you can lose money in a fun way. You can win money if you have good luck, just as you can win money on a coin toss, but for every visit to the table, you pit your wagers against a real and permanent house edge. Some bets have a higher house edge than others, but the edge is always there.

NO system, no money management strategy, no betting strategy can do anything to overcome that house edge. Most here would say that no amount of practice or lessons would overcome that house edge either.

So play for fun. Expect to pay a price for that fun. Don't expect to earn a profit from it.

Nothing wrong with recreational play.

Everything wrong with systems.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
odiousgambit
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December 6th, 2016 at 2:34:47 AM permalink
Find casino locations with http://www.americancasinoguide.com/

I find google hard to use for that search because "casino" will bring up things like bars. That site will also tell you what kind of games there are, and give you the website link too.

Beware of advice not only from someone trying to make a buck, but also from other players generally, and that from the dealers can be some of the worst. Some of the books are terrible too; to some degree your own discretion needs to be good. You might wonder what the value is of getting advice from 'some dude on the internet' like me too - well, if you start at Wizardofodds.com you won't have to worry about the quality of advice. Unfortunately anymore you have to wade through a lot of marketing there, but it is worth it since it was originated by mucho respected Michael Shackleford. The gambling strategies and advice are still all written by him; you can't say that about all the come-ons for internet gambling sites there though.

As for advice here at this site, much of it will be good, but especially when it comes to Craps some advice by some members here will be awful. I'd go to Wizard of Odds dot com and specifically to an old page that is hard to find there - see below - and get the straight stuff from the most respected site on gambling on the internet.

https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/basics/
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
FatGeezus
FatGeezus
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December 6th, 2016 at 9:00:55 AM permalink
Here is another site that lists casinos in the USA.

http://us.casinocity.com/
billryan
billryan
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December 6th, 2016 at 9:06:49 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

Hi again TG,

From your various posts, i get the impression that you expect to find 'something' that will help you to win. That 'something' might be 'practice', it might be 'team play' or it might be a system.

Let me save you some time and money:-

Craps is an amusing game where you can lose money in a fun way. You can win money if you have good luck, just as you can win money on a coin toss, but for every visit to the table, you pit your wagers against a real and permanent house edge. Some bets have a higher house edge than others, but the edge is always there.

NO system, no money management strategy, no betting strategy can do anything to overcome that house edge. Most here would say that no amount of practice or lessons would overcome that house edge either.

So play for fun. Expect to pay a price for that fun. Don't expect to earn a profit from it.

Nothing wrong with recreational play.

Everything wrong with systems.



Oscars Grind was created for craps. The original Oscar claims he played it for years, with a goal of earning $100 to cover his nut for the weekend trip. It's a slow monotonous way to play hence -the grind.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Tanko
Tanko
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December 6th, 2016 at 11:25:39 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Oscars Grind was created for craps. The original Oscar claims he played it for years, with a goal of earning $100 to cover his nut for the weekend trip. It's a slow monotonous way to play hence -the grind.



The earliest mention of Oscar’s Grind was in Alan N. Wilson’s 1965 book “The Casino Gamblers Guide”.

He gave a detailed analysis of the system using Oscar’s $1 unit, and found the player would eventually suffer catastrophic losses.

“He could go to Las Vegas one weekend per month for four years and monotonously drag down $100 in about 10 hours of play. In fifty such trips, he could rack up $5,000 profit.

But there is also a 37 percent chance that on one of those 50 weekends, he would run up against the house edge and be $13,000 in the hole. (13,000 units)

There is an 18 percent chance of two catastrophic sequences, producing a net loss of $21,000, and a 6 percent chance of three ruinous losses for a loss of $34,000; and so on.

The first ruinous loss may occur at any time. The fact that such losses average only once per 5,000 sequences or so provides no assurance that lightening will not strike early for some hapless player.”


The book also mentions a blackjack player called “Greasy John” who according to Wilson, "evidently possessed some personal attributes that discouraged other people from playing with him.”
billryan
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December 6th, 2016 at 11:48:29 AM permalink
Quote: Tanko

The earliest mention of Oscar’s Grind was in Alan N. Wilson’s 1965 book “The Casino Gamblers Guide”.

He gave a detailed analysis of the system using Oscar’s $1 unit, and found the player would eventually suffer catastrophic losses.

“He could go to Las Vegas one weekend per month for four years and monotonously drag down $100 in about 10 hours of play. In fifty such trips, he could rack up $5,000 profit.

But there is also a 37 percent chance that on one of those 50 weekends, he would run up against the house edge and be $13,000 in the hole. (13,000 units)

There is an 18 percent chance of two catastrophic sequences, producing a net loss of $21,000, and a 6 percent chance of three ruinous losses for a loss of $34,000; and so on.

The first ruinous loss may occur at any time. The fact that such losses average only once per 5,000 sequences or so provides no assurance that lightening will not strike early for some hapless player.”


The book also mentions a blackjack player called “Greasy John” who according to Wilson, "evidently possessed some personal attributes that discouraged other people from playing with him.”



That's incorrect as Oscar supposedly only brought $500 with him. Hard to lose $13,000 or$21,000 with a $500 bankroll. Wilson went to extremes to discourage it as I recall, ignoring the guidelines Oscar set.
I forget the chance of going broke with a $500 BR but it's obviously much higher than with a $13,000 BR., but it would have to be 20% or more to render it ineffective.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
MathExtremist
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December 6th, 2016 at 12:36:14 PM permalink
Quote: tgparker

3.) For practice and education and training, I've purchased Win-Crap which looks like a good training tool. I've also located some free and paid on-line craps web-sites and I'm eager to hear what the consensus is about on-line craps.

4.) I've also noticed a lot of discussion about Dice Control and the need for alot training and practice.

Can anyone suggest a good practice DC rig? I'm a fairly handy carpenter, so I'm interested in blueprints, DIY kits, or portable knock-down easily assembled units.

5.) Lastly I'm open to any suggestions for any DVD and on-line courses for both Craps betting, money management, and DC.

The only practice you'll need is how and where to make your bets, spot dealer errors, and generally keep the game moving smoothly so more-experienced players don't yell at you. You can't practice and get better at craps than someone else in the same way you can be better at blackjack strategy. If two people put $5 on the passline, no amount of practice will make a distinction between them -- their bets will win or lose together.

I think it'd be a great woodworking project to build a craps table. There are all sorts of images and links on the web for "craps table plans," I'll leave it to you to determine which suit your needs. But again, I wouldn't go into this thinking that you'll magically learn how to influence the dice and tilt the edge toward your favor, at least not while using a throw that will be allowed by the casino in an ongoing manner. (Dice sliding works but that'll get you kicked out.) Dice influence is a myth perpetuated by greedy booksellers and their innumerate adherents.

Money management and betting systems won't tilt the edge either -- unlike the cards in a blackjack shoe, each roll at a dice table is independent of the last. If you want a true education on craps, first read through the description on WizardOfOdds, then teach yourself how to compute the house edge on every bet on the table. Start with the middle of the layout and work outward, doing the pass/don't pass last. Learn the payout odds and learn how the dealers pay off bets. Reading a dealer procedure manual would also be great to understand how the game works from the other side of the table. Learn the variations in certain bets like whether a buy bet collects the vig up front, whether the field pays 2x or 3x, or whether the don't pass bars the 2 or 12. Then go to a $5 table at a casino and make each of those bets a few times. If you put the chips in the wrong spot, the dealer will correct you. That's how you learn the game, and the (theoretical) cost of that play won't be nearly the $97 you spent on that bogus video.

Whatever you do, don't give strangers on the Internet more money for bogus videos on how to beat the game. Because they're all bogus.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
discflicker
discflicker
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December 12th, 2016 at 8:06:18 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

The only practice you'll need is how and where to make your bets, spot dealer errors, and generally keep the game moving smoothly so more-experienced players don't yell at you. You can't practice and get better at craps than someone else in the same way you can be better at blackjack strategy. If two people put $5 on the passline, no amount of practice will make a distinction between them -- their bets will win or lose together.

I think it'd be a great woodworking project to build a craps table. There are all sorts of images and links on the web for "craps table plans," I'll leave it to you to determine which suit your needs. But again, I wouldn't go into this thinking that you'll magically learn how to influence the dice and tilt the edge toward your favor, at least not while using a throw that will be allowed by the casino in an ongoing manner. (Dice sliding works but that'll get you kicked out.) Dice influence is a myth perpetuated by greedy booksellers and their innumerate adherents.

Money management and betting systems won't tilt the edge either -- unlike the cards in a blackjack shoe, each roll at a dice table is independent of the last. If you want a true education on craps, first read through the description on WizardOfOdds, then teach yourself how to compute the house edge on every bet on the table. Start with the middle of the layout and work outward, doing the pass/don't pass last. Learn the payout odds and learn how the dealers pay off bets. Reading a dealer procedure manual would also be great to understand how the game works from the other side of the table. Learn the variations in certain bets like whether a buy bet collects the vig up front, whether the field pays 2x or 3x, or whether the don't pass bars the 2 or 12. Then go to a $5 table at a casino and make each of those bets a few times. If you put the chips in the wrong spot, the dealer will correct you. That's how you learn the game, and the (theoretical) cost of that play won't be nearly the $97 you spent on that bogus video.

Whatever you do, don't give strangers on the Internet more money for bogus videos on how to beat the game. Because they're all bogus.



You will never hear more solid advice.
The difference between zero and the smallest possible number? It doesn't matter; once you cross that edge, it might as well be the difference between zero and 1. The difference between infinity and reality? They are mutually exclusive.
Maks
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January 27th, 2017 at 1:38:35 AM permalink
Hey TG,

In part registered just to reply to you.

I LOVE craps because it is an exciting game and was the cure, at least for me, for the relative bore that playing proper BJ is.... where it is almost without emotion where you know what to do and what not to do.

While Craps is absolutely the game with the lowest house edge if played properly... Pass/Don't with max odds, playing craps properly is perhaps most difficult of all.

Seems like most places are now at the 3/4/5 odds levels, with table minimums of $15 or higher, it means on one number you are having $15 + $75, or $90.

So for proper money management, a $90 bet should be backed by at least an $1800 bankroll. 5% at risk.

Therein lies the problem which is twofold.

First, sticking to just playing the pass/don't pass bet with odds may be extremely boring, particularly with the social pressures or if the shooter starts hitting other number consistently. Before you know it, you are playing the come bet, and adding on the odds and then the inevitable happens. 7 out. If you did have a $2k bankroll it would be okay. Unfortunately, most people joining the table with the $2k bankroll are not playing $15 bets.

Secondly, on dice "control"... by most accounts, it will not overcome the mistakes in improper bankroll management, primarily being under banked for the normal ups and downs. The other aspect to this is, if you are any good at influencing it... the pit staff will start coming down on you, ie making sure you are hitting the back wall, being pissed off that you are slowing down the game, etc.

I think craps out of all the game subjects you to the social pressures that will make you screw up by over betting and getting in trouble.

Fun, yes.... but it is not as much fun when you there is a hot shooter who keeps hitting all the number EXCEPT the point. lol.

Right now if i want to play craps, I will try to find a cheap table, unfortunately have not seen many $5 tables. My favorite places for ambiance/decor in Vegas are Cosmo/Wynn, but on a weekend try finding a $15 table, hah, all $25 plus, way too much at risk, especially if you want to play properly, and quite frankly... the vast majority of folks do not take max odds and waste their money on field and prop bets.

After my Craps kick, I did Blackjack on my last trip to Vegas and had tons of fun... you know proper strategy, and when the streaks happen, you lean into them.
Best of all, discovered Baccarat.... no card handling skills are required.... and the only thing you must focus on is bankroll and LEAVING when you are up.
With a house edge of 1%.... you have nearly the house edge of Craps with Max Odds, without the pressures and the ease at which you overbet your bankroll.
iamnomad
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January 27th, 2017 at 4:26:17 AM permalink
tg, in addition to the sound advice offered in this thread, go to Amazon and buy Andrew Brisman's Mensa Guide to Casino Gambling. Down to earth, easy to read, will tell you what the best bets are, and which bets to avoid.

Remember, if there really was a "system" to beat the house at craps or any other game, a: the casinos would bar you from using it, or playing altogether, or b: the casinos would simply stop offering the game. MAYBE there are those who can grind out a profit with card counting at black jack, but the stories on this site will demonstrate just how difficult that is.

As for craps, study up, go to the table, have fun and make friends. DO NOT expect to profit over the long term..
odiousgambit
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January 27th, 2017 at 5:51:40 AM permalink
I'm fairly sure the OP is not hanging around.

I was contacted by him; wanted to use email for some reason. I bet others were contacted.

I don't know, it was odd. There was something about it all that seemed off, like he had cards he wasn't showing.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
wudged
wudged
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January 27th, 2017 at 8:39:37 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

I'm fairly sure the OP is not hanging around.

I was contacted by him; wanted to use email for some reason. I bet others were contacted.

I don't know, it was odd. There was something about it all that seemed off, like he had cards he wasn't showing.



Same, I told him to post his questions on the forum and everybody would be able to help, not just me. Never heard back from him.
WatchMeWin
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January 27th, 2017 at 8:54:16 AM permalink
Quote: tgparker

Well, the main reason I joined this forum was that I was conned out of $97 for an extremely dubious "system" by a so-called craps "expert" on the way to being conned out of an additional $500.00 for even more dubious classes.

Luckily, I neither gambled with his "system" nor went for the socalled $500 "private lesson".

Blessing in disuise, I decided that I had better get as much advice and information as I can and find and connect with the "right" people before I spend any more money and or start playing craps without being properly trained or taught.

So I'm joining this and other forums and and investing in some recommended basic books on craps which ALL cost a lot less than the $97.

Anyway I do have some general questions that I'd like to put out there to the community...

1.) I am located in Mid-Hudson Valley mid-upstate NY and I'd appreciate some advice re: casinos that host real craps tables that are reasonably near to where I'm located. My brief search revealed a multitude of "Racinos" hosting electronic crap games which I figure are a waste of time and money.

2.) Are there any face to face Craps, clubs, groups, or crews, etc...(For practice and education and training, and going to casinos as a crew or team, NOtillegal gambling!) that I could hook up with in my area?

3.) For practice and education and training, I've purchased Win-Crap which looks like a good training tool. I've also located some free and paid on-line craps web-sites and I'm eager to hear what the consensus is about on-line craps.

4.) I've also noticed a lot of discussion about Dice Control and the need for alot training and practice.

Can anyone suggest a good practice DC rig? I'm a fairly handy carpenter, so I'm interested in blueprints, DIY kits, or portable knock-down easily assembled units.

5.) Lastly I'm open to any suggestions for any DVD and on-line courses for both Craps betting, money management, and DC.

Wishing you all the best and I look forward to getting to know some of you and hopefully meeting up with you all at a casino somewhere...

TG



TG, I wouldnt waste any time with electronic craps games... anywhere. As far as the bubble craps goes, Ive played it a few times in ResortsWorld, NY and in Florida. I dont fully trust that either. It is my belief that their are magnets built into the dice which can manipulate the outcome to the house favor.

I think experience is the best teacher in all aspects of life... including craps. Play for fun with WinCraps is a great idea. I highly recommend the software as the creator fully understands the game and has created something special with his software allowing you to do many types of bets. This site has a good fun craps game as well. You can go on youtube and pick out multiple sources of craps tutorials. Learn it well. Then play around for a while for free and construct your own idea of what works.

Are you just now getting into craps? Did you get tired of another game or just looking for a new past time? It could be an expensive habit if not careful... but it is alot of fun if you plan to take trips to the casino every now and then.

Good luck!
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
Calder
Calder
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January 27th, 2017 at 1:11:16 PM permalink
Wow, this got revived?

I'm thinking the emails, requests for meet-ups and interest in 'clubs' was a sales pitch:

Losing streak? I can help
pwcrabb
pwcrabb
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January 27th, 2017 at 3:48:04 PM permalink
Best no-nonsense simple book for learning optimal craps: "Take the Money and Run" by Tambourin

Perfectly acceptable freebie: Wikipedia article

The game historically began with the Pass line, for which one needs only memory. Understanding Odds requires arithmetic.
"I suppose I was mad. Every great genius is mad upon the subject in which he is greatest. The unsuccessful madman is disgraced and called a lunatic." Fitz-James O'Brien, The Diamond Lens (1858)
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