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Wizard
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December 5th, 2022 at 9:17:18 PM permalink


I recently enjoyed a lunch at the Mona Rosa (pink monkey) in downtown Las Vegas, where I have been several times before. The name and ownership recently changed, but it seemed much the same to me. All went well until I noticed a 5% service fee added to the check. Although the service was quite good, I deducted the 5% from what I was intended to tip, so about 12%. I left cash in the folder, so don't know how my waitresses felt about it.

I post this to warn others about surprise service fees as well as to ask what you would have done in my shoes. The question for the forum is how much of a tip adjustment would you have made based on the 5% service fee?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Talldude90
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December 5th, 2022 at 9:29:27 PM permalink
Was it the servers fault the 5% fee was added? Unless you know the fee goes to the server then all you did was stiff someone that makes already low wages and you didn't affect the business's bottom line at all. I would have demanded a manager and demanded the fee that was not started prior to ordering be removed.
avianrandy
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December 5th, 2022 at 9:48:55 PM permalink
I would definitely let management know and not return for a while.i went to a diner and got carryout and noticed their was an entertainment fee. I asked and got a shrug of the shoulders and said it was a standard fee. When I travel out of county I don't see this fee. I figure it is to subsidize the local sports team the colts.perhaps the service fee is to subsidize the raiders.i just wouldn't return and let the waitress know the reasoning
100xOdds
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December 6th, 2022 at 1:15:46 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard



I recently enjoyed a lunch at the Mona Rosa (pink monkey) in downtown Las Vegas, where I have been several times before. The name and ownership recently changed, but it seemed much the same to me. All went well until I noticed a 5% service fee added to the check. Although the service was quite good, I deducted the 5% from what I was intended to tip, so about 12%. I left cash in the folder, so don't know how my waitresses felt about it.

I post this to warn others about surprise service fees as well as to ask what you would have done in my shoes. The question for the forum is how much of a tip adjustment would you have made based on the 5% service fee?
link to original post

i would have done the same, except 10%.
easier math in my head.
i never pay entirely in cash. at minimum, the bill on credit card and the tip in cash with me writing CASH in the tip portion of the receipt.

a couple decades ago, i was at a busy bar. i paid cash for my 2 beers + tip.
a week later, i came back and the waitress informed me i didnt pay my tab.
i stood my ground and she dropped it. i then paid by credit card everywhere ever since.

at least the tip suggestions in your pic was BEFORE the tax.
i hate it when restaurant's tip suggestion was on the amount after the tax.
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calwatch
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December 6th, 2022 at 1:29:30 AM permalink
I would wonder if it was on the fine print of the menu. The online menu implies a service charge but the PDF menu does not show it. I have been to restaurants where they print it on the bottom and I may mentally grumble, but if they do it this way I think it's fair to deduct it from the tip.
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AZDuffman
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December 6th, 2022 at 2:47:57 AM permalink
First thing is ask what the fee is for. It might not be for "tips" but for their base wage. Second, I would not return.

On one hand, this is how it is in the USA. We prefer line-item fees while EU citizens prefer hidden fees. But these line items are getting out of hand. To be charged for "labor" at a restaurant same as getting work done on your car just feels weird.
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December 6th, 2022 at 3:58:04 AM permalink
Quote: Talldude90

Was it the servers fault the 5% fee was added? Unless you know the fee goes to the server then all you did was stiff someone that makes already low wages and you didn't affect the business's bottom line at all. I would have demanded a manager and demanded the fee that was not started prior to ordering be removed.
link to original post



Don't always assume servers don't make much money. Almost every server in the world would choose to accept tips over having a higher pay rate and no tips.

I have a daughter that is a server in a breakfast/lunch restaurant. She is a single mother and recently cut back to working only four days because she makes such good money that working a fifth day was not worth it to her. I don't know her exact finances but she has a $1900 a month apartment and a $600 car payment and still has plenty of money to travel. I would be shocked if she wasn't making at least $80,000 a year when working five days.

I was shocked on occasion when she would say how much she made in tips on some days. Let's just say that $200 a day in tips is a bad day. I paid for her to get a bachelors degree and am sad she is not using it but while she is young I don't blame for for taking the low hanging fruit.
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Mission146
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December 6th, 2022 at 5:57:41 AM permalink
(Quote clipped to not duplicate picture)

Quote: Wizard



I recently enjoyed a lunch at the Mona Rosa (pink monkey) in downtown Las Vegas, where I have been several times before. The name and ownership recently changed, but it seemed much the same to me. All went well until I noticed a 5% service fee added to the check. Although the service was quite good, I deducted the 5% from what I was intended to tip, so about 12%. I left cash in the folder, so don't know how my waitresses felt about it.

I post this to warn others about surprise service fees as well as to ask what you would have done in my shoes. The question for the forum is how much of a tip adjustment would you have made based on the 5% service fee?
link to original post



I don't know what the service fee was for, but I would speculate that it doesn't go to the server on direct.

The first thing I would do is demand to see where this 5% service fee is advertised and ask them what the service they provided me was. I would also ask if it is a, "Service," that I could opt out of on a future visit (even though there won't be one).

Eventually, I would most likely get the service fee deducted from my bill.

I wouldn't get the margaritas even if I was on the sauce, so let's assume $4.00 for an unsweetened ice tea and my bill is at $46 plus 8.375% tax so $49.8525, but the restaurant probably rounds it to $49.86, which is after I get the service fee removed, of course.

Was this a lunch for two? I wouldn't have eaten at this restaurant if that was the cost for one person anyway. Suppose it was a lunch for two, my bill is effectively $50, so my tip would be $20.

From that point, I would never eat at the place again. I also would not ever eat there again even IF they get rid of the service fee. They have lost my business forever and I would encourage everyone I talk to (offline) to also not eat there.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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December 6th, 2022 at 5:59:36 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: Talldude90

Was it the servers fault the 5% fee was added? Unless you know the fee goes to the server then all you did was stiff someone that makes already low wages and you didn't affect the business's bottom line at all. I would have demanded a manager and demanded the fee that was not started prior to ordering be removed.
link to original post



Don't always assume servers don't make much money. Almost every server in the world would choose to accept tips over having a higher pay rate and no tips.

I have a daughter that is a server in a breakfast/lunch restaurant. She is a single mother and recently cut back to working only four days because she makes such good money that working a fifth day was not worth it to her. I don't know her exact finances but she has a $1900 a month apartment and a $600 car payment and still has plenty of money to travel. I would be shocked if she wasn't making at least $80,000 a year when working five days.

I was shocked on occasion when she would say how much she made in tips on some days. Let's just say that $200 a day in tips is a bad day. I paid for her to get a bachelors degree and am sad she is not using it but while she is young I don't blame for for taking the low hanging fruit.
link to original post



Good gosh!

That at least makes me feel less guilty for making what I do writing.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
lilredrooster
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December 6th, 2022 at 6:18:14 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146



Good gosh!

That at least makes me feel less guilty for making what I do writing.




where can I read your articles___________?____________thanks


.
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SOOPOO
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December 6th, 2022 at 6:33:07 AM permalink
May have posted this already…. Son got married this fall. Ex and I were responsible for ‘rehearsal dinner’. When picking out the menu in the contract it was clearly stated there would be a 20% service fee added, and an additional 2% charge if you pay by credit card. So we’d pay cash, and knew the $5k was really $6k. I asked the very nice ‘event manager’ if the service fee included the tip for the bartender/server. She said it does not. I asked her then what people ‘usually’ tip. She said most don’t! Our party was 4 hours. We gave the bartender and server $100 each. They seemed really happy, but of course they could have just been polite.

As far as the concept, as long as it is very clear there is a fee BEFORE I make my food/drink order, I’d be ok with it. If it’s hidden in fine print somewhere, I’d ask for the manager to remove it. I would not 100% for sure remove it from my restaurant rotation. If I really liked food/service/atmosphere I’d decide if the extra cost made a difference.
JohnnyQ
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December 6th, 2022 at 6:41:49 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I wouldn't get the margaritas even if I was on the sauce .....

Is it just me and my midwestern livin' but does $ 14 for a Margarita seem pricey ?

Also, what does BAR DOUBLE mean ?

And finally, yes, it does seem somewhat deceptive to have a random fee added to the check.
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Mission146
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December 6th, 2022 at 6:46:20 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: Mission146



Good gosh!

That at least makes me feel less guilty for making what I do writing.




where can I read your articles___________?____________thanks


.
link to original post



In the articles section of this site. I also have some on LCB. I have written most, or perhaps all, of the U.S. State casino pages for RealMoneyAction.com and I have several pages on WoO.

Thank you for asking!

Also, one recent article that's in the pipeline (complete on my end) has to do with collectibles investing and whether or not that qualifies as gambling in a certain way. It focuses on Magic the Gathering, specifically (due to recent events in that game that should generate strong traffic) and features an excellent and very detailed (it's me, so you know shizz is going to be detailed) interview with the owner of a games and comics shop.

I'd highly recommend reading that one when it is published and I will make a thread promoting it. I tend not to have a high opinion of myself, and my own writing, but I will say it is one of the best articles I have ever written about anything.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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December 6th, 2022 at 6:49:26 AM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

Quote: Mission146

I wouldn't get the margaritas even if I was on the sauce .....

Is it just me and my midwestern livin' but does $ 14 for a Margarita seem pricey ?

Also, what does BAR DOUBLE mean ?

And finally, yes, it does seem somewhat deceptive to have a random fee added to the check.
link to original post



If it's just you, then it's just us. I think that's high for a Long Island. It's high for anything short of a triple, imo.

BAR DOUBLE just means they put two shots of the good stuff in the margaritas.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Wizard
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December 6th, 2022 at 6:51:04 AM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

Also, what does BAR DOUBLE mean ?
link to original post



The woman I ate with can never order anything straight off a menu, especially drinks. There is always something special she wants added and/or removed. I would imagine that was a fee or some special request she had, but I don't recall what it was.

Axelwolf may be of more help with your question.
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Mission146
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December 6th, 2022 at 6:56:49 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

May have posted this already…. Son got married this fall. Ex and I were responsible for ‘rehearsal dinner’. When picking out the menu in the contract it was clearly stated there would be a 20% service fee added, and an additional 2% charge if you pay by credit card. So we’d pay cash, and knew the $5k was really $6k. I asked the very nice ‘event manager’ if the service fee included the tip for the bartender/server. She said it does not. I asked her then what people ‘usually’ tip. She said most don’t! Our party was 4 hours. We gave the bartender and server $100 each. They seemed really happy, but of course they could have just been polite.

As far as the concept, as long as it is very clear there is a fee BEFORE I make my food/drink order, I’d be ok with it. If it’s hidden in fine print somewhere, I’d ask for the manager to remove it. I would not 100% for sure remove it from my restaurant rotation. If I really liked food/service/atmosphere I’d decide if the extra cost made a difference.
link to original post



Anytime I would attend a wedding, or some other event with an open bar, I would typically just fall back to my bar tipping schedule when it came to the bartender. That schedule would be $1 tip for per drink of any kind. Also, I was never the one paying for the wedding, or event, so this $1/drink would be of very little concern to me.

I never thought about tipping the food server at these things, so now I feel kind of bad about not doing so. I'll have to remember to do that in the future, although, I try to avoid weddings and other events unless I have absolutely no real choice but to attend for social/familial obligation reasons.

I only worked catering at a couple of events in my entire life, but it was usually some flat amount that you were paid and you'd be doing pretty well, relatively speaking, even if you didn't get any tips. With that, I think they probably were legitimately happy with the C-Notes you laid on them.

If I went into a place and saw that there was some kind of added fee for non groups, then I would not eat there anyway. If you want 5%, then add 5% to your menu costs. I look at some, "Service charge," again, for non-groups, as being no better than a Resort Fee.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
billryan
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December 6th, 2022 at 8:00:01 AM permalink
I'd ask to speak to the manager and refuse to pay it if it wasn't upfront in the printed menu.
I had a similar issue several years ago, and the credit card person told me to contest the entire bill, not just the surcharge. A few weeks later, the CCC adjusted my bill and took off the meal. I don't know if the place got paid, but if they did, it wasn't by me. I'm pretty sure that's when I was still an American Express member, and that company used to provide outstanding service.
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December 6th, 2022 at 8:06:13 AM permalink
Service charge is BS. They'll justify it by saying it's to pay the waitstaff a higher base wage, or to cover medical insurance for the staff or some such foolishness. Better in my mind to just increase prices 5% instead, That way there are no surprises. I would've tipped my usual amount 20% rounded up or down to the nearest whole dollar on the price of food and booze AND the tax, but subtracted the service charge from the tip and tell the manager why. As for tipping on the tax, tipping on the tax usually only adds a few cents to the tip anyway.
Mission146
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December 6th, 2022 at 8:24:16 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

I'd ask to speak to the manager and refuse to pay it if it wasn't upfront in the printed menu.
I had a similar issue several years ago, and the credit card person told me to contest the entire bill, not just the surcharge. A few weeks later, the CCC adjusted my bill and took off the meal. I don't know if the place got paid, but if they did, it wasn't by me. I'm pretty sure that's when I was still an American Express member, and that company used to provide outstanding service.
link to original post



That's just a chargeback and the business, if they lose (or do not contest) does effectively lose that money. What happens is that the credit card company (Visa, Mastercard, Discover, Amex) will subtract the amount of your chargeback from your merchant account, which typically goes through the payment processor. I guess it's actually the payment processor that technically does it, but that's semantics.

American Express actually operates its own payment processor, so not only are processing fees on their transactions charged (any credit card does this) but they are also not paying a payment processing company a cut of that as they manage their own. Despite this, American Express gets the highest average processing fee percentage from merchants, even though they don't actually have a separate payment processing company to pay.

I suspect it is because of that American Express is really loose with crediting customers chargebacks and subtracting them from the card balance. This is usually a temporary thing until the dispute is decided, but I have heard that American Express sometimes lets it go (if you're the customer) even if AMex decides that the business was not in the wrong. They can afford to eat a few given their ridiculous processing fees.

Filing a dispute as to the entire amount was fraudulent, but it doesn't matter. You got the food and you ate the food, so the restaurant was defrauded by you at the advice of Amex if the restaurant did not end up getting paid anything. That's not a judgment when I say, "Fraudulent," because I don't care. I'm just calling it what it is. Filing a dispute to the extent of the fee would have NOT been fraudulent, imo, if you weren't made aware of the fee in advance.

It's also possible that the restaurant simply chose not to respond to the chargeback request, which may be why it took it off so quickly and was permanent. It depends on the processing company (I think?) but all I know is that when I managed the hotel you would receive a fax and would have x amount of time to respond. There's a certain irony in a company like Amex defrauding the business of the entire check as a result of the fact that you disagreed with a ridiculous fee.

Of course, I fought every single chargeback request we got, because they were all fraudulent. Either the person did not try to resolve it with the hotel directly or the franchisor, which is immediately fraudulent, or they agreed to some sort of resolution and then tried to get a chargeback anyway. What would often happen is they would get loyalty points or a free night credit, which itself gets charged to the hotel by the franchisor, would agree to whatever resolution, then still try to do a chargeback anyway.

On other occasions, they would not accept the proposed resolution and would attempt a chargeback, but I always fought and I almost never lost.

Whether or not the Amex customers thought they had won because Amex went ahead and just didn't put it back on their balance, I have no idea. As long as the hotel keeps its money, I had no reason to care. Also, I'm not to speak directly with the customer at that point, anyway.

A few times we had it where the hotel would win, now suddenly, the guest actually wants to try to come to a resolution with us. I'd usually directly tell them to F themselves and hang up on them when that happened.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Dieter
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December 6th, 2022 at 8:24:16 AM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

Is it just me and my midwestern livin' but does $ 14 for a Margarita seem pricey ?
link to original post



As far as I know, $3 jargaritas are no longer the norm anywhere.
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December 6th, 2022 at 8:32:02 AM permalink
In retrospect, I probably should have asked to speak to the manager about it. It probably was in small print on the menu somewhere. Since the fee was specifically for "service" and the tip is supposed to already pay for that, I feel justified in deducting the fee from the tip. If the staff is not getting that 5%, they should take it up with the management. However, in light of comments here, I should have been more communicative about how I felt.

I just sent an Email to the Mona Rosa to express how I feel about the fee. I'll let you know what they say in response.

By the way, I've had almost exactly the same thing happen at an independent restaurant at the Paris, but the added fee was some kind of "strip concession fee." That was indicated in small print on the menu mixed in with the warning about pregnant women eating raw seafood and so on. When I complained about it to the manager, he deducted it from the bill. There is an old thread about it here.
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billryan
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December 6th, 2022 at 8:46:54 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Quote: billryan

I'd ask to speak to the manager and refuse to pay it if it wasn't upfront in the printed menu.
I had a similar issue several years ago, and the credit card person told me to contest the entire bill, not just the surcharge. A few weeks later, the CCC adjusted my bill and took off the meal. I don't know if the place got paid, but if they did, it wasn't by me. I'm pretty sure that's when I was still an American Express member, and that company used to provide outstanding service.
link to original post



That's just a chargeback and the business, if they lose (or do not contest) does effectively lose that money. What happens is that the credit card company (Visa, Mastercard, Discover, Amex) will subtract the amount of your chargeback from your merchant account, which typically goes through the payment processor. I guess it's actually the payment processor that technically does it, but that's semantics.

American Express actually operates its own payment processor, so not only are processing fees on their transactions charged (any credit card does this) but they are also not paying a payment processing company a cut of that as they manage their own. Despite this, American Express gets the highest average processing fee percentage from merchants, even though they don't actually have a separate payment processing company to pay.

I suspect it is because of that American Express is really loose with crediting customers chargebacks and subtracting them from the card balance. This is usually a temporary thing until the dispute is decided, but I have heard that American Express sometimes lets it go (if you're the customer) even if AMex decides that the business was not in the wrong. They can afford to eat a few given their ridiculous processing fees.

Filing a dispute as to the entire amount was fraudulent, but it doesn't matter. You got the food and you ate the food, so the restaurant was defrauded by you at the advice of Amex if the restaurant did not end up getting paid anything. That's not a judgment when I say, "Fraudulent," because I don't care. I'm just calling it what it is. Filing a dispute to the extent of the fee would have NOT been fraudulent, imo, if you weren't made aware of the fee in advance.

It's also possible that the restaurant simply chose not to respond to the chargeback request, which may be why it took it off so quickly and was permanent. It depends on the processing company (I think?) but all I know is that when I managed the hotel you would receive a fax and would have x amount of time to respond. There's a certain irony in a company like Amex defrauding the business of the entire check as a result of the fact that you disagreed with a ridiculous fee.

Of course, I fought every single chargeback request we got, because they were all fraudulent. Either the person did not try to resolve it with the hotel directly or the franchisor, which is immediately fraudulent, or they agreed to some sort of resolution and then tried to get a chargeback anyway. What would often happen is they would get loyalty points or a free night credit, which itself gets charged to the hotel by the franchisor, would agree to whatever resolution, then still try to do a chargeback anyway.

On other occasions, they would not accept the proposed resolution and would attempt a chargeback, but I always fought and I almost never lost.

Whether or not the Amex customers thought they had won because Amex went ahead and just didn't put it back on their balance, I have no idea. As long as the hotel keeps its money, I had no reason to care. Also, I'm not to speak directly with the customer at that point, anyway.

A few times we had it where the hotel would win, now suddenly, the guest actually wants to try to come to a resolution with us. I'd usually directly tell them to F themselves and hang up on them when that happened.
link to original post



In this case, I took a group of seven or eight employees out to a Brazilian BBQ that was supposed to be all-you-can-eat and drink( soft drinks and juices). I paid extra to include sangria in the deal. It wasn't a buffet, but one of the places where waiters come around with skewers of meat. It started well, but half the waiters disappeared and after two pitchers of sangria, we were told the only person who knew how to make sangria had gone off duty and we couldn't get any more. We didn't get the food, drink or service we were promised and then they stuck on the group gratuity.
I didn't think they deserved the tip, but the rep I spoke to told me to bring up the lack of servers and the refusal to give us sangria after we were upcharged for it.
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billryan
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December 6th, 2022 at 8:55:55 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

In retrospect, I probably should have asked to speak to the manager about it. It probably was in small print on the menu somewhere. Since the fee was specifically for "service" and the tip is supposed to already pay for that, I feel justified in deducting the fee from the tip. If the staff is not getting that 5%, they should take it up with the management. However, in light of comments here, I should have been more communicative about how I felt.

I just sent an Email to the Mona Rosa to express how I feel about the fee. I'll let you know what they say in response.

By the way, I've had almost exactly the same thing happen at an independent restaurant at the Paris, but the added fee was some kind of "strip concession fee." That was indicated in small print on the menu mixed in with the warning about pregnant women eating raw seafood and so on. When I complained about it to the manager, he deducted it from the bill. There is an old thread about it here.
link to original post



Several places in The Link charge a concession fee, but my experience is they waive it if you bring it up. At the Brooklyn Bowl, I had fried chicken and the concession fee was only about forty cents so I let it go. The key may be to keep the fees low enough it seems cheap to argue over. I wasn't going to ask to speak to the manager over forty cents
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Mission146
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December 6th, 2022 at 9:01:38 AM permalink
That's a little bit different, so apologies for saying, "Fraudulent," Bill. Nothing in your previous post seemed to imply there was any problem with the establishment aside from the fee.

Laundry-listing is a common tactic that people do on these chargeback requests. In hotels, they often screw up and say things that can't possibly be true, or could be true, but are disprovable, when they try to do the laundry listing. They'll also complain about things as continental breakfast selection, for example, which is as it should be pursuant to our franchise rules and which they could have known ahead of time had they called the hotel and asked.

The only chargeback that I ever remember losing was when a company had an issue with the company credit card being used inappropriately and then requested chargebacks retroactive to a certain date. The hotel would have lost thousands of dollars as a result of losing that chargeback dispute.

Of course, since these were company paid rooms, I had copies of the ID's for the employees as well as copies of the credit card they used. This is why hotels do that.

With that, I took the matter to small claims court and the company settled out of court as I sued both the company as well as the individuals who stayed in their individual capacities. I did settle the matter in a fair way and only asked for the company to give me a new credit card to charge the rooms to and add, to the penny, the amount that I had spent to file the matter in court and the cost of the materials (paper, toner, mail) that I had used in suing them.

The owner of the hotel wanted more than was fair and was pretty furious that I was willing to settle for nothing more or less than what would make the hotel whole, but I told him to fire me if he didn't like it. I was the one who did all the work, so if he wanted more than what the hotel was owed, then he could do the work on it. Except, he couldn't have, because he is an idiot.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
billryan
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December 6th, 2022 at 9:17:10 AM permalink
If you eat the steak, you should pay for it.
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December 6th, 2022 at 9:25:36 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

I'd ask to speak to the manager and refuse to pay it if it wasn't upfront in the printed menu.
I had a similar issue several years ago, and the credit card person told me to contest the entire bill, not just the surcharge. A few weeks later, the CCC adjusted my bill and took off the meal. I don't know if the place got paid, but if they did, it wasn't by me. I'm pretty sure that's when I was still an American Express member, and that company used to provide outstanding service.
link to original post



Over the past 20 years I have probably disputed 50 different items on my Amex bill. Only once have they not sided with me on a dispute. Great customer service.
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December 6th, 2022 at 9:29:17 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

If you eat the steak, you should pay for it.
link to original post



Another thing that would sometimes happen, with multi-night stays, is that people would request a chargeback to the extent of the entire stay.

Obviously, the counterargument to that is: If the rooms or facility were so bad, then why did they stay multiple nights? Given that they stayed multiple nights, did they do so knowing the would request a refund on the entire stay and, if so, how is that not fraudulent?

That's especially true if they complained of something that was the case on the first night of the stay. Any other nights and the hotel could say, "Well, if the nights prior to the night in question were fine, then why should the guests not pay for those?"

Even if we were a fourth-quartile hotel, which only happened one period, then the most the franchisor would ever offer is a refund of the most expensive (if there was a rate difference) night of the stay. Contractually, it was the most they could offer or, at least, the most that they could offer and bill the hotel for.

If they did a chargeback request without talking to us or the franchisor, then a multi-night chargeback request would always fail for the guest. At that point, they would complain to the franchisor, but that complaint would be dismissed, and removed from our record, because I would demonstrate to the franchisor that there had already been a chargeback request and the credit card company sided with us. At that point, the guest would sometimes contact us directly and I would tell the guest to F themselves.

If they had talked to us, or the franchisor, and did not agree to the proposed resolution and did a chargeback request, then they would always lose if it was a multi-night stay. At that point, they would usually call the franchisor again, and the franchisor would do nothing, because I would demonstrate that there was a chargeback request with the credit card company and the credit card company said we won. The guest would then contact the hotel directly, whereupon, I would tell the guest to F themselves and accept reasonable refund offers from businesses in the future when they are made.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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December 6th, 2022 at 9:30:30 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: billryan

I'd ask to speak to the manager and refuse to pay it if it wasn't upfront in the printed menu.
I had a similar issue several years ago, and the credit card person told me to contest the entire bill, not just the surcharge. A few weeks later, the CCC adjusted my bill and took off the meal. I don't know if the place got paid, but if they did, it wasn't by me. I'm pretty sure that's when I was still an American Express member, and that company used to provide outstanding service.
link to original post



Over the past 20 years I have probably disputed 50 different items on my Amex bill. Only once have they not sided with me on a dispute. Great customer service.
link to original post



Yeah, I think they just end up eating a lot of those even if the business gets paid. I very strongly suspect that because I never lost an Amex chargeback dispute. I'd remember if I did because I hate Amex.

The hotel wouldn't even have accepted Amex, except the franchise rules stated that we have to.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
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December 6th, 2022 at 9:51:55 AM permalink
Sadly, CNF fees have left Vegas and are now spreading to the rest of the country. The restaurant chain Claim Jumper, for example, now charges such a fee at all its locations, posting it on the front doors and menus.

On one hand you could argue that it's a way for bars and restaurants to deal with rising costs, and really no different than a nightclub having a cover charge. On the other hand you could argue it's a ripoff for bars and restaurants to charge money for the "privilege" of spending money at their establishments.

In the end it doesn't really matter. CNF fees are here to stay and soon, when you call a manager over to have it removed, you'll just be told ... No.
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December 6th, 2022 at 10:03:48 AM permalink
Quote: Gialmere

CNF fees are here to stay and soon, when you call a manager over to have it removed, you'll just be told ... No.
link to original post



I have little problem with them as long as they are clearly disclosed. However, it makes me miss France and Germany, where the price you see is the price you pay.
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December 6th, 2022 at 12:02:12 PM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

Service charge is BS. They'll justify it by saying it's to pay the waitstaff a higher base wage, or to cover medical insurance for the staff or some such foolishness. Better in my mind to just increase prices 5% instead, That way there are no surprises. I would've tipped my usual amount 20% rounded up or down to the nearest whole dollar on the price of food and booze AND the tax, but subtracted the service charge from the tip and tell the manager why. As for tipping on the tax, tipping on the tax usually only adds a few cents to the tip anyway.
link to original post



A few cents? Dinner for two…. $200. Sales tax. $17.50. 20% tip. Extra tip $3.50. Not pennies.

Also…. So you tell the MANAGER you are paying the fee he gets but is cutting what the waiter gets? I think the manager will say …. Great! See you next time!
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December 6th, 2022 at 12:30:45 PM permalink
Wow, just one more reason to reconsider traveling to sin city.

This was probably inevitable.

Why wouldn't restaurants want to add a "service fee" for nothing of substance when they see how the casinos get away with a comparable "resort fee?"
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December 6th, 2022 at 12:57:54 PM permalink
Quote: Gialmere

CNF fees.....

Hey trying to follow along here, but what does CNF mean ?
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December 6th, 2022 at 1:12:20 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

Quote: Gialmere

CNF fees.....

Hey trying to follow along here, but what does CNF mean ?
link to original post

The Customer's Now F****d?
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December 6th, 2022 at 1:19:13 PM permalink
OK thanks, that makes sense. Now what does F****d mean ?
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December 6th, 2022 at 1:31:25 PM permalink
Yup. If I've made the decision to dine out, I've also made the calculus to tip on a possible 7 percent meals tax, depending on the town here in MA. That's my decision, at least. Your mileage, however, may vary. And if there's a "service charge", there won't be a "next time".
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December 6th, 2022 at 1:50:02 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

OK thanks, that makes sense. Now what does F****d mean ?
link to original post

Go to a bar/restaurant in Vegas and you'll find out! ;)

OK, that was a joke, as was my previous post. I had to look it up...

According to LVA, CNF stands for Concession and Franchise Fee. Not sure why it wouldn't be abbreviated CFF. Maybe it's an abbreviation of "Concession 'N' Franchise" fees?
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December 6th, 2022 at 1:52:50 PM permalink
Your other definition made a lot of sense and also seems very applicable.
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December 6th, 2022 at 3:09:46 PM permalink
I don't know the current laws in downtown Vegas, but you can maybe ask for it to be removed. Some regions will have a tourist commission type organization where all restaurants and some other venues will charge a small service fee (that goes towards the tourism fund for ads and shows and such), and put it on the bill by default, but have to take it off if asked to.

"Service Fees" are common on delivery (especially via app usually with the explanation that it is used to gas and mileage reimbursements, but is not an actual tip), but I have never heard of a forced one in a restaurant. But, outside of the scenario above (and service fee is not often used, it may be "tourism fee" or such), I have never heard of one simply for being served (if it is a placed that automates a minimum level of gratuity, they should simply say "mandatory gratuity" or something along those lines).

As an aside sales tax in NV is getting pricey, over 8% is a lot, I didn't even know there were States above the 7s now (especially if local cities are allowed to add their own on top of it, if they add the standard 2-4% range you are talking double digits sales tax).

You can always make an anonymous call to the restaurant (or email them) and ask exactly what it is and if its mandatory. Also, it would be interesting if this applied to carry out (not delivery).
billryan
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December 6th, 2022 at 3:37:55 PM permalink
10% in some Arizona localities.
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December 6th, 2022 at 3:59:06 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler


As an aside sales tax in NV is getting pricey, over 8% is a lot, I didn't even know there were States above the 7s now (especially if local cities are allowed to add their own on top of it, if they add the standard 2-4% range you are talking double digits sales tax).



It is a little bit more understandable in states like Nevada that have no income tax. Sales tax allows the tourists to supplement the locals.
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December 6th, 2022 at 3:59:55 PM permalink
9.75% in most of Tennessee. (of course, no State Income tax).
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December 6th, 2022 at 4:22:32 PM permalink
Responding to the poll...

New episodes of Bialik hosted syndicated Jeopardy! will begin in January.
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December 6th, 2022 at 7:07:12 PM permalink
Quote: TaxFoundation.org

Five states do not have statewide sales taxes: Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon. Of these, Alaska allows localities to charge local sales taxes.[1]

The five states with the highest average combined state and local sales tax rates are Louisiana (9.55 percent), Tennessee (9.547 percent), Arkansas (9.48 percent), Washington (9.29 percent), and Alabama (9.22 percent). The five states with the lowest average combined rates are Alaska (1.76 percent), Hawaii (4.44 percent), Wyoming (5.36 percent), Wisconsin (5.43 percent), and Maine (5.50 percent).
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Tax Foundation is non-partisan and independent. Massive amounts of data on taxes. Want to know the vape tax in Montana? They've got the latest.

When I retired and was figuring out where we wanted to live (anywhere but Jersey) I went to TF as one of many factors in the decision. Just cashed a check from the state--they had run such a surplus that they refunded everyone's state income tax. (within reason. There was a cutoff) Yeah, that was never gonna happen in Jersey.
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December 6th, 2022 at 8:39:25 PM permalink
The sales tax in Tucson is 11.1%
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December 7th, 2022 at 12:17:28 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: JohnnyQ

Also, what does BAR DOUBLE mean ?
link to original post



The woman I ate with can never order anything straight off a menu, especially drinks. There is always something special she wants added and/or removed. I would imagine that was a fee or some special request she had, but I don't recall what it was.

Axelwolf may be of more help with your question.
link to original post

I don't know, I just assume it means 2 shots instead of one, not sure why it says Bar other than the fact that it came from the bar. I know what double means, Tripple means, and proof means, neat means, straight up means, back means, chaser means, well, means, rocks. I know the basic categories, brand names, and alcohol content. and that's about it. I would probably struggle to know what each category is made of. I couldn't tell you what's in 95% of mixed drinks.

I wouldn't order a Margarita, I'm not into girly drinks(yes, it's a girl's drink to me). Most wine sucks and expensive liquor isn't worthwhile, most of it sucks as well. I wouldn't take a free expensive shot over a free cheap spiced rum. Perhaps, just to try something new, but the chances are I wouldn't care for it. I dislike most whisky, bourbon, tequila, unflavored Vodka, and scotch.

I have been comped that expensive private edition Captain Morgans and it's not as good as regular old Captain.
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December 7th, 2022 at 12:27:43 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard



I recently enjoyed a lunch at the Mona Rosa (pink monkey) in downtown Las Vegas, where I have been several times before. The name and ownership recently changed, but it seemed much the same to me. All went well until I noticed a 5% service fee added to the check. Although the service was quite good, I deducted the 5% from what I was intended to tip, so about 12%. I left cash in the folder, so don't know how my waitresses felt about it.

I post this to warn others about surprise service fees as well as to ask what you would have done in my shoes. The question for the forum is how much of a tip adjustment would you have made based on the 5% service fee?
link to original post

1st, off I wouldn't have even noticed.
2nd, it's too little of an amount to even worry about.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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December 7th, 2022 at 2:23:28 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Wizard



I recently enjoyed a lunch at the Mona Rosa (pink monkey) in downtown Las Vegas, where I have been several times before. The name and ownership recently changed, but it seemed much the same to me. All went well until I noticed a 5% service fee added to the check. Although the service was quite good, I deducted the 5% from what I was intended to tip, so about 12%. I left cash in the folder, so don't know how my waitresses felt about it.

I post this to warn others about surprise service fees as well as to ask what you would have done in my shoes. The question for the forum is how much of a tip adjustment would you have made based on the 5% service fee?
link to original post

1st, off I wouldn't have even noticed.
2nd, it's too little of an amount to even worry about.
link to original post

it's the principle that matters... the nickle and diming
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December 7th, 2022 at 3:44:15 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: JohnnyQ

Also, what does BAR DOUBLE mean ?




I assumed a "Bar Double" was a double shot of "Bar" liquor which I assumed to mean a "well" liquor as opposed to a "call" liquor. I have been involved in the bar business for over 20 years and never heard the term "Bar Double".
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December 7th, 2022 at 4:03:56 AM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ



Also, what does BAR DOUBLE mean ?



Looks like someone ordered a double drink so the price goes up but does not totally double.
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