Are Vegas casinos stacking the odds?

In the January, 2010 issue of Popular Mechanics there is an excellent article on modern casino surveillance. One of the tips mentioned is that some casinos (they mention Wynn) use invisibly bar-coded cards. A machine (that they claim is no longer used) keeps a running tabulation of the dealer's cards as they are dealt. It can then warn the dealer when conditions are more advantageous to the player (card counting) so that the dealer can choose when to shuffle the deck. Do you think that this is going to become another trend like 6 to 5 on blackjack?

Quote: thx1138

In the January, 2010 issue of Popular Mechanics there is an excellent article on modern casino surveillance. One of the tips mentioned is that some casinos (they mention Wynn) use invisibly bar-coded cards. A machine (that they claim is no longer used) keeps a running tabulation of the dealer's cards as they are dealt. It can then warn the dealer when conditions are more advantageous to the player (card counting) so that the dealer can choose when to shuffle the deck. Do you think that this is going to become another trend like 6 to 5 on blackjack?

Maybe, but I do not think so. Autoshuffle is easier and moreeffective. Also the rent on the machine would have to justify it. Autoshuffle speeds up the game for the casino where the bar coder would not.

I think there was a machine marketed under the name MindPlay that basically allowed the casino to count cards and let the dealer know what the count was. I think someone brought an enforcement action before the Gaming Board about it, but don't recall the outcome. It did seem unfair for the casino to aggressively eject card counters while then becoming an expert and ultrareliable card counter. I think the initial decision of the Board rested on a narrow definition as the casino was not a player of blackjack, only the casino patrons were players.

In theory they could use the codes as a que to shuffle the deck because the card count is getting too high. In reality they don't do this. Since players can easily see the dealer shuffling the deck way too soon, it is not worth the ill will such a move would create.
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However, you can use the data to instantly catch some cheating, in particular any dealer collusion that is involved in some cheating scheme. Because you know the order after the shuffle you can instantly detect dealing off the bottom of the deck (as a simple example). You can also detect dealers who shuffle and leave what is known as a "slug" or a group of unshuffled cards. Although there are other ways to detect these cheats, the bar codes allow instant recognition before any money is stolen.
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You can program the machine to recognize unusual play that statistically means the player is cheating. He has some information either from dealer collusion or a compatriot who stands across the room and sees the cards being dealt. He then signals the player.

This was definitely mindplay. If used for preferential shuffling decisions, it changes the game overall so that there is no longer a fair game based on normal distribtion of cards in a 52-card deck. It is similar to the casinos that used to deal from a 'short' deck by removing 10s or aces when somebody was winning too much.

Not only is it a blantantly obvious card counting device that keeps a perfect count (unlike hi-lo or anything else which is an approximation) but it also hurts each and every player, whether they are counting, playing basic strategy, or playing poorly.

This is nothing like some rule change like 6:5, this is cheating. If done by a player it would put them in jail. How these machines were ever allowed to exist is absolutely beyond me. Shows the attitude of some casinos that they think can do whatever they want, laws be dammed.

For further clarification, what the machine can do is instruct the dealer to shuffle early when the count is good for the player, and play deeper in the shoe when it is poor for the player (and keep playing until it becomes neutral or good). Averaged over many shoes, this would have the exact same effect as playing from a short deck and is easily a significant advantage for the casino.

Well if it's gonna nickle and dime you or be schiesty (is that a word if not it should be) Steve Wynn will do it.

There was an article on mindplay technology in USA about 5-6 years ago. Mindplay never became very popular because players didn't trust it and it is relatively expensive. It would be cheaper in most cases to install an electronic system to keep track of bets and payouts instead of using chips. Chips are difficult to keep track of for "comps" and they are subject to the most common kind of cheating where the player "tops" a winning hand. However, since most people are comfortable with chips, they have not been replaced.
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In reality while there are cheating schemes that involve manipulating the cards (dealing slugs for instance) they are very difficult to do and easily discovered using conventional surveillance. I actually think that Mindplay was abandoned. One rumor was that the dealers and pit bosses would sabotage the machines because they were afraid it would eliminate jobs.
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Every gambling technological advancement can be dropped if it scares away players.

Shoes that detect the card dealt out of the shoe *are* used in Baccarat to disprove cheating. Shufflemaster sells such a shoe. I haven't seen it in use at Blackjack.

Quote: boymimbo

Shoes that detect the card dealt out of the shoe *are* used in Baccarat to disprove cheating. Shufflemaster sells such a shoe. I haven't seen it in use at Blackjack.

It is also used in 3 Card Poker. If someone is dealt a Mini Royal the machine can verify it to ensure that players didn't switch cards, etc.

Inasmuch as the economy for gambling has ebbed (sportsbook excepted), and the loans are due for a payment, I'm not surprised to read about ths topic. Its gets bad when one is accused of "pushing a combination of buttons" that allows one a win. I have heard of this, and micro-printing ranks on the backs of cards (magnetic ink as a 2nd feature), as methods used to track cards by the House. Nevada Gaming Law basically states in roundabout fashion that neither the House or Customer can track the cards "physically". In your head yes, pen and paper no, computerized counting no (requires a "physical" or tangible device). Not to mention that the ink is tangible, *and* tracks the card(s).

Counterpoint: If you're at an Indian Reservation... expect anything since its Sovereign territory, and not necessarily subject to State Gaming Law let alone Nevada State Gamming Rules. Caveat Emptor.

N&B

I think Mindplay was perfectly legal in Nevada, unfortunately. It is unfair that players can't use a "device" to count the cards, but the casinos can.

Also, I wouldn't avoid playing at an Indian casino because of a perceived lack of regulation. I have played in lots of them and never had a problem. If anything, I think they might try harder to give the player the benefit of the doubt, because they pretty much have to keep themselves honest. In my opinion, regulation here in Nevada has been pretty loose in recent years. The casinos know it, and are exploiting it.

Thanks much, I have no choice but Indian Casino's locally. And I do trust them for an honest game. Frankly, I haven't been to LV since 2005, but was a twice a year tourist in the 80's and early 90's. (Set me up anywhere, I'm goin to Benny's :D )

N&B

Quote: Wizard

I wouldn't avoid playing at an Indian casino because of a perceived lack of regulation. I have played in lots of them and never had a problem.

In a certain sense an Indian casino can be looked at as if it were a slot machine. Slot machine chips are manufactured to meet the standards of Nevada and if those chips are sold elsewhere that distant casino will still have the same innards because the distant casino simply lacks the ability to monkey around with things.
In the same way, the Indian casinos that have no oversight have no reason to be any better or worse than a Las Vegas casino.

There have been slot machine payouts declared to be malfunctions in Nevada and also in Indian casinos. Atleast in Nevada there is an established appeal process, in the Indian casinos once they say 'malfunction' thats pretty much it. Still, they are probably telling the truth about it when they say malfunction, but there is no oversight, just a rubber stamp wielded by the tribe itself.

There have been automobile injuries on casino properties. Indian casinos say "sovereign immunity and go hire a lawyer approved by the Tribe and sue in Tribal Court". If you have a premises liability problem in Nevada, good luck with it, but atleast Nevada law applies. If you allege inadequate security at an Indian casino contributed to a woman being abducted and murdered, the casino will say that Indian law rather than California law applies.

Yet, lawsuits and jackpot claims are exceptional incidents. The main difference that I've perceived is a difference in attitudes. Most Indian casinos are monopolies and their comp systems reflect that. Many Indian casinos lack highly trained dealers, but then of course so do a few Las Vegas casinos.

For reasons of geography, I've played at an Indian casino. IF I could have walked right next door to a different casino, I probably would have done so on several of my visits, but not all of them. The trouble is, in reality there is only an Indian casino or a several hour plane trip to Las Vegas.

If my local Indian casino did not have a monopoly, would they better comps and more pleasant floormen? I don't know but I tend to think so.

And yet the Indian casinos that are a bit of a drive are better the near by boats.

Quote: Wizard

I think Mindplay was perfectly legal in Nevada

I realize this is a 2 year old thread that was bumped, but the way mind play was being used was NOT legal. The casino industry claimed the purpose of mindplay was not to shuffle away disadvantage situations, but rather to accurately determine amounts bet by the player for...um... comp purposes. (in addition to cards, chips wagered were also read by software). Gaming, who never rules against the casino industry (the hand that feeds it), did so in this case, at least partially. The ruling was that they could track the play but had to use a delay. I forget the exact number of hands. 15? 18? 20? hand delay...something like that. This would allow mindplay to still be used for the purposes that the casino industry claimed, but this delay would stop them from shuffling away disadvantage situations. Funny thing....after this ruling, Mindplay kind of faded away. It no longer was so important to accurately determine the player bet size for....um... comp purposes. lol