Las Vegas and Clark County - unification

Since the mid 19th century USA has been experimenting with unifying cities and counties. Philadelphia City absorbed Philadelphia County in 1854, New York City absorbed 5 counties (counties=boroughs), and Nevada established Carson City as independent of any county. In recent decades several cities have merged with the unincorporated areas of their county.

Since 1950 unincorporated jurisdictions have been forming in Clark County to prevent being taken over by the city. Winchester, Paradise, Spring Valley, Enterprise, South Summerlin, Whitney, Sunrise Manor, etc. In fact the mayor of Las Vegas governs a jurisdiction that only includes maybe $1 in $8 in gaming revenue for the county. Only two casinos have been built within the city limits of Las Vegas in the last 20 years (Suncoast and Rampart Casino in Summerlin).

The incorporated cities are Henderson, North Las Vegas, Boulder City, and Mesquite.

Do you think that Clark County should merge with the city of Las Vegas? The icorporated cities would remain seperate. The merger would form a city of over 1 million people that would be one of the top 10 cities in the USA.

As a non US Citizen, the question I have to ask is "Would it make any difference?"

What would be the various benefits or downfalls of any such potential merger. As I dont really understand it I would love to know more.

Ofcourse not.
The whole idea of Bugsy Siegal going out to the middle of nowhere to build a casino was to escape the city limits. Why would the people of Hendertucky want to live in the same place as their poorer relatives in downtown Las Vegas?

Usually the only way it happens is if a majority of people in each jurisdiction votes to allow it. There has to be something beneficial for all parties for it to happen. If there is a municipality that sees there will be no gain (their higher taxes just going to subsidize a poorer area) then it usually will fail. In NJ, Princeton Township and Princeton Borough have a vote to merge every couple of years, but the Township votes it down because they don't want to pay for services for the less affluent, more college-type area in the Borough. If this interests you, you should also check out the strange "independent cities" structure in Virginia.

Quote: Croupier

As a non US Citizen, the question I have to ask is "Would it make any difference?"

I think a more appropriate question is, "Unless I live in the Vegas area, why would I care?"

It's not a pressing issue, but it brings about inefficiencies. A lot of people live in poor cities with limited geographic area, while the wealthy properties are outside of the limits. If city and county merged then the resultant city would be about the same size as Phoenix, instead of Washington DC.

Mayor Goodman doesn't really represent the casinos.

Good question. For those who don't know, the casinos on the Strip are actually not in Las Vegas. Here is a map' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://www.city-data.com/forum/las-vegas/487978-boundaries-map-las-vegas-north-las.html]map showing the boundaries. I think few locals (including me) know, or care about, the structure of government in the unincorporated cities. I'm not saying it isn't an important issue, but often the most important issues are the most boring to read about. As was already said, usually such mergers are bad for the affluent parts of town, and good for the poor parts. For that reason, I suppose would support the merger, because I live within the boundaries of Las Vegas.

Quote: Wizard

Good question. For those who don't know, the casinos on the Strip are actually not in Las Vegas.

The Stratosphere IS in the city. Right on the edge. But that's a reason visitors might support it - so we don't have to hear that our trip to Vegas didn't include Vegas!


The more I think about it, the more interesting this topic gets.

Without knowing anything about the issues, except what's been presented in this thread, I'd say it might be good for residents of the entire county, for one simple reason. Casino taxes. I gotta think that if there was a merger, casino taxes would be the first thing on the agenda.

I'm sure the casinos would be against the merger, and are lobbying against it, but if it came to a vote of the residents, the casinos have no say - except for the individual votes of the casino execs that live in the county. And then their vote is just as powerful as the average Joe's vote.



On a somewhat unrelated note, Walt Disney World exists in cities that are completely owned and run by the Disney company. Walt's original concept for EPCOT was to include 20,000 apartments, condos and homes. The 'C' stands for community. That idea was killed because the company didn't want to turn control over to the residents by giving them voter rigths.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

The Stratosphere IS in the city. Right on the edge. But that's a reason visitors might support it - so we don't have to hear that our trip to Vegas didn't include Vegas!

[..]

On a somewhat unrelated note, Walt Disney World exists in cities that are completely owned and run by the Disney company. Walt's original concept for EPCOT was to include 20,000 apartments, condos and homes. The 'C' stands for community. That idea was killed because the company didn't want to turn control over to the residents by giving them voter rigths.

Downtown is all inside Vegas, so just hop on the Deuce and get there. No excuses.

Of course Downtown and the Strip don't just feel like different cities, but like different worlds altogether. If you visit both places the same day, which is easy, you feel a bit like visiting parallel universes ;)

As to EPCOT, the full name is "Experimental Prototype Community Of Tomorrow." It was one of Walt Disney's wilder ideas. Considering the man's record, that says a lot. I think mostly the idea fell apart because construction on EPCOT started long after Disney's death.

BTW EPCOT isn't what it used to be, either. But that's a whole different topic.

Vegas sometimes feels like an open theme park for adults already. There are even rides, shows and lots of places to eat (the average buffet is both an attraction and a place to eat). All that's missing is a fireworks show or a parade in the evening. So how about selling the whole Strip to one company and let them run it like an amusement park with casinos?

Serious question: do strip casinos pay property taxes, and who do they pay them to?

Quote: Nareed

As to EPCOT, the full name is "Experimental Prototype Community Of Tomorrow." It was one of Walt Disney's wilder ideas. Considering the man's record, that says a lot. I think mostly the idea fell apart because construction on EPCOT started long after Disney's death.

BTW EPCOT isn't what it used to be, either. But that's a whole different topic.

Serious question: do strip casinos pay property taxes, and who do they pay them to?

I think besides the HOA thing bringing down EPCOT was that Walt's idea was that the people in the condos were to have had very strict codes to live by. Never heard what they were, but imaging your HOA then imagine it even more controlling than it is by a factor fo 10. Add that to how remote you would be living, Disnet trffic, and those condos look more like a way to get you to be the attraction at a zoo. Personally I think it would have gotten old after a few weeks and EPCOT was always my favorite park there.

BTW: The problem is EPCOT was about "tomorrow" but being built in 1982, it IS tomorrow.

Epcot: I had read somewhere, in a Disney coffee table book, that the topic of voter rights came up while Walt was still alive.

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Vegas: When I mentioned taxes, I was really referring to casino gambling taxes. I.E. A separate tax that only affects casinos. Sure, property taxes can be thrown in the mix, but....

Quote: Croupier

As a non US Citizen, the question I have to ask is "Would it make any difference?"

What would be the various benefits or downfalls of any such potential merger. As I dont really understand it I would love to know more.

I don't know how it works in other countries but here in the USA we developed a state/county/city system of government. States are usually understandable to foreigners but the county/city thing goes way back. And different states treat counties differently.

Here in the east, counties keep the records of land ownership and regulate what is too big for the city but too small for the state. Most counties have many divisions under names line city, borough, village, coropration, town, township, etc. In the east this goes way back to when a settlement had enough people to take care of "local" issues. Local police, building codes, and schools were handled locally. "Local Pride" runs deep because people like their small-town culture. Most counties are fairly large geographically.

When you get to the middle of the USA and places like Kansas, Nebraska, etc, counties are smaller geographically but fewer "towns." There the county handles almost everything. When I call to get property tax info I almost never have to call the township.

Then west of the rockies it changes again. In places like AZ counties are huge geographically and so are the cities in comparrison to back east. Then again, so are the states. Conties still handle more "local" issues as well.

Now that I exlained how a watch works when you asked for the time, here is why it is important. Way back the city was only so big but the county was larger. (New York is the only city I know of that is larger than its five counties. Tearkana is the only city in more than one state.) The county covered the "sticks" where few people lived before WWII, espically in the west. As the USA became suburban the wealthy moved out of the "city" to a borough or unincorporated area and let the county run things.

So you get a drain of the highest taxpayers but leave behind those taking up the most government services. Cities in the USA are going broke while their neighbors get accused of commuting to them to work but paying no taxes. Soon the mayor of a city says, "lets merge!"

As an out-of-city resident I won't usually want this. My schools are probably better and crime is likely lower. No incentive to merge. Even if you would remove redundant service departments like the cops and sewer authority it still isn't worth it. Now, sometimes the unincorporated area is too small to be viable. Sometimes the city can just disincorporate and the county gets stuck with it. This is rare.

What is funny is that as the USA gets larger population-wise some places still shrink and the town that did fine in 1810 is too small to make it in 2010.

Quote: AZDuffman

Now that I exlained how a watch works when you asked for the time...

Nice. I gotta remember that line.

Quote: AZDuffman

Tearkana is the only city in more than one state.

I think you meant Texarkana. And there are others. Kansas City springs to mind. But they are all two cities, with seperate governments.

From Wikipedia:
The Texarkana, TX-Texarkana, AR Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA), as defined by the United States Office of Management and Budget, is a two-county region anchored by the twin cities of Texarkana, Texas and Texarkana, Arkansas, and encompassing the surrounding communities in Bowie County, Texas and Miller County, Arkansas.


There are many such twin cities in the US and elsewhere:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_cities_(geographical_proximity)

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: AZDuffman

Now that I exlained how a watch works when you asked for the time...

Nice. I gotta remember that line.

Quote: AZDuffman

Tearkana is the only city in more than one state.

I think you meant Texarkana. And there are others. Kansas City springs to mind. But they are all two cities, with seperate governments.

From Wikipedia:
The Texarkana, TX-Texarkana, AR Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA), as defined by the United States Office of Management and Budget, is a two-county region anchored by the twin cities of Texarkana, Texas and Texarkana, Arkansas, and encompassing the surrounding communities in Bowie County, Texas and Miller County, Arkansas.


There are many such twin cities in the US and elsewhere:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_cities_(geographical_proximity)

Yes, Texarkana. My typing is sometimes more fast than acurate. Texarkana is contiguous cities KC is more a "metro area." Not sure how it works but I read once it was the only "bistate" city in the USA." I didn't research any further to see how it functioned. Now I see it has two seperate mayors but shares some federal installations.

The two main reasons for unification is to eliminate a layer of government where none is perceived to be needed, and to put the wealthy suburbs under the same government as the inner city.

Las Vegas in particular really knocks itself out trying to preserve it's old Fremont Street core because it has so few casinos inside the city limits. Without the huge infusions of city money, Fremont street in it's present form probably wouldn't exist.

In the 19th century
1) Denver City, & Arapahoe County
2) City and County of Honolulu, Hawaii[5]
3) City of New Orleans and Orleans Parish, Louisiana
4) City and County of San Francisco, California
5) City and county of Philadelphia
6) City of NYC, and the five counties/boroughs

Some cities are independent of counties like Carson City, NV and Baltimore MD. Most of the major cities in VA are not part of the county system.

Mergers have happened in a few places around the country.
Total mergers include:
# Anaconda and Deer Lodge County, Montana
# Butte and Silver Bow County, Montana
# Columbus and Muscogee County, Georgia
# Cusseta and Chattahoochee County, Georgia
# Georgetown and Quitman County, Georgia
# Hartsville and Trousdale County, Tennessee
# Houma and Terrebonne Parish, Louisiana
# Lexington and Fayette County, Kentucky
# Lynchburg and Moore County, Tennessee
# Tribune, Kansas and Greeley County, Kansas

Mergers of major city with part of the county are:
# Athens and Clarke County, Georgia
(one community entirely within Clarke County retains a separate government)
# Augusta and Richmond County, Georgia
(two communities within Richmond County retain separate governments)
# Baton Rouge and East Baton Rouge Parish, Louisiana
(City of Baton Rouge retains separate city limits, and official census population only includes this area)
# Camden County, North Carolina
(County with no incorporated municipalities, apart from a small portion of Elizabeth City re-organizing into a single unified government)
# Indianapolis and Marion County, Indiana
(four communities within Marion County retain separate governments: see Unigov)
# Jacksonville and Duval County, Florida
(four incorporated places within Duval County retain separate governments, including the cities of Jacksonville Beach, Neptune Beach, and Atlantic Beach, and the town of Baldwin; all other rural land is incorporated by Jacksonville, preventing any annexation by them)
# Kansas City and Wyandotte County, Kansas
(this "Unified Government" contains Kansas City, Bonner Springs, Edwardsville, and roughly half of Lake Quivira; a county relationship is maintained with the rest of the communities within the county)
# Lafayette Parish, Louisiana and Lafayette
(City of Lafayette retains separate city limits, and official census population only includes this area)
# Louisville and Jefferson County, Kentucky
(all cities in pre-merger Jefferson County, other than Louisville, retain separate identities and some governmental functions, but all participate fully in the county-wide governing body, Louisville Metro Council)
# Nashville and Davidson County, Tennessee
(seven communities within Davidson County retain separate governments, although all participate in the metropolitan government in a two-tier system)

Of course, one aspect of Clark County government has already merged, which no one has brought up - Las Vegas Metro Police is a combination of the Clark County Sheriff's Department (elected, as are most Western sheriffs) and the Las Vegas Police Department. Unlike a contract city operation, financial oversight of Metro PD comes from both the City of Las Vegas and Clark County. You could extend the Indianapolis model to Clark County, where you have the county getting more powers while each municipality has some self rule. You have the city itself and then the "balance".

Here's a bit of trivia: Way back when, the city of Las Vegas could have absorbed Paradise if it had been willing to provide services (mainly water).

Given that Vegas is in one of those places where the counties tend to take more responsibility, the question here might be, what does the City of Las Vegas do that the rest of the county might benefit from consolidating? I imagine most services, taxation, etc., are managed mainly on the county level already, so there might not be a huge amount of actual substance to the City of Las Vegas government.

Quote: bgriffin

Given that Vegas is in one of those places where the counties tend to take more responsibility, the question here might be, what does the City of Las Vegas do that the rest of the county might benefit from consolidating?

Like many places in the USA, the primary beneficiary would be the city of Las Vegas. The outlying county has less poverty stricken areas, more casinos and more jobs.

The county would probably benefit from some economy of scale.

Paradise, Winchester, and the other unincorporated areas were set up primarily so that the city could not as easily abosrb their land.

That said, if the county allows the city to decay into poverty and desperation, it is impossible to believe that there will not be any economic feedback to the county. Half the population of Wayne County lives in Detroit. At least 1/3 of the population of Clark County lives in the City of Las Vegas.

It strikes you immediately that the two badly decaying casino areas (Downtown and the Northern part of the strip) are only 2 miles apart, yet they are attempting the same types of projects (like building a stadium) to shore up the economy. They are in competition largely because of differing local governments.