Restaurant service fees

In retrospect, I probably should have asked to speak to the manager about it. It probably was in small print on the menu somewhere. Since the fee was specifically for "service" and the tip is supposed to already pay for that, I feel justified in deducting the fee from the tip. If the staff is not getting that 5%, they should take it up with the management. However, in light of comments here, I should have been more communicative about how I felt.

I just sent an Email to the Mona Rosa to express how I feel about the fee. I'll let you know what they say in response.

By the way, I've had almost exactly the same thing happen at an independent restaurant at the Paris, but the added fee was some kind of "strip concession fee." That was indicated in small print on the menu mixed in with the warning about pregnant women eating raw seafood and so on. When I complained about it to the manager, he deducted it from the bill. There is an old thread about it here.

Quote: Mission146

Quote: billryan

I'd ask to speak to the manager and refuse to pay it if it wasn't upfront in the printed menu.
I had a similar issue several years ago, and the credit card person told me to contest the entire bill, not just the surcharge. A few weeks later, the CCC adjusted my bill and took off the meal. I don't know if the place got paid, but if they did, it wasn't by me. I'm pretty sure that's when I was still an American Express member, and that company used to provide outstanding service.
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That's just a chargeback and the business, if they lose (or do not contest) does effectively lose that money. What happens is that the credit card company (Visa, Mastercard, Discover, Amex) will subtract the amount of your chargeback from your merchant account, which typically goes through the payment processor. I guess it's actually the payment processor that technically does it, but that's semantics.

American Express actually operates its own payment processor, so not only are processing fees on their transactions charged (any credit card does this) but they are also not paying a payment processing company a cut of that as they manage their own. Despite this, American Express gets the highest average processing fee percentage from merchants, even though they don't actually have a separate payment processing company to pay.

I suspect it is because of that American Express is really loose with crediting customers chargebacks and subtracting them from the card balance. This is usually a temporary thing until the dispute is decided, but I have heard that American Express sometimes lets it go (if you're the customer) even if AMex decides that the business was not in the wrong. They can afford to eat a few given their ridiculous processing fees.

Filing a dispute as to the entire amount was fraudulent, but it doesn't matter. You got the food and you ate the food, so the restaurant was defrauded by you at the advice of Amex if the restaurant did not end up getting paid anything. That's not a judgment when I say, "Fraudulent," because I don't care. I'm just calling it what it is. Filing a dispute to the extent of the fee would have NOT been fraudulent, imo, if you weren't made aware of the fee in advance.

It's also possible that the restaurant simply chose not to respond to the chargeback request, which may be why it took it off so quickly and was permanent. It depends on the processing company (I think?) but all I know is that when I managed the hotel you would receive a fax and would have x amount of time to respond. There's a certain irony in a company like Amex defrauding the business of the entire check as a result of the fact that you disagreed with a ridiculous fee.

Of course, I fought every single chargeback request we got, because they were all fraudulent. Either the person did not try to resolve it with the hotel directly or the franchisor, which is immediately fraudulent, or they agreed to some sort of resolution and then tried to get a chargeback anyway. What would often happen is they would get loyalty points or a free night credit, which itself gets charged to the hotel by the franchisor, would agree to whatever resolution, then still try to do a chargeback anyway.

On other occasions, they would not accept the proposed resolution and would attempt a chargeback, but I always fought and I almost never lost.

Whether or not the Amex customers thought they had won because Amex went ahead and just didn't put it back on their balance, I have no idea. As long as the hotel keeps its money, I had no reason to care. Also, I'm not to speak directly with the customer at that point, anyway.

A few times we had it where the hotel would win, now suddenly, the guest actually wants to try to come to a resolution with us. I'd usually directly tell them to F themselves and hang up on them when that happened.
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In this case, I took a group of seven or eight employees out to a Brazilian BBQ that was supposed to be all-you-can-eat and drink( soft drinks and juices). I paid extra to include sangria in the deal. It wasn't a buffet, but one of the places where waiters come around with skewers of meat. It started well, but half the waiters disappeared and after two pitchers of sangria, we were told the only person who knew how to make sangria had gone off duty and we couldn't get any more. We didn't get the food, drink or service we were promised and then they stuck on the group gratuity.
I didn't think they deserved the tip, but the rep I spoke to told me to bring up the lack of servers and the refusal to give us sangria after we were upcharged for it.

Quote: Wizard

In retrospect, I probably should have asked to speak to the manager about it. It probably was in small print on the menu somewhere. Since the fee was specifically for "service" and the tip is supposed to already pay for that, I feel justified in deducting the fee from the tip. If the staff is not getting that 5%, they should take it up with the management. However, in light of comments here, I should have been more communicative about how I felt.

I just sent an Email to the Mona Rosa to express how I feel about the fee. I'll let you know what they say in response.

By the way, I've had almost exactly the same thing happen at an independent restaurant at the Paris, but the added fee was some kind of "strip concession fee." That was indicated in small print on the menu mixed in with the warning about pregnant women eating raw seafood and so on. When I complained about it to the manager, he deducted it from the bill. There is an old thread about it here.
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Several places in The Link charge a concession fee, but my experience is they waive it if you bring it up. At the Brooklyn Bowl, I had fried chicken and the concession fee was only about forty cents so I let it go. The key may be to keep the fees low enough it seems cheap to argue over. I wasn't going to ask to speak to the manager over forty cents

That's a little bit different, so apologies for saying, "Fraudulent," Bill. Nothing in your previous post seemed to imply there was any problem with the establishment aside from the fee.

Laundry-listing is a common tactic that people do on these chargeback requests. In hotels, they often screw up and say things that can't possibly be true, or could be true, but are disprovable, when they try to do the laundry listing. They'll also complain about things as continental breakfast selection, for example, which is as it should be pursuant to our franchise rules and which they could have known ahead of time had they called the hotel and asked.

The only chargeback that I ever remember losing was when a company had an issue with the company credit card being used inappropriately and then requested chargebacks retroactive to a certain date. The hotel would have lost thousands of dollars as a result of losing that chargeback dispute.

Of course, since these were company paid rooms, I had copies of the ID's for the employees as well as copies of the credit card they used. This is why hotels do that.

With that, I took the matter to small claims court and the company settled out of court as I sued both the company as well as the individuals who stayed in their individual capacities. I did settle the matter in a fair way and only asked for the company to give me a new credit card to charge the rooms to and add, to the penny, the amount that I had spent to file the matter in court and the cost of the materials (paper, toner, mail) that I had used in suing them.

The owner of the hotel wanted more than was fair and was pretty furious that I was willing to settle for nothing more or less than what would make the hotel whole, but I told him to fire me if he didn't like it. I was the one who did all the work, so if he wanted more than what the hotel was owed, then he could do the work on it. Except, he couldn't have, because he is an idiot.

If you eat the steak, you should pay for it.

Quote: billryan

I'd ask to speak to the manager and refuse to pay it if it wasn't upfront in the printed menu.
I had a similar issue several years ago, and the credit card person told me to contest the entire bill, not just the surcharge. A few weeks later, the CCC adjusted my bill and took off the meal. I don't know if the place got paid, but if they did, it wasn't by me. I'm pretty sure that's when I was still an American Express member, and that company used to provide outstanding service.
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Over the past 20 years I have probably disputed 50 different items on my Amex bill. Only once have they not sided with me on a dispute. Great customer service.

Quote: billryan

If you eat the steak, you should pay for it.
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Another thing that would sometimes happen, with multi-night stays, is that people would request a chargeback to the extent of the entire stay.

Obviously, the counterargument to that is: If the rooms or facility were so bad, then why did they stay multiple nights? Given that they stayed multiple nights, did they do so knowing the would request a refund on the entire stay and, if so, how is that not fraudulent?

That's especially true if they complained of something that was the case on the first night of the stay. Any other nights and the hotel could say, "Well, if the nights prior to the night in question were fine, then why should the guests not pay for those?"

Even if we were a fourth-quartile hotel, which only happened one period, then the most the franchisor would ever offer is a refund of the most expensive (if there was a rate difference) night of the stay. Contractually, it was the most they could offer or, at least, the most that they could offer and bill the hotel for.

If they did a chargeback request without talking to us or the franchisor, then a multi-night chargeback request would always fail for the guest. At that point, they would complain to the franchisor, but that complaint would be dismissed, and removed from our record, because I would demonstrate to the franchisor that there had already been a chargeback request and the credit card company sided with us. At that point, the guest would sometimes contact us directly and I would tell the guest to F themselves.

If they had talked to us, or the franchisor, and did not agree to the proposed resolution and did a chargeback request, then they would always lose if it was a multi-night stay. At that point, they would usually call the franchisor again, and the franchisor would do nothing, because I would demonstrate that there was a chargeback request with the credit card company and the credit card company said we won. The guest would then contact the hotel directly, whereupon, I would tell the guest to F themselves and accept reasonable refund offers from businesses in the future when they are made.

Quote: DRich

Quote: billryan

I'd ask to speak to the manager and refuse to pay it if it wasn't upfront in the printed menu.
I had a similar issue several years ago, and the credit card person told me to contest the entire bill, not just the surcharge. A few weeks later, the CCC adjusted my bill and took off the meal. I don't know if the place got paid, but if they did, it wasn't by me. I'm pretty sure that's when I was still an American Express member, and that company used to provide outstanding service.
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Over the past 20 years I have probably disputed 50 different items on my Amex bill. Only once have they not sided with me on a dispute. Great customer service.
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Yeah, I think they just end up eating a lot of those even if the business gets paid. I very strongly suspect that because I never lost an Amex chargeback dispute. I'd remember if I did because I hate Amex.

The hotel wouldn't even have accepted Amex, except the franchise rules stated that we have to.

Sadly, CNF fees have left Vegas and are now spreading to the rest of the country. The restaurant chain Claim Jumper, for example, now charges such a fee at all its locations, posting it on the front doors and menus.

On one hand you could argue that it's a way for bars and restaurants to deal with rising costs, and really no different than a nightclub having a cover charge. On the other hand you could argue it's a ripoff for bars and restaurants to charge money for the "privilege" of spending money at their establishments.

In the end it doesn't really matter. CNF fees are here to stay and soon, when you call a manager over to have it removed, you'll just be told ... No.

Quote: Gialmere

CNF fees are here to stay and soon, when you call a manager over to have it removed, you'll just be told ... No.
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I have little problem with them as long as they are clearly disclosed. However, it makes me miss France and Germany, where the price you see is the price you pay.