Baccarat variation offered in the UK
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December 30th, 2011 at 3:59:58 PM
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This variation has been introduced at one of the provincial Gala chain of casinos and I've heard is also on offer at the Empire London.
Aimed at the Chinese clientèle, basically when the Banker wins and the Banker hand includes a RED EIGHT, you pay no commission (score doesn't matter). I was surprised how often this can happen in a six deck game (I had four "red eight" Banker wins in one shoe).
My question is, how does this "nice little promotion" affect the -1.056% HE on the Banker side (6 deck games).
Thanks in anticipation.
Aimed at the Chinese clientèle, basically when the Banker wins and the Banker hand includes a RED EIGHT, you pay no commission (score doesn't matter). I was surprised how often this can happen in a six deck game (I had four "red eight" Banker wins in one shoe).
My question is, how does this "nice little promotion" affect the -1.056% HE on the Banker side (6 deck games).
Thanks in anticipation.
May 8th, 2012 at 10:07:40 AM
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Just found this thread . . . .
At Napoleon's in Leicester Square, one of the guys on the floor told me of a regular promo they ran (a couple of years back now, true) where after midnight they would offer commission free wagers on the Banker hand on their Baccarat games. I never worked out the reduction on the HE, as an out-of-Towner it was unlikely I'd ever be there to take advantage - and even if I was, I think the chances of getting a seat at a table over one of the local Chinese regulars would be extremely slim.
At Napoleon's in Leicester Square, one of the guys on the floor told me of a regular promo they ran (a couple of years back now, true) where after midnight they would offer commission free wagers on the Banker hand on their Baccarat games. I never worked out the reduction on the HE, as an out-of-Towner it was unlikely I'd ever be there to take advantage - and even if I was, I think the chances of getting a seat at a table over one of the local Chinese regulars would be extremely slim.
Visit UK-21's Degenerate Gamblers Pages at www.uk-21.org.
May 8th, 2012 at 11:01:36 AM
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Quote: GoetheJust found this thread . . . .
At Napoleon's in Leicester Square, one of the guys on the floor told me of a regular promo they ran (a couple of years back now, true) where after midnight they would offer commission free wagers on the Banker hand on their Baccarat games. I never worked out the reduction on the HE, .
this would have the same effect as giving the normal house edge on the PLAYER wager bet to the person wagering on BANKER.
in an eight deck game, this would be approx.1.235%.
perhaps they were compensating for this with some other variation in the rules?
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
July 18th, 2012 at 2:25:28 AM
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Why would the HE be the same as the Player (increased) in a commission free game?
July 18th, 2012 at 3:49:10 AM
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I think that WongBo is saying that what is normally the HE for Player bets (1.29%) would become the HE for Banker bets in such a game. I don't think that's right, though, because Banker bets win more frequently. I think that a game with no Banker commission and no other rule variations would have a negative HE for Banker bets, and a positive expectation for the players (not to be confused with the Player bet). Wizard gives the players' EV for Banker bets in such a game (with eight decks) as 1.235%, which might be where the confusion arose from. I would guess that HE would be -1.235% but I could be misunderstanding how HE is arrived at.
July 18th, 2012 at 4:16:02 AM
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No, what he's saying is that the HE for player bets would become the edge to the player for banker bets, so if the players kept at it in their usual fashion - which doesn't seem unlikely, given how superstitious they tend to be - they'd break even, ignoring tie bets.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
July 18th, 2012 at 4:58:23 AM
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in an eight deck game, disregarding ties,
the Banker probability of winning is .458597
the Player probability of winning is .446247
so a bet on Player normally yields a house edge of .1235
the difference between the two probabilities
a bet on Banker with 5% commission returns 0.435668 (.458597 *.95)
a bet on Banker normally has an edge of 0.010579
the difference between the returns.
when you eliminate the commission on Banker,
the Banker has a greater probability of winning by .1235,
a player advantage,
which is the same amount as the house edge on the Player shown above.
the Banker probability of winning is .458597
the Player probability of winning is .446247
so a bet on Player normally yields a house edge of .1235
the difference between the two probabilities
a bet on Banker with 5% commission returns 0.435668 (.458597 *.95)
a bet on Banker normally has an edge of 0.010579
the difference between the returns.
when you eliminate the commission on Banker,
the Banker has a greater probability of winning by .1235,
a player advantage,
which is the same amount as the house edge on the Player shown above.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
July 18th, 2012 at 5:07:52 AM
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Shouldn't there be a negative house edge with no commission, though? Wizard's chart on commissions shows a positive EV for the players, which to my mind says negative house edge. That's how I've always understood that bet to work (hence the existence of the commission).
July 18th, 2012 at 5:10:34 AM
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yes that is correct, there is no house edge on the Banker bet in commission-free,
there is a player advantage of .1235%.
i added a line to my post to make this clear,
that this is a player advantage bet.
if i found a live table that offered this,
i would never leave!
there is a player advantage of .1235%.
i added a line to my post to make this clear,
that this is a player advantage bet.
if i found a live table that offered this,
i would never leave!
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
July 18th, 2012 at 5:49:37 AM
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Thanks greatly for clearing things up. I thought that I was missing something obvious again because I'm still on my first cup of coffee this morning.
No doubt. The Wizard says that "For a short time in 1989 the Sahara offered 0% commission." I've heard other people innuendo at other houses offering this as a promotion. I've never seen it in real life, but, yeah, if I encountered it, I'd sit at that table betting the Banker over and over again until the pit crew tried to move me to a different game.
Baccarat with no Banker commission and no other changes to the rules is the is the Higgs Boson of table games, I believe.
Quote: WongBoif i found a live table that offered this,
i would never leave!
No doubt. The Wizard says that "For a short time in 1989 the Sahara offered 0% commission." I've heard other people innuendo at other houses offering this as a promotion. I've never seen it in real life, but, yeah, if I encountered it, I'd sit at that table betting the Banker over and over again until the pit crew tried to move me to a different game.
Baccarat with no Banker commission and no other changes to the rules is the is the Higgs Boson of table games, I believe.
July 18th, 2012 at 6:15:57 AM
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Let's try to get this back on track to the UK promotion. The Empire casino says this on their web page, "RED 8 - AVAILABLE ALL DAY EVERY DAY. RED 8 ON BANK PAYS EVEN MONEY. MAX BET £200."
What I don't understand is whether the banker bet still has to win to get the even money.
What I don't understand is whether the banker bet still has to win to get the even money.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
July 18th, 2012 at 7:26:18 AM
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it would seem to make the most sense
that only the winning Banker bets with a red 8
would be paid even money.
i sent them an enquiry, just to be sure.
will post their reply.
that only the winning Banker bets with a red 8
would be paid even money.
i sent them an enquiry, just to be sure.
will post their reply.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
July 18th, 2012 at 7:38:21 AM
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Quote: WongBoit would seem to make the most sense
that only the winning Banker bets with a red 8
would be paid even money.
i sent them an enquiry, just to be sure.
will post their reply.
Thanks. Just going by the feel of the game, it would seem too strong if it were the alternative. I will await to hear what they say.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
July 20th, 2012 at 6:10:45 PM
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Just stumbled across this thread and it's been a while since I went into London: If I recall Napoleon's had a promotion based on the Tie Bet and receiving a special £8 chip (probably winning with tied 8), but it didn't overcome the house edge and the Empire (I think) had something if the bank won by drawing (presumably 3rd card) a red 8. However this is only my educated guess/memory rather than hard facts.
June 23rd, 2013 at 7:30:22 AM
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Yes if the Banco wins with a red 8 anywhere in the mix, the win is paid tax free. This is now offered in a few casinos in the UK.Quote: WizardLet's try to get this back on track to the UK promotion. The Empire casino says this on their web page, "RED 8 - AVAILABLE ALL DAY EVERY DAY. RED 8 ON BANK PAYS EVEN MONEY. MAX BET £200."
What I don't understand is whether the banker bet still has to win to get the even money.
Another variation is the "super egalite" bet, normal ties paid at 9-1 and a whole range of payouts such as 160-1 for a tie on zero. What a lot of players do if they are losing, is place £2 on the three highest Tie paying options and any Tie. If a Tie comes in, it covers the lost score bets, should a Tie on zero happen, you get paid £320 for a £2 stake minus £4 and are back in the game.
June 24th, 2013 at 6:36:30 AM
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There are twelve red 8's in a 6-deck-shoe. About forty hands played per shoe. About half are Punto-win, leaving on average six red 8's on Banco-wins. Of those, about half will be in the Punto hand. This leaves on average THREE occurrences of the "special" per deck. 3/40=7.5% of the time.
Without calculating, I guesstimate this reduces the House Edge by about 2 to 4 % (from about .07 to about .068). A little better for us, sure. But definitely not what would make the casino bankrupt. Nor change the dominant strategy of betting Banco.
But what is of notice, though, is that it makes Baccarat countable, since you can check the appearance of red 8's.
(Yet I doubt it is worth the effort. That's why they limit bets.)
Without calculating, I guesstimate this reduces the House Edge by about 2 to 4 % (from about .07 to about .068). A little better for us, sure. But definitely not what would make the casino bankrupt. Nor change the dominant strategy of betting Banco.
But what is of notice, though, is that it makes Baccarat countable, since you can check the appearance of red 8's.
(Yet I doubt it is worth the effort. That's why they limit bets.)
Reperiet qui quaesiverit
June 27th, 2013 at 11:05:30 AM
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Thanks for the info. Actually there are approx between 50 ~ 56 hands in a 6 deck game not including Ties, which would change the 7.5% quoted figure to 5.4%. What effect this has on the Banco 1.06% HE, I'm not sure.
August 18th, 2013 at 7:08:19 PM
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Very quick calculation (as it's getting late so I haven't checked it) suggests there aren't many hands that win with either Red 8s being drawn (as presumably most times you have to start with 0 or 1) and the additional win is only 5% of your bet.
Anyway the figures I get (allowing for loss of final digit due to excel spreadsheet) based on 8 decks are:-
Qualifying criteria (i) 3rd card is red 8
0 037 758 268 515 328 # hands
0 001 887 913 425 766 (free money paid out 5%)
4 947 407 844 452 860 (Total payout)
98.979 865%
Qualifying criteria (ii) Any red 8 in hand
0 243 948 580 957 600
0 012 197 429 047 880
4 957 717 360 074 980
99.186 121%
Normal - no bonus applies
4 945 519 931 027 100
98.942 094%
I'm guessing they're limiting the payout as it might be countable based on 8's having gone rather than being over book.
Anyway the figures I get (allowing for loss of final digit due to excel spreadsheet) based on 8 decks are:-
Qualifying criteria (i) 3rd card is red 8
0 037 758 268 515 328 # hands
0 001 887 913 425 766 (free money paid out 5%)
4 947 407 844 452 860 (Total payout)
98.979 865%
Qualifying criteria (ii) Any red 8 in hand
0 243 948 580 957 600
0 012 197 429 047 880
4 957 717 360 074 980
99.186 121%
Normal - no bonus applies
4 945 519 931 027 100
98.942 094%
I'm guessing they're limiting the payout as it might be countable based on 8's having gone rather than being over book.
August 24th, 2020 at 5:39:49 AM
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Getting back to the Red 8 baccarat rule, I see the Hippodrome casino in London offers the following:
My interpretation of the rules are the Banker bet pays even money if either of the following are true:
1. Any Banker hand wins with a red 8 somewhere in that hand.
2. Three-card Banker hand pushes to or loses to Player hand with a red 8 somewhere in the hand.
Any agreements or disagreements?
Quote: HippodromePlay Red 8 and Red 8 plus on Baccarat all day, every day in our dedicated Baccarat Pit on the Ground Floor. Red 8 in bank winning hand pays even money. Max bet even money up to £200. Red 8 PLUS 2 card bank winning hand pays even money. Max bet even money up to £250.
My interpretation of the rules are the Banker bet pays even money if either of the following are true:
1. Any Banker hand wins with a red 8 somewhere in that hand.
2. Three-card Banker hand pushes to or loses to Player hand with a red 8 somewhere in the hand.
Any agreements or disagreements?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 24th, 2020 at 6:28:46 AM
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I think the aim is to pay Even Money on a winning Banker bet under some circumstances (rather than take commission).
So my guess is winning Banker Wagers are paid 19/20, except the payout is Even Money in these two circumstances:
(i) The Banker's hand contains a Red 8, or
(ii) The Banker wins with any 2-card hand and the Player's hand contains a Red 8.
(They had a similar idea a few years ago but only if the Banker's Hand had a red 8. The RTP went from 98.942% to 99.186%. (HE 1.058% to 0.814%) I don't know how much extra the second rule adds.)
So my guess is winning Banker Wagers are paid 19/20, except the payout is Even Money in these two circumstances:
(i) The Banker's hand contains a Red 8, or
(ii) The Banker wins with any 2-card hand and the Player's hand contains a Red 8.
(They had a similar idea a few years ago but only if the Banker's Hand had a red 8. The RTP went from 98.942% to 99.186%. (HE 1.058% to 0.814%) I don't know how much extra the second rule adds.)
August 24th, 2020 at 9:30:11 AM
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The Hippodromoe rules page, describes the Red 8 rule as follows:
This leads me to believe the only way to get paid 1-1 on the Banker bet is for the Banker to win and have a red 8 in the Banker hand.
I think the part about the natural 8/9 only matters if the player bet over £200, getting even money up to £250.
Any other interpretations?
Quote: RED 8
We offer the most generous RED 8 promotion in the area.
When the Bank WINS with a RED 8 in the Bank hand the following is Tax Free
Up to £200 on any Bank winner
Up to £250 on a Natural 8/9 Bank winner
This leads me to believe the only way to get paid 1-1 on the Banker bet is for the Banker to win and have a red 8 in the Banker hand.
I think the part about the natural 8/9 only matters if the player bet over £200, getting even money up to £250.
Any other interpretations?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 24th, 2020 at 9:52:09 AM
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Strange but probably to do with counting. btw that wasn't the page I was looking at earlier - https://www.hippodromecasino.com/promotions/red-8-on-baccarat/
August 24th, 2020 at 3:49:41 PM
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Quote: charliepatrick(They had a similar idea a few years ago but only if the Banker's Hand had a red 8. The RTP went from 98.942% to 99.186%. (HE 1.058% to 0.814%) I don't know how much extra the second rule adds.)
I'm still not sure I have the current Red 8 rule correct, but I agree with this if the rule is any Banker win that includes a red 8 in the Banker hand pays 1 to 1. Here is my return table.
| Event | Pays | Combinations | Probability | Return |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Red 8 win | 1 | 243,809,554,247,680 | 0.048778 | 0.048778 |
| All other banker wins | 0.95 | 2,048,443,012,190,200 | 0.409820 | 0.389329 |
| Tie | 0 | 475,627,426,473,216 | 0.095156 | 0.000000 |
| Player Wins | -1 | 2,230,518,282,592,250 | 0.446247 | -0.446247 |
| Total | 4,998,398,275,503,350 | 1.000000 | -0.008140 |
Lower right cell shows a house edge of 0.814%.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
