Double Ball Roulette
May 29th, 2012 at 4:43:29 PM
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Mike,
Here is a series of questions pertaining to 'double ball roulette' that are burning my mind. Please Help!
1. What would the probability of winning single number and house edge be in Roulettle (double 00 & single 0) if two different balls were dropped per each spin?
2. Both numbers?
3. Same question for bets on red/black, rows or boxes of 12, pair, square street, etc.?
Truly appreciate an answer!
Mark
Here is a series of questions pertaining to 'double ball roulette' that are burning my mind. Please Help!
1. What would the probability of winning single number and house edge be in Roulettle (double 00 & single 0) if two different balls were dropped per each spin?
2. Both numbers?
3. Same question for bets on red/black, rows or boxes of 12, pair, square street, etc.?
Truly appreciate an answer!
Mark
May 29th, 2012 at 5:17:09 PM
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Quote: behronlee15Mike,
Here is a series of questions pertaining to 'double ball roulette' that are burning my mind. Please Help!
1. What would the probability of winning single number and house edge be in Roulettle (double 00 & single 0) if two different balls were dropped per each spin?
2. Both numbers?
3. Same question for bets on red/black, rows or boxes of 12, pair, square street, etc.?
Truly appreciate an answer!
Mark
This cannot be figured out exactly unless you add the stipulation that the first number does not have any influence on the second number. It is possible that once one ball lands in a slot that this now alters the probabilities of, say, the ball landing in the adjacent slot.
May 29th, 2012 at 5:23:52 PM
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This looks to be the website
Double Ball Roulette
The payout card shows no even money or 2 to 1 bets.
That will not go over well.
A big 50 to 1 bet instead.
The layout shown is also for a double zero wheel
The logo shows one zero
Double Ball Roulette
The payout card shows no even money or 2 to 1 bets.
That will not go over well.
A big 50 to 1 bet instead.
The layout shown is also for a double zero wheel
The logo shows one zero
May 29th, 2012 at 6:13:09 PM
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I think it WOULD increase the odds of the second ball landing in an adjacent slot, simply because it probably decreases or eliminates the odds of landing in the same slot.Quote: SOOPOOThis cannot be figured out exactly unless you add the stipulation that the first number does not have any influence on the second number. It is possible that once one ball lands in a slot that this now alters the probabilities of, say, the ball landing in the adjacent slot.
On the other hand, since the first ball is truly random, doesn't the factor by which it affects the second ball have no effect in the long run? I mean, it always deflects the second ball, causing it to avoid the first slot - which is always random anyway.
But to the original question, that of red/black, etc.: Since the colors alternate, it DOES slightly reduce the chance of getting the same color. Similarly for the other outside combinations.
While the user remote launch concept is cool, I say thumbs down to the two ball concept. For what it's worth, there already exists a single ball, two result wheel: Double Action Roulette
What's interesting is that the contact info links to a division of Howard & Howard. For those that are unfamiliar with that name, that's the firm that Rich Newman used to work for. Rich is the patent layer that I and several other members have used to patent our games.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 29th, 2012 at 11:25:39 PM
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Here is what I've learned regarding better answering my mathematical question regarding double ball roulette.
Given: The two balls are shot out by remote via pressure. It is possible for both balls to land in the same spot. I have seen this happen.
With the above variables stated, what then are the proper answers to my questions? Anyone?
1. What would the probability of winning single number and house edge be in Roulettle (double 00 & single 0) if two different balls were dropped per each spin?
2. Predicting both balls landing in two different numbers?
3. Same question for bets on red/black, rows or boxes of 12, pair, square street, etc.?
4. Based on what I have seen on the doubleball website I do not believe the math is correct. Is it?
Truly appreciate an answer!
Given: The two balls are shot out by remote via pressure. It is possible for both balls to land in the same spot. I have seen this happen.
With the above variables stated, what then are the proper answers to my questions? Anyone?
1. What would the probability of winning single number and house edge be in Roulettle (double 00 & single 0) if two different balls were dropped per each spin?
2. Predicting both balls landing in two different numbers?
3. Same question for bets on red/black, rows or boxes of 12, pair, square street, etc.?
4. Based on what I have seen on the doubleball website I do not believe the math is correct. Is it?
Truly appreciate an answer!
May 30th, 2012 at 12:16:47 AM
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No bets on dozens, columns, R/B, H/L or O/E. Is this a
joke? What casino in its right mind would offer such a
stupid game. I wouldn't play it with somebody elses
money. And nice try to get the Wiz to do the game analysis
for you for free. Try again...
Added later: The demo video shows a double zero felt
layout and a single zero wheel. Who are these bozo's?
The only bet you have is a 50/1 payout on the inside
betting on numbers 10-24, the rest are 35/1. All the other
traditional roulette bets have disappeared. Forget it.
joke? What casino in its right mind would offer such a
stupid game. I wouldn't play it with somebody elses
money. And nice try to get the Wiz to do the game analysis
for you for free. Try again...
Added later: The demo video shows a double zero felt
layout and a single zero wheel. Who are these bozo's?
The only bet you have is a 50/1 payout on the inside
betting on numbers 10-24, the rest are 35/1. All the other
traditional roulette bets have disappeared. Forget it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
May 30th, 2012 at 12:41:37 AM
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Maybe I am just too tired.Quote: behronlee15Here is what I've learned regarding better answering my mathematical question regarding double ball roulette.
Given: The two balls are shot out by remote via pressure. It is possible for both balls to land in the same spot. I have seen this happen.
With the above variables stated, what then are the proper answers to my questions? Anyone?
The rules at that web site are not very clear.
If you bet on 27 and both balls fall on 27, does it pay 17 to 1*2 or just 17 to 1?
Same with a split? bet 14/15 and both balls land on 14
or one on 14 the other on 15. Does the bet pay twice?
1 in 19 for double 00. That is easy. (I even simed it. Now I know Im too tired)Quote: behronlee151. What would the probability of winning single number and house edge be in Roulettle (double 00 & single 0) if two different balls were dropped per each spin?
If a straight bet pays once (17 to 1) the true odds would be 18:1 so the house edge would be -1/19. Looks familiar.
But does it pays twice if both balls land in the same number?
I'm guessing you only get paid once if both balls land on the same number.
2 chances to win one payoff.
2 specific numbers? 38*37Quote: behronlee152. Predicting both balls landing in two different numbers?
Already stated.Quote: behronlee153. Same question for bets on red/black, rows or boxes of 12, pair, square street, etc.?
There is no red/black, even money bets (it would have to pay 0.5:1)
No 2 to 1 bets either. Dozens and columns
I see no math on that website, just the payouts. They look correct.Quote: behronlee154. Based on what I have seen on the doubleball website I do not believe the math is correct. Is it?
Truly appreciate an answer!
I have to agree with EB here. existing Roulette players will not play this.
How is this going to attract new players? By the thrill of pressing a button?
This has to be a joke.
May 30th, 2012 at 4:10:51 AM
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Why tolerate variants? Insist the casino provide roulette rather than a variant.
May 30th, 2012 at 5:05:18 AM
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You've seen it happen? When? Where? How often?Quote: behronlee15It is possible for both balls to land in the same spot. I have seen this happen.
The most important question is, "How often?"
It should happen about 1 in 38 times. Personally, I feel that the first ball to settle into a slot has to deflect the second ball somewhat. Maybe the second ball still lands in the same slot occasionally. But nowhere near the 1 in 38 expectation for fairness.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 30th, 2012 at 5:41:35 AM
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The Double Ball bet says that "Both Balls in Any Number Pays 50:1".
On a double-zero table this appears to yield a player advantage of 34.21%
On a single-zero table this appears to yield a player advantage of 37.84%
What am I missing?
On a double-zero table this appears to yield a player advantage of 34.21%
On a single-zero table this appears to yield a player advantage of 37.84%
What am I missing?
May 30th, 2012 at 6:05:31 AM
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Quote: JBThe Double Ball bet says that "Both Balls in Any Number Pays 50:1".
On a double-zero table this appears to yield a player advantage of 34.21%
On a single-zero table this appears to yield a player advantage of 37.84%
What am I missing?
You are missing the fact that once one ball is in a slot the chances of the next ball also falling in the same occupied slot has to be substantially lower than 1 in 38. I don't know how big a slot is, how bouny the ball is, how big the ball is, etc... But I'd guess that it is probably less than a 1 in 100 chance for the balls to end up in the same slot.
Your analysis would be accurate if the two balls were on separate tables, not the same table.
May 30th, 2012 at 6:10:34 AM
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Unless they designed the wheel such that each ball has its own set of slots.
If they didn't design it that way, then they are really winging it. Math alone would be insufficient to compute the house edge (physics is needed as well).
If they didn't design it that way, then they are really winging it. Math alone would be insufficient to compute the house edge (physics is needed as well).
May 30th, 2012 at 6:10:36 AM
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JB -
That "Both Balls 50:1" box is aligned with the numbers 10-24.
Perhaps it means any of THOSE numbers? Is THAT what you're missing?
Either that, or the 50:1 is a representation of how much the first ball deflects the second ball.
That "Both Balls 50:1" box is aligned with the numbers 10-24.
Perhaps it means any of THOSE numbers? Is THAT what you're missing?
Either that, or the 50:1 is a representation of how much the first ball deflects the second ball.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 30th, 2012 at 6:15:02 AM
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Quote: JBUnless they designed the wheel such that each ball has its own set of slots.
If they didn't design it that way, then they are really winging it. Math alone would be insufficient to compute the house edge (physics is needed as well).
Right- that is why this game can't be analyzed. It would need a long 'trial and error' to see what effect the first ball landing has on the second ball. My guess is if they are paying 50-1 then they have done that long trial and error and have built in a large cushion.
May 30th, 2012 at 6:19:03 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearJB -
That "Both Balls 50:1" box is aligned with the numbers 10-24.
Perhaps it means any of THOSE numbers? Is THAT what you're missing?
Either that, or the 50:1 is a representation of how much the first ball deflects the second ball.
That's possible. If that's the case, then I have a very different defintion of "any number" than the game manufacturer.
If that really is the case, then this bet on a double-zero table has a house edge of over 36%.
I get the impression that whoever made the game either doesn't know much about roulette, math, physics, or all of the above.
Let's assume perfect conditions, where the resting place of the first ball does not affect the second ball in any way. Under these conditions in a double-zero game:
The 50:1 bet has a player edge of 34.21% (unless restricted to the numbers 10 thru 27)
The 1-number bet has a house edge of 6.51%
The 2-number bet has a house edge of 7.76%
The 3-number bet has a house edge of 9%
The 4-number bet has a house edge of 0.28%
The 5-number bet has a house edge of 1.66%
The 6-number bet has a house edge of 12.74%
Those figures are all over the map if the game shoots the balls out fairly and independently. If it doesn't, then the house advantage of each bet would be effectively impossible to compute.
May 30th, 2012 at 6:47:26 AM
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I didn't even see payouts. Where are they?Quote: guido111I see no math on that website, just the payouts. They look correct.
Maybe it's me, but when I click the "Payout Card: Click to Enlarge" I get a broken link.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 30th, 2012 at 6:54:14 AM
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May 30th, 2012 at 7:03:47 AM
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It must be me, because I can't see the copy you posted either. Maybe tonight, at home....
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 30th, 2012 at 7:17:57 AM
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All it says is:
1 Number (Straight Up) 17:1
2 Numbers (Split) 8:1
3 Numbers (3 Line) 5:1
4 Numbers (4 Corner) 4:1
5 Numbers (1st Five) 3:1
Double Zero Roulette Table
6 Numbers (6 Line) 2:1
Double Ball 50:1
Any 2 Balls Same Number
1 Number (Straight Up) 17:1
2 Numbers (Split) 8:1
3 Numbers (3 Line) 5:1
4 Numbers (4 Corner) 4:1
5 Numbers (1st Five) 3:1
Double Zero Roulette Table
6 Numbers (6 Line) 2:1
Double Ball 50:1
Any 2 Balls Same Number
May 30th, 2012 at 7:30:39 AM
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OK. Thanks.
But now I gotta question your math.
Doesn't 1 number straight up have the exact same odds as a 2 number split on regular Roulette? I.E. Both are two chances to win 17. Therefore, shouldn't the edge be the same?
Ditto for the 2 number split having the same odds as a corner bet, etc.
But now I gotta question your math.
Quote: JBThe 1-number bet has a house edge of 6.51%
The 2-number bet has a house edge of 7.76%
Doesn't 1 number straight up have the exact same odds as a 2 number split on regular Roulette? I.E. Both are two chances to win 17. Therefore, shouldn't the edge be the same?
Ditto for the 2 number split having the same odds as a corner bet, etc.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 30th, 2012 at 7:51:43 AM
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Normally I charge for a mathematical analysis, but this game is so off-the-wall that I can't resist doing it for free.
While the assumption is possibly unsafe to make, all of the results below assume that the two ball spins are independent. That is, the first ball in no way blocks the second ball from landing in the same slot. The net effect is the same as spinning a ball in each of 2 separate roulette wheels.
Here are the results:
To reiterate, if the first ball has the slightest impact on where the second ball can land, then the above math is meaningless.
While the assumption is possibly unsafe to make, all of the results below assume that the two ball spins are independent. That is, the first ball in no way blocks the second ball from landing in the same slot. The net effect is the same as spinning a ball in each of 2 separate roulette wheels.
Here are the results:
| Double-Zero Double-Ball Roulette | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Bet Type | Outcome | Net Win | Combinations | Probability | Return |
| Double Ball | Matched | 50 | 38 | 0.026316 | 1.315789 |
| Double Ball | Mismatched | -1 | 1,406 | 0.973684 | -0.973684 |
| Double Ball | Totals | 1,444 | 1 | 0.342105 | |
| 1 Number | 2 hits | 17 | 1 | 0.000693 | 0.011773 |
| 1 Number | 1 hit | 17 | 74 | 0.051247 | 0.871191 |
| 1 Number | 0 hits | -1 | 1,369 | 0.948061 | -0.948061 |
| 1 Number | Totals | 1,444 | 1 | -0.065097 | |
| 2 Numbers | 2 hits | 8 | 4 | 0.002770 | 0.022161 |
| 2 Numbers | 1 hit | 8 | 144 | 0.099723 | 0.797784 |
| 2 Numbers | 0 hits | -1 | 1,296 | 0.897507 | -0.897507 |
| 2 Numbers | Totals | 1,444 | 1 | -0.077562 | |
| 3 Numbers | 2 hits | 5 | 9 | 0.006233 | 0.031163 |
| 3 Numbers | 1 hit | 5 | 210 | 0.145429 | 0.727147 |
| 3 Numbers | 0 hits | -1 | 1,225 | 0.848338 | -0.848338 |
| 3 Numbers | Totals | 1,444 | 1 | -0.090028 | |
| 4 Numbers | 2 hits | 4 | 16 | 0.011080 | 0.044321 |
| 4 Numbers | 1 hit | 4 | 272 | 0.188366 | 0.753463 |
| 4 Numbers | 0 hits | -1 | 1,156 | 0.800554 | -0.800554 |
| 4 Numbers | Totals | 1,444 | 1 | -0.002770 | |
| 5 Numbers | 2 hits | 3 | 25 | 0.017313 | 0.051939 |
| 5 Numbers | 1 hit | 3 | 330 | 0.228532 | 0.685596 |
| 5 Numbers | 0 hits | -1 | 1,089 | 0.754155 | -0.754155 |
| 5 Numbers | Totals | 1,444 | 1 | -0.016620 | |
| 6 Numbers | 2 hits | 2 | 36 | 0.024931 | 0.049861 |
| 6 Numbers | 1 hit | 2 | 384 | 0.265928 | 0.531856 |
| 6 Numbers | 0 hits | -1 | 1,024 | 0.709141 | -0.709141 |
| 6 Numbers | Totals | 1,444 | 1 | -0.127424 | |
| Single-Zero Double-Ball Roulette | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Bet Type | Outcome | Net Win | Combinations | Probability | Return |
| Double Ball | Matched | 50 | 37 | 0.027027 | 1.351351 |
| Double Ball | Mismatched | -1 | 1,332 | 0.972973 | -0.972973 |
| Double Ball | Totals | 1,369 | 1 | 0.378378 | |
| 1 Number | 2 hits | 17 | 1 | 0.000730 | 0.012418 |
| 1 Number | 1 hit | 17 | 72 | 0.052593 | 0.894083 |
| 1 Number | 0 hits | -1 | 1,296 | 0.946676 | -0.946676 |
| 1 Number | Totals | 1,369 | 1 | -0.040175 | |
| 2 Numbers | 2 hits | 8 | 4 | 0.002922 | 0.023375 |
| 2 Numbers | 1 hit | 8 | 140 | 0.102264 | 0.818115 |
| 2 Numbers | 0 hits | -1 | 1,225 | 0.894814 | -0.894814 |
| 2 Numbers | Totals | 1,369 | 1 | -0.053324 | |
| 3 Numbers | 2 hits | 5 | 9 | 0.006574 | 0.032871 |
| 3 Numbers | 1 hit | 5 | 204 | 0.149014 | 0.745069 |
| 3 Numbers | 0 hits | -1 | 1,156 | 0.844412 | -0.844412 |
| 3 Numbers | Totals | 1,369 | 1 | -0.066472 | |
| 4 Numbers | 2 hits | 4 | 16 | 0.011687 | 0.046749 |
| 4 Numbers | 1 hit | 4 | 264 | 0.192841 | 0.771366 |
| 4 Numbers | 0 hits | -1 | 1,089 | 0.795471 | -0.795471 |
| 4 Numbers | Totals | 1,369 | 1 | 0.022644 | |
| 6 Numbers | 2 hits | 2 | 36 | 0.026297 | 0.052593 |
| 6 Numbers | 1 hit | 2 | 372 | 0.271731 | 0.543462 |
| 6 Numbers | 0 hits | -1 | 961 | 0.701972 | -0.701972 |
| 6 Numbers | Totals | 1,369 | 1 | -0.105917 | |
To reiterate, if the first ball has the slightest impact on where the second ball can land, then the above math is meaningless.
May 30th, 2012 at 8:01:28 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearOK. Thanks. But now I gotta question your math. Doesn't 1 number straight up have the exact same odds as a 2 number split on regular Roulette? I.E. Both are two chances to win 17. Therefore, shouldn't the edge be the same? Ditto for the 2 number split having the same odds as a corner bet, etc.
Not quite.
With the 1-number bet, you can match it once or match it twice. So it's a little higher than twice the single-ball probability.
The more numbers being bet upon at once, the more ways there are to match one of them. For example, let's say you're making a corner bet (4 numbers) and let's call the numbers A, B, C, and D. You will win if the two balls yield any of the following:
AA, AB, AC, AD, BA, BB, BC, BD, CA, CB, CC, CD, DA, DB, DC, DD, Ax, Bx, Cx, Dx, xA, xB, xC, or xD
(x is a miss -- neither A, B, C, nor D)
Furthermore, the normal payout for a straight-up is 35:1, in this game the straight-up is 17:1 which is less than half of 35:1.
I do, however, think that the game designer made the same kind of assumptions you just described.
For what it's worth, I confirmed all of my figures with random simulations before I posted them.
Now, it's possible that they have a rule saying that you only win if exactly one number matches and the other doesn't. That would be a stupid rule though; if a player were to bet on 17 and both balls land in 17, I don't think it would go over well telling the player that they lost.
May 30th, 2012 at 8:04:07 AM
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OH!
I apparently made an assumption that was in error.
I assumed that, if the two balls land in the same slot or in the same combination, that the payouts are double.
That error explains the edge deviation from standard Roulette.
I apparently made an assumption that was in error.
I assumed that, if the two balls land in the same slot or in the same combination, that the payouts are double.
That error explains the edge deviation from standard Roulette.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 30th, 2012 at 8:06:45 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearOH!
I apparently made an assumption that was in error.
I assumed that, if the two balls land in the same slot, that the payouts are double.
That error explains the deviation from standard Roulette.
Well, wait a minute, you may be on to something. I didn't think of that. I assumed that if one and/or both balls land in the slot being bet upon, that the bet was a winner.
The game's website is vague about specifics like this. If the payouts are doubled for 2 matches, the returns (house edges and/or player edges) are still all over the map.
May 30th, 2012 at 8:21:15 AM
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Quote: JBWell, wait a minute, you may be on to something. I didn't think of that. I assumed that if one and/or both balls land in the slot being bet upon, that the bet was a winner.
The game's website is vague about specifics like this. If the payouts are doubled for 2 matches, the returns (house edges and/or player edges) are still all over the map.
I assumed that the pays would not double for hitting a number twice, or hitting two numbers out of a group.
I calculated the same as JB, but it assumes that there is a 1/38 chance of the second ball landing in the same spot as the first ball. If they took thousands of samples, then I can only surmise that the odds of getting two balls in the same number are worse than 1 in 51. But for the math (physics, not really math) to be the same anywhere, the wheels have to be identical and the balls have to be identical. Are there regulations specifying the exact dimensions of a roulette wheel?
I don't like the game. I'm sure it will be harder to deal also. For standard roulette, the dealer essentially just needs to know how to calculate 36/n - 1.
I heart Crystal Math.
May 30th, 2012 at 8:37:44 AM
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As we've learned in other threads, there are NO regulations regarding the design of Pai Gow Tiles. I beleive there were comments in those threads that there are no regulations for dice either!Quote: CrystalMathAre there regulations specifying the exact dimensions of a roulette wheel?
My point is, I doubt there are regulations that specify anything for the wheels.
Are there regs regarding the balls?
For the record, the Gambler's General Store sells Roulette balls in at least two sizes (18mm and 22mm) as well as multiple sizes of casino quality wheels (22", 25", 30", possibly others).
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 30th, 2012 at 9:47:24 AM
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The website shows normal roulette wheels with red/black slots.Quote: behronlee15
3. Same question for bets on red/black, rows or boxes of 12, pair, square street, etc.?
Truly appreciate an answer!
Mark
But no red or black bets.
Red and Black bets is the game of roulette.
IMO, This game is useless.
Why even do the math when it is obvious the rules are not at all clear?
The website also states that the game can be played with one OR two balls.
So I guess the layout can be changed very quickly?
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
May 30th, 2012 at 10:15:33 AM
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If I make the following assumptions:
1. Assign the probability of landing in the same number = Ps.
2. Assume that the other 37 spots have an equal chance of being hit by the second ball. The probability of landing in a specific other spot, Po = (1-Ps)/37.
Then, if I bet on 4 numbers, the possible outcomes are:
1. Hit both balls in the same number, P1 = 4/38 * Ps
2. Hit both balls in unique numbers, P2 = 4/38 * 3 * Po
3. Hit the first ball, miss the second, P3 = 4/38 * (1 - 3*Po - Ps)
4. Miss the first ball, hit the second, P4 = 34/38 * 4 * Po
5. Miss the first ball, miss the second, P5 = 34/38 * (1 - 4*Po)
Return = 5*(1-34/38 * (1 - 4*Po)) - 1
Set Return = 0, and solve for Po = 9/340, then for Ps = 7/340
Therefore, you will have a zero return on 4 numbers bet if the probability of getting two numbers in the same spot = 7/340. If the probability is less than 7/340, you will have an advantage on 4 numbers bet. If the probability is greater than 7/340, you will have an advantage on "Both Balls In Any Number" bet. So, there is always an advantage.
Of course, this is all based upon the assumption that the second ball has an equal chance at all numbers not hit. I suspect that there is a higher chance of hitting adjacent numbers.
1. Assign the probability of landing in the same number = Ps.
2. Assume that the other 37 spots have an equal chance of being hit by the second ball. The probability of landing in a specific other spot, Po = (1-Ps)/37.
Then, if I bet on 4 numbers, the possible outcomes are:
1. Hit both balls in the same number, P1 = 4/38 * Ps
2. Hit both balls in unique numbers, P2 = 4/38 * 3 * Po
3. Hit the first ball, miss the second, P3 = 4/38 * (1 - 3*Po - Ps)
4. Miss the first ball, hit the second, P4 = 34/38 * 4 * Po
5. Miss the first ball, miss the second, P5 = 34/38 * (1 - 4*Po)
Return = 5*(1-34/38 * (1 - 4*Po)) - 1
Set Return = 0, and solve for Po = 9/340, then for Ps = 7/340
Therefore, you will have a zero return on 4 numbers bet if the probability of getting two numbers in the same spot = 7/340. If the probability is less than 7/340, you will have an advantage on 4 numbers bet. If the probability is greater than 7/340, you will have an advantage on "Both Balls In Any Number" bet. So, there is always an advantage.
Of course, this is all based upon the assumption that the second ball has an equal chance at all numbers not hit. I suspect that there is a higher chance of hitting adjacent numbers.
I heart Crystal Math.
May 30th, 2012 at 11:13:15 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBear
OH!
I apparently made an assumption that was in error.
I assumed that, if the two balls land in the same slot, that the payouts are double.
That error explains the deviation from standard Roulette.
I do not see this as such a difficult problem. The website says nothing about getting paid twice just that the player has more chances to win. And that is true. each bet has 2 chances to win.Quote: JBWell, wait a minute, you may be on to something. I didn't think of that. I assumed that if one and/or both balls land in the slot being bet upon, that the bet was a winner.
The game's website is vague about specifics like this. If the payouts are doubled for 2 matches, the returns (house edges and/or player edges) are still all over the map.
I see it as one bet being allowed 2 spins to win.
Straight-up bet. $5 on #19
First ball: #1
did not win
Second ball:#19
I win.
I had 2 chances (2 spins) to win my bet. 2 balls = 2 spins.
There is NO way they can pay me 35 to 1. They will go broke quickly.
17 to 1 is just right since my chances to win was 2 in 38 or 18 to 1.
I agree with JB.
IF the first spin was a #19 and the next was also a #19, I would expect to get paid twice, but the layout says I get 50 to 1.
Players are now really pissed off!
Maybe I'm making it too simple.
This is how I see the game.
The video is silly having a single 0 wheel with a double zero layout as pointed out earlier.
As a Roulette player, this will not be popular at all.
Players love the even money bets, especially the red and black bets.
And on top of that, take away the dozens and columns bets?
The game designer could not have consulted with even 10 current Roulette players on this.
They would have all screamed (YELLED) at him or her.
Sally
I Heart Vi Hart
May 30th, 2012 at 11:25:25 AM
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The designer didn't consult with any dealers either.Quote: mustangsallyThe game designer could not have consulted with even 10 current Roulette players on this.
They would have all screamed (YELLED) at him or her.
While the contraption that is placed over the wheel uses the closest corner for the dealer to insert the balls. it gets in the dealer's way of pushing the wheel and grabbing the balls. Add that the launching rail is in the area where the dealer will reach for the balls, and it's really a dumb design.
For what it's worth, I get that they made it out of gold. But the reality is, as is indicated on their website, it's aluminum with gold plating. And, frankly, it looks like a hunk of metal with gold plating. And it covers the entire wheel railing - which is designed with a beauty all it's own.
If I were designing it, I would have made it so it covers only a very small portion of the wheel railing, and launch the ball in the other direction.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 30th, 2012 at 12:07:42 PM
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Quote: mustangsallyIF the first spin was a #19 and the next was also a #19, I would expect to get paid twice, but the layout says I get 50 to 1.
The 50:1 is a betting area itself; you have to place a bet inside it to get the 50:1 payout for hitting the same number twice.
The figures I listed on the previous page assume a single payout for the non-Double-Ball-bet, even if a number that is being bet upon hits twice, or if two numbers from a group that is being bet upon are both hit in a single spin. Here are the revised figures when 2 hits awards twice the stated payout:
Double-Zero Table:
1-Number bet: return = –0.053324
2-Number bet: return = –0.055402
3-Number bet: return = –0.058864
4-Number bet: return = +0.041551 (player advantage)
5-Number bet: return = +0.035319 (player advantage)
6-Number bet: return = –0.077562
Single-Zero Table:
1-Number bet: return = –0.027757
2-Number bet: return = –0.029949
3-Number bet: return = –0.033601
4-Number bet: return = +0.069394 (player advantage)
6-Number bet: return = –0.053324
——————————————————
The website appears to be registered to a Canadian company. I can't seem to find much about them except that they have also registered BayStreetTrainWreck.com, which sits dormant.
May 30th, 2012 at 12:23:31 PM
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ed43134
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
May 30th, 2012 at 12:25:29 PM
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Quote: 7crapsI totally disagree!
It is not what the layout says.
Look at the words. They are NOT in the betting box.
This game and website is flat out pathetic.
What a waste!
There will be so much confusion during this game.
Are we to guess to OP is the games creator and he gots his free math numbers?
Next!
I disagree with your disagreement. The chart has chips labeled A, B, C, D, E, F, and G showing where each type of bet is, and chip G corresponds to the 50:1 bet and is inside the 50:1 betting area.
However, I do agree with you that the game is confusing and poorly thought out.
If I did just give him a free math report, I hope he installs the game. I live near Canada; I'd happily go up there and play a bet that has a 32% player advantage.
May 30th, 2012 at 12:31:25 PM
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ed431345
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
May 30th, 2012 at 12:38:14 PM
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Quote: 7crapsExactly my point.
The bets (using the chips) are not shown on the layout, only on a rack card.
Imagine the arguments from player to dealer to supervisor.
99.999991% of Roulette players are simple minded people.
They would also expect to get paid 50 to 1 without a bet in that box, because that is what the words mean.
I concede that someone who thinks roulette is worth playing in the first place might think that way.
May 30th, 2012 at 12:43:52 PM
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That is one way to look at it.Quote: JBI concede that someone who thinks roulette is worth playing in the first place might think that way.
Pretend you (JB) are a Roulette supervisor.
You have a green Roulette Dealer. The best kind. (s)he came from the kitchen!
(Dan, can you relate?)
A player bet #1 Red.
Both balls land in Red #1.
The dealer does not know how to pay.
What do you tell the dealer?
How much does it pay?
This is why I say this game is a joke.
Anyone that has worked in a casino as a dealer or suit (yes, I was a dual-rate at one point) can see the horrible situations that this will create.
The creator needs to go back to the drawing board.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
May 30th, 2012 at 12:52:44 PM
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I would bet against the game making it to any casino under the current pay schedule.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
May 30th, 2012 at 1:03:03 PM
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Guido111,
Thanks for the response. For the record and to address EB's speculative (but lame) comment above, I am not the inventor nor owner of double ball roulette nor creator of the lame website and worthless table felt. My interests are solely from a players standpoint. I think everyone would agree that the way the website has this presented is truly lame as far as from a players gaming standpoint. There are almost no bets....no action.....no thrill beyond pushing a button to launch the two balls into one spin.
However, it is my humble opinion this could be fun.....i feel with the right 'table action' the game could be fun.
Thanks for your response. I'm looking into it further.......although roulette itself is last on my list of gaming behind BJ, Baccarat, Craps, & Sic Bo!!!
Take care
Thanks for the response. For the record and to address EB's speculative (but lame) comment above, I am not the inventor nor owner of double ball roulette nor creator of the lame website and worthless table felt. My interests are solely from a players standpoint. I think everyone would agree that the way the website has this presented is truly lame as far as from a players gaming standpoint. There are almost no bets....no action.....no thrill beyond pushing a button to launch the two balls into one spin.
However, it is my humble opinion this could be fun.....i feel with the right 'table action' the game could be fun.
Thanks for your response. I'm looking into it further.......although roulette itself is last on my list of gaming behind BJ, Baccarat, Craps, & Sic Bo!!!
Take care
May 30th, 2012 at 1:07:14 PM
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Quote: behronlee15Thanks for your response. I'm looking into it further.......although roulette itself is last on my list of gaming behind BJ, Baccarat, Craps, & Sic Bo!!!
May I ask you where you have seen the game? You said you have seen the second ball land into the same slot as the first ball, so you must have seen this game installed or previewed somewhere, correct?
May 30th, 2012 at 1:11:35 PM
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DJTB,
Yes, I did witness two balls land in the same spot.......because I personally have a roulette wheel, craps table, baccarat table, and bj table in my home game room. What my friends and I did was spin two balls at once and they can and do land in the same place. Be it may that there are many variables that differ from the double ball website.
First, we hand spun the two balls and do not have any remote pressure switch on my table. Also, your comment about deflections, etc., is VERY true. This becomes a variable when using the larger of the two standard roulette ball sizes. I have no idea what size ball the owner or inventor of double ball uses or suggests to use. Finally, I have no idea 'how often' the landing of two balls in the same spot occurs. We simply did it to see if it could be done. And it can!
In closing, I am certainly looking for the comparison math based on bets that can be made. I still like the concept but hate the way it is being presented.
Yes, I did witness two balls land in the same spot.......because I personally have a roulette wheel, craps table, baccarat table, and bj table in my home game room. What my friends and I did was spin two balls at once and they can and do land in the same place. Be it may that there are many variables that differ from the double ball website.
First, we hand spun the two balls and do not have any remote pressure switch on my table. Also, your comment about deflections, etc., is VERY true. This becomes a variable when using the larger of the two standard roulette ball sizes. I have no idea what size ball the owner or inventor of double ball uses or suggests to use. Finally, I have no idea 'how often' the landing of two balls in the same spot occurs. We simply did it to see if it could be done. And it can!
In closing, I am certainly looking for the comparison math based on bets that can be made. I still like the concept but hate the way it is being presented.
May 30th, 2012 at 1:28:49 PM
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The concept is unique. Two spins to win a placed bet. And both spins happen at the same time using 2 balls.Quote: behronlee15I still like the concept but hate the way it is being presented.
Sally and JB were shooting the breeze over lunch (Sally bought) and Sally had an idea. The conversation...
"JB" Sally said.
JB, gulping down on his burger, lifts up his eyes
"How about a Roulette game that uses all the current Roulette bets, but use 2 balls on one spin instead. I think it would be a GREAT idea!"
JB keeps chewing as he grabs a few fries.
Sally enthusiastically says "Well, what do you think?"
JB swallows his mouthful of food and drinks some of his diet root beer.
JB just rolls his eyes.
I Heart Vi Hart
May 30th, 2012 at 1:49:17 PM
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The following comment has been bugging me. It's from this post on page 3:
I'm having trouble with the mental math. Assuming the double hit pays double, why are the house edges still "all over the map" ?
As I see it, two balls with equal chance to land on a single number paying $17 each ($34 total), is no different than a traditional table where a $1 split pays $17, and you hitting it twice in a row, giving you a $34 payout. Therefore the single number payout of $17 is the same as a split paying $17 on a traditional table.
Similarly, the two ball version paying a 2 way split $8 should be mathematically equal to a traditional table paying a corner bet $8.
A 3 number street pays $5 on the double ball game. A 6 number bet pays $5 on traditional Roulette.
Shouldn't the edge on these be the same as traditional Roulette?
What am I missing?
For what it's worth, my feeble mental math says the double ball version 4 corners should pay $3.50, and five numbers should pay $2.60. That they pay $4 and $3 makes those bets slightly better than on traditional Roulette, but, "all over the map" ?
Quote: JBIf the payouts are doubled for 2 matches, the returns (house edges and/or player edges) are still all over the map.
I'm having trouble with the mental math. Assuming the double hit pays double, why are the house edges still "all over the map" ?
As I see it, two balls with equal chance to land on a single number paying $17 each ($34 total), is no different than a traditional table where a $1 split pays $17, and you hitting it twice in a row, giving you a $34 payout. Therefore the single number payout of $17 is the same as a split paying $17 on a traditional table.
Similarly, the two ball version paying a 2 way split $8 should be mathematically equal to a traditional table paying a corner bet $8.
A 3 number street pays $5 on the double ball game. A 6 number bet pays $5 on traditional Roulette.
Shouldn't the edge on these be the same as traditional Roulette?
What am I missing?
For what it's worth, my feeble mental math says the double ball version 4 corners should pay $3.50, and five numbers should pay $2.60. That they pay $4 and $3 makes those bets slightly better than on traditional Roulette, but, "all over the map" ?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 30th, 2012 at 1:59:25 PM
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JB-
Looks like I started something fun to follow in your forum comments with the 'double ball roulette' concept. For the record, as I've stated I am not the inventor nor principal owner of this concept at all. I did see a magnetic sign on a truck in town that had the same double ball roulette logo as the website. this perked my interest because I feel it could be interesting.
However, I have no idea what the webste means with the 50:1 bet and still would like to understand how two balls being dropped into a spinning wheel at once could differ mathematically from single ball rouldtte.
As far as the rules of play? No idea? As far as bets offered with this game? No idea? As far as what casino's have this game....never seen it played in any casino yet and I play in vegas daily.
My thoughts on the double ball concept would be to:
1. have a red & black ball
2. determine bets identical to single ball but with the added bets of two balls
3. have bet payouts whereas ball lands in two 'odd' numbers or two 'even' numbers, or even/odd number
4. maybe even bets whereas one ball lands in '0' and the other in '00'
5. both balls in 1st 12, or bet one ball in 1st 12 and one ball in 3rd 12....etc
Perhaps you now see why the 'double ball' concept interested me versus whatever the Canadians who invented this concept are trying to pull off?
I will try to track down the person here in vegas who is involved with this concept.
Thanks for all your comments!!!!
Looks like I started something fun to follow in your forum comments with the 'double ball roulette' concept. For the record, as I've stated I am not the inventor nor principal owner of this concept at all. I did see a magnetic sign on a truck in town that had the same double ball roulette logo as the website. this perked my interest because I feel it could be interesting.
However, I have no idea what the webste means with the 50:1 bet and still would like to understand how two balls being dropped into a spinning wheel at once could differ mathematically from single ball rouldtte.
As far as the rules of play? No idea? As far as bets offered with this game? No idea? As far as what casino's have this game....never seen it played in any casino yet and I play in vegas daily.
My thoughts on the double ball concept would be to:
1. have a red & black ball
2. determine bets identical to single ball but with the added bets of two balls
3. have bet payouts whereas ball lands in two 'odd' numbers or two 'even' numbers, or even/odd number
4. maybe even bets whereas one ball lands in '0' and the other in '00'
5. both balls in 1st 12, or bet one ball in 1st 12 and one ball in 3rd 12....etc
Perhaps you now see why the 'double ball' concept interested me versus whatever the Canadians who invented this concept are trying to pull off?
I will try to track down the person here in vegas who is involved with this concept.
Thanks for all your comments!!!!
May 30th, 2012 at 2:01:18 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearI'm having trouble with the mental math. Assuming the double hit pays double, why are the house edges still "all over the map" ?
They just are. To recap, here are the returns where each ball hit awards the prize (as opposed to one or both balls hitting):
Double-Zero Table:
1-Number bet: return = –0.053324
2-Number bet: return = –0.055402
3-Number bet: return = –0.058864
4-Number bet: return = +0.041551 (player advantage)
5-Number bet: return = +0.035319 (player advantage)
6-Number bet: return = –0.077562
Single-Zero Table:
1-Number bet: return = –0.027757
2-Number bet: return = –0.029949
3-Number bet: return = –0.033601
4-Number bet: return = +0.069394 (player advantage)
6-Number bet: return = –0.053324
In traditional single-zero roulette every bet offered has the same house edge, and in traditional double-zero roulette every bet except one has the same house edge. But in double-ball roulette the house edge varies wildly based on the type of bet being made -- that is what I meant by "all over the map."
Quote: DJTeddyBearAs I see it, two balls with equal chance to land on a single number paying $17 each ($34 total), is no different than a traditional table where a $1 split pays $17, and you hitting it twice in a row, giving you a $34 payout. Therefore the single number payout of $17 is the same as a split paying $17 on a traditional table.
...
What am I missing?
I think you are attacking it from the wrong angle. Here's what I did (to keep it simple, let's use a straight-up single-number bet):
Probability of both balls hitting the selected number = 1/(382) = 0.000693, net win = 34, return = 0.023546
Probability of first ball only hitting the selected number = (1/38) * (37/38) = 0.025623, net win = 17, return = 0.435596
Probability of second ball only hitting the selected number = (37/38) * (1/38) = 0.025623, net win = 17, return = 0.435596
Probability of neither ball hitting the selected number = (37/38)2 = 0.948061, net win = -1, return = -0.948061
Add the unrounded totals together and you get -0.053324, or expressed as a fraction, -77/1444.
May 30th, 2012 at 2:08:02 PM
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Yo E-B,
FYI,
I am not the owner, inventor, nor website designer of this game. Your comment 'And nice try to get the Wiz to do the game analysis for you for free' is very close to insulting. My interests are strickly from a player's interest and feel the overall concept can be very interesting wth the right bets. Keep it real dude.
I have no interest in analyzing the inventor/owner's website design or game concept. I do have a sincere mathemetical interest in the odds and probability of winning vs single ball roulette for existing bets or even some creative bets. Thank you.
FYI,
I am not the owner, inventor, nor website designer of this game. Your comment 'And nice try to get the Wiz to do the game analysis for you for free' is very close to insulting. My interests are strickly from a player's interest and feel the overall concept can be very interesting wth the right bets. Keep it real dude.
I have no interest in analyzing the inventor/owner's website design or game concept. I do have a sincere mathemetical interest in the odds and probability of winning vs single ball roulette for existing bets or even some creative bets. Thank you.
May 30th, 2012 at 4:10:56 PM
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JB -
Yeah, I get how you came up with that, and understand your math.
I was comparing the double hit to two consecutive hits on a traditional game. My mental math was considering two independent events - with independent bets. Your math considers one bet for the two events.
Got it. Thanks,
On a different note, I've been thinking of something whacky. I finally opened Excel and pumped in the formulas, then played with it.
If the payment is NOT doubled for a doubled hit, AND they use a wheel with NO zeros, there is still a slight house edge. About 1.3% for the straight up bet. And the edge gets higher with splits.
I wonder if this whacky game would be popular (and make the house money) in such a no zero configuration....
Yeah, I get how you came up with that, and understand your math.
I was comparing the double hit to two consecutive hits on a traditional game. My mental math was considering two independent events - with independent bets. Your math considers one bet for the two events.
Got it. Thanks,
On a different note, I've been thinking of something whacky. I finally opened Excel and pumped in the formulas, then played with it.
If the payment is NOT doubled for a doubled hit, AND they use a wheel with NO zeros, there is still a slight house edge. About 1.3% for the straight up bet. And the edge gets higher with splits.
I wonder if this whacky game would be popular (and make the house money) in such a no zero configuration....
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 30th, 2012 at 4:34:06 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBear
I wonder if this whacky game would be popular (and make the house money) in such a no zero configuration....
Not enough betting options. Its ridiculous, no casino
would ever have it, nobody would play it. Waiting
for 2 balls to fall into the slot you bet on is like watching
paint dry. Because of the variance, you could go an entire
shift and never see it once. Its bad enough trying to win
with one ball.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
May 30th, 2012 at 5:41:25 PM
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this double ball game seems like pure shite, IMO.
roulette is nearly the perfect game.
it is simple, there are tons of betting varieties,
and the american version has a huge house edge.
the players love it, the house still makes money on it.
i have never seen a side bet or an improvement
that stands a chance of widespread acceptance or use.
although i did like mr. casino games link bets,
i don't think most players are clamoring for improvements.
does every game have to be turned into a carnival game?
roulette is nearly the perfect game.
it is simple, there are tons of betting varieties,
and the american version has a huge house edge.
the players love it, the house still makes money on it.
i have never seen a side bet or an improvement
that stands a chance of widespread acceptance or use.
although i did like mr. casino games link bets,
i don't think most players are clamoring for improvements.
does every game have to be turned into a carnival game?
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
May 30th, 2012 at 6:49:19 PM
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Quote: WongBothis double ball game seems like pure shite, IMO.
roulette is nearly the perfect game.
Its also the original casino game. Leave it alone,
you can't improve on perfection.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
