iambabyd
iambabyd
Joined: Feb 28, 2011
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March 3rd, 2011 at 8:20:53 AM permalink
Having worked (and played) at both, I can 100% say that advantage play (or any play, really) would be better at a casino where dealers keep their own tips. There are a couple major reasons:

1. Dealers can't change what the next card is, but they can absolutely protect you (without cheating) and will if you are taking care of them. In a pool joint, the dealers won't go out of their way. When working for their own, they can do many things, such as their influence over decisions, ignoring obvious advantage play as opposed to alerting the floorperson when they get off the game, the penetration of the deck, encouraging/not encouraging players to enter the game, alerting you of a possible mistake instead of dealing like a robot (as in, you have 8-4 and put up a DD bet during a long session because you're tired).

2. Floorpeople who also deal (dual-rate) in a go-for-your-own joint don't want to hurt their own income so any dealer errors or issues will almost always go into the players favor. What a difference a saved big bet is when the floorperson says, "go ahead and push the hand" versus, "sorry, our rules state that the card must play".

It may cost a few extra dollars but I really believe that the money in protection is well served. I can tell you that there are a lot of dealers who if they have players at their game who act like a**holes, stiff everyone, berate dealers and players, and are just generally miserable, that a lot more "errors" occur. The "oops" I dropped the shoe at a true +8 kind of errors.
Founder and Editor-in-Chief, GamblersGrind.com and HoopsHabit.com.
teddys
teddys
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March 3rd, 2011 at 9:58:09 AM permalink
Without giving too many details of your employment, how can you tell if a store is pooled or go-for-your-own?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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March 3rd, 2011 at 10:03:29 AM permalink
Since most poker rooms are go-for-your-own, it's easy to see: The dealers carry their tip container with them from table to table. Of course, in some poker rooms in Vegas, the tips go right into their pockets!

The same observations can be made for the rest of the casino.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗
iambabyd
iambabyd
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March 3rd, 2011 at 10:22:16 AM permalink
I was talking about blackjack, but yes, the dealers will carry individual boxes instead of taking the tips and dropping them into a shared container. Also, just ask. Dealers love talking about tips :)
Founder and Editor-in-Chief, GamblersGrind.com and HoopsHabit.com.
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
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March 3rd, 2011 at 11:10:45 AM permalink
Quote: iambabyd

Having worked (and played) at both, I can 100% say that advantage play (or any play, really) would be better at a casino where dealers keep their own tips. There are a couple major reasons:

1. Dealers can't change what the next card is, but they can absolutely protect you (without cheating) and will if you are taking care of them. In a pool joint, the dealers won't go out of their way. When working for their own, they can do many things, such as their influence over decisions, ignoring obvious advantage play as opposed to alerting the floorperson when they get off the game, the penetration of the deck, encouraging/not encouraging players to enter the game, alerting you of a possible mistake instead of dealing like a robot (as in, you have 8-4 and put up a DD bet during a long session because you're tired).

2. Floorpeople who also deal (dual-rate) in a go-for-your-own joint don't want to hurt their own income so any dealer errors or issues will almost always go into the players favor. What a difference a saved big bet is when the floorperson says, "go ahead and push the hand" versus, "sorry, our rules state that the card must play".

It may cost a few extra dollars but I really believe that the money in protection is well served. I can tell you that there are a lot of dealers who if they have players at their game who act like a**holes, stiff everyone, berate dealers and players, and are just generally miserable, that a lot more "errors" occur. The "oops" I dropped the shoe at a true +8 kind of errors.



So we should pay protection money to the dealer like the mom and pop store pays to the neighborhood gang? Nice try but I'll pass. I'm perfectly capable of protecting myself. If you feel the need to drop the shoe go right ahead. I'm still going to get my share.

Thanks for reminding me why I'm a lousy tipper and proud of it!
iambabyd
iambabyd
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March 3rd, 2011 at 11:27:36 AM permalink
Hmm..no, that's not it. It's taking care of people in the tipping profession that take care of you. Please understand there's an enormous difference between total george and stiff. People who are george will inevitably go broke because of their generosity. God bless em, but they won't be playing long like that. I applaud you for being proud of your habits but remind you that $5 an hour isn't a living wage. The idea of the post is not a gang-related threat as you inferred but rather something to make you feel better about separating yourself from your gambling money so that you wouldn't feel like you're wasting it. Do you feel the same about tipping in all professions, if I may ask?

Side note:
As somebody who has both been in the profession from a dealing standpoint to a shift manager standpoint and been on the "professional" playing side of things for the last 15 years, I feel knowledgable enough about today's games to see it from both sides of the equation. The house views you as undesirable if you are an advantage player. The dealers view you as undesireable if you are a stiff. I believe it is a good idea to stay under the radar by blending in and making friends as opposed to enemies. To each their own, though.
Founder and Editor-in-Chief, GamblersGrind.com and HoopsHabit.com.
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
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March 3rd, 2011 at 2:31:25 PM permalink
Quote: iambabyd

Hmm..no, that's not it. It's taking care of people in the tipping profession that take care of you. Please understand there's an enormous difference between total george and stiff. People who are george will inevitably go broke because of their generosity. God bless em, but they won't be playing long like that. I applaud you for being proud of your habits but remind you that $5 an hour isn't a living wage. The idea of the post is not a gang-related threat as you inferred but rather something to make you feel better about separating yourself from your gambling money so that you wouldn't feel like you're wasting it. Do you feel the same about tipping in all professions, if I may ask?

Side note:
As somebody who has both been in the profession from a dealing standpoint to a shift manager standpoint and been on the "professional" playing side of things for the last 15 years, I feel knowledgable enough about today's games to see it from both sides of the equation. The house views you as undesirable if you are an advantage player. The dealers view you as undesireable if you are a stiff. I believe it is a good idea to stay under the radar by blending in and making friends as opposed to enemies. To each their own, though.



I didn't say how I feel about tipping. I was merely making the point that I will not be intimidated, threatened or blackmailed by the dealer. I tip the customary amount in all professions and even tip dealers after losing if I feel they deserve it. They don't make me win and they don't make me lose. When I do tip, it's always upon coloring up so what's the point of dropping the shoe or displaying other hostile treatment? You're the one who mentioned "money in protection" hence my gang reference.

I wish I could believe that tipping could keep a card counter under the radar but I don't. If a skills check identifies a counter and the casino decides to take action, no amount of tipping is going to change that. The fact is that since most counters are tolerated, they'll never know if tipping actually works in that regard.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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March 3rd, 2011 at 2:38:07 PM permalink
My understanding is that most casinos are tip-pooling for everyone except the poker room dealers.
Darn few joints are TFT (Table For Table) places anymore. Now I'm not one to start needless to-and-fro arguments about which is better or why. The point is that few TFT places exist and that most everyone is Tip Sharing which dilutes tips and makes everyone think that he and he alone is pulling all the others who are nothing but freeloading dead weight.

Irrespective of the truth or falsity in such TFT assumptions, there are simply too few of them. Oh, sure... if you happen to have one nearby, so be it. Go for it. Irrespective of the effect on BJ dealers, the TFT status probably won't last long.
iambabyd
iambabyd
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March 3rd, 2011 at 2:47:15 PM permalink
Flea- I definitely agree with you. When there isn't a quantifiable measuring stick, as in pool joints, everyone feels like they're pulling the dead weight. And, TFT doesn't generally last too long because it really brings out the hustling-type dealers and a lot of negativity that goes along with it. With that said, the casinos in the Phoenix area are all TFT and are tribal owned. The reason I put that in there is because a large amount of the dealers are tribal and enjoy the TFT and would throw a fit if it were to be changed. Blackjack has been here 7 years now and as those who work here would say, the (tribal) dealers run the joint.
Founder and Editor-in-Chief, GamblersGrind.com and HoopsHabit.com.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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March 3rd, 2011 at 3:36:49 PM permalink
Well, I hope TFT doesn't make it too bad an atmosphere, usually it provides incentive to do a good job but not ream the players.
Anyway, if its been TFT for seven years its likely to stay that way, so I guess Arizona is an enclave that is immune from the more standard management decisions of Tip Pooling.

Now as to whether it is "better" to count cards in a TFT joint, I guess its certainly not going to be worse. A guy who is getting X tips and knows that "X means X" is going to react differently than a guy who gets X in tip money and knows that by the time the sharing is all done with he will be lucky to get seventy percent of X will probably think differently.

The trouble is that the primary motivation will come from how the dealer thinks the floor will react to his NOT alerting the casino to the activities of a card counter. That is probably going to be the primary motivator.

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