strategizing with 2 people or more in Baccarat: is that considered cheating?

Hi,
I'm new to this so I apologize if I've posted this in the wrong part of the forum. I've been to the Wizard of Odds website and others and it's been mentioned that it doesn't matter if you count cards so you can't really cheat in baccarat. What about if you use two or more people to come up with a strategy that works? Does that count as cheating? Like if one person only bets on Banker and the other person only bets on player and sometimes they bet equal amounts so the bets cancel (the winner gets the losers money, thus the casino doesn't take the loosing bet). Will the casinos get pissed and kick the players out for canceling bets or working together to win money? Or if they were to win a lot of money will the casinos use that as an excuse? That there's no cooperating allowed or something like that? And I'm not talking about using devices and marked cards or corrupt dealers to cheat, I'm just asking if teamwork would be in a sense considered cheating? Especially since it might waste a good amount of hands cancelling bets. Also, is there anyway that you can cheat in Baccarat without the help of devices and corrupt dealers?

It wouldn't accomplish anything because there is no strategy to baccarat. If you bet $100 on banker and your friend bets $100 on player, then the two of you will collectively either win nothing, or lose $5, every single hand. There would be no chance to come out ahead (unless betting different amounts and getting lucky), but overall the house edge would remain the same and you will lose in the long run.

But would the players get kicked out or banned if they used it? Even in commission? And they wouldn't use it every turn. Just like every 3 or 4 turns they'll use it again.

Quote: John98

Like if one person only bets on Banker and the other person only bets on player and sometimes they bet equal amounts so the bets cancel (the winner gets the losers money, thus the casino doesn't take the loosing bet).

You are forgetting that wins pay a commission, thus it is not a wash, but a guaranteed win for the casino each round. Edit: not sure about 'each round' after reading the comment above.

Quote: John98

Is there anyway that you can cheat in Baccarat without the help of devices and corrupt dealers?

You need to get the idea of "cheating" out of your mind, soul, and life. If you like, start advocating that you are an "advantage player" using legal, fair practice to get an edge. You can get an advantage if you have a flashing dealer. Also there is a side bet that is said to be countable.

Be aware that casinos do not like advantage players, even when it is fair and legal; these practices are 'not on the up and up with them', if you want to put it that way.

Sorry. I'm not intending on cheating. I was just wondering if I'd get in trouble for teamwork or cancelling bets. I thought that maybe casinos do what ever they can to make sure the winner doesn't walk out with their money. Or that they're not patient with players that slowly loose.

Oh and I'm not as experienced in gambling. I was thinking since you can bet on either player or banker maybe it was possible to take advantage of it if more people were involved. Then I started to get the idea that casinos wouldn't like that.

Thank you for the quick replies.

I was playing Texas Hold'em Bonus at the Riviera and my friend and I compared hands before the flop every hand. You'r not supposed to see the other players cards because that's would be a great advantage to you. None of the dealers corrected us and we were quite open about it since I was teaching my friend what bets to make and when. I don't think it contributed to us winning though as I was making my bets and suggesting his bets as if we were not looking at each other's hands. But there were times I would have lost less, had I folded based on what I knew.

If that didn't make the casino notice, then your betting strategy isn't going to matter at all.

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The only thing canceling (I use one L with canceling, because I enjoy it) your bets with the other person helps with is getting comps. I imagine if you and your friend were playing 4 hours of $100 bac together you would enjoy good treatment. I believe it would help if they didn't know you guys were working as a team though. You would probably receive nothing if they did.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Knowing your friends or neighbors cards in hold-em bonus, UTH or other such games is not an advantage to you as you are not his/her opponent but rather the dealers instead.

I disagree with this statement, although I think it is probably effectively the case.

For example, if you have the 7 and 8 of spades in your hand, and your friend has the Ace and 9 of spades in his hand, and the board contains the K,Q,J of spades, you know that the dealer cannot make a Straight Flush or Royal Flush, and that therefore your flush is likely to beat the dealer unless they manage to make a Full House or Four of a Kind.

In other words, seeing cards that could help your opponent (the dealer) in someone else's hand can be helpful to you...but the majority of the time, having such information is probably not going to change your strategy decision.

I was in Atlantic City this past weekend. While at a craps table, people were talking about the "big hit" a casino recently took at a Baccarat table.

Mind you I have no idea if this is true, or where or when this took place, but this is the story that I pieced together:

There was a problem with the shuffler, and it got a Red Light. Apparently, the dealer or floorperson tried to fix it, but by the time the active shoe was finished, the problem wasn't solved.

Somehow, the decision was made to use the partially shuffled, red light shoe.

You know how Baccarat players scribble notes on every hand? It didn't take the players there very long to discover that the deck hadn't been shuffled at all.


Anybody wanna play Baccarat where they know the sequence of the entire shoe? Don't sprain yourself raising your arm so fast!

I seriously doubt the truth in this story. I was at a blackjack table in Bally's AC when an 8 deck shuffler got the "red light". The dealer repeatedly tried to get the floorperson's attention, but the shoe was almost done by the time the pit boss arrived and fixed the machine. I don't think dealers can touch a malfunctioning shuffler, possibly because they'd be handling cards from two different sets at the same time? She told him to just hand shuffle, rather than wait for the machine to finish up. I would imagine in (mini) Baccarat, they'd do the same thing, just have the dealer hand shuffle.

Two other things make me think this is fiction. First, if the shuffler malfunctioned, there could be a stuck card. So, wouldn't the dealer have to count the whole shoe to make sure all the cards were there? Considering how superstitious baccarat players are, I think they would demand to know they have a complete shoe. Secondly, the batch shufflers have an "in" drawer and an "out" drawer. Wouldn't the dealer have noticed if all the cards were still in the "in" drawer that little to no shuffling took place? In a game with such high stakes, I just don't see a dealer saying "Oh, hell with it, just use those cards anyway".

I question the validity of the story too. But assuming it is true....

I didn't find out where it took place, but I got the feeling that it was at a new casino, perhaps an Indian casino where "rules" are made up as they go along.

Quote: silversonic2006

Considering how superstitious baccarat players are, I think they would demand to know they have a complete shoe.

While I agree with this sentiment, I would have to think that if the story were true, the players would encourage the casino to use the cards as is, hoping that it was a partially shuffled deck, and that they can ustilize the notes they have written down.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I was in Atlantic City this past weekend. While at a craps table, people were talking about the "big hit" a casino recently took at a Baccarat table!

So probably the story started out with some measure of truth to it but morphed into a vague form utterly unprovable and less and less likely to have actually taken place.

You would have had to have the dumbest dealer on duty with the dumbest floorperson for this event to have actually taken place. Admitedly its not impossible, just darned unlikely to have actually taken place.

I don't know how often couples Straddle a mini-bacc table so as to raise their comp ratings. I'd like to find out more about that sort of thing. They each show up at the table, present different players cards, with different names and utterly dissimilar numbers on them, pretend ignorance of each other's identities, ... and just happen to consistently stay with one or the other hand. Its clear that their net result is that they are really "losing" the five percent commission on the Bankers hand. If they each bet equal but high amounts the casino will view them as two unrelated players who should be well comped.

After having established this "well comped" status by each of them playing three black chips each hand at MiniBacc, they then separate and say one goes off to play the Penny Slots while the other goes off and plays Lowest Minimum Blackjack. Aside from any interaction at the MiniBacc table, their later behavior might tip off the casino's marketing department.

Do such ploys really take place and do they work? I know one couple that kept separate cards with separate names and because she was mainly a slot player she got better room deals. Often they would be able to do free rooms Back to Back, so they would do one "check out" which would simply be out of a room under his name and into a room under her name.

Ofcourse from the casinos point of view, its of no great concern to them if two people with equal and opposite bets at Baccarat are spouses, friends, enemies or strangers... the casino looks only at the chips! Its solely for marketing purposes that the casino would care.