Better to count at tip-pooling casino or keep their own?

Having worked (and played) at both, I can 100% say that advantage play (or any play, really) would be better at a casino where dealers keep their own tips. There are a couple major reasons:

1. Dealers can't change what the next card is, but they can absolutely protect you (without cheating) and will if you are taking care of them. In a pool joint, the dealers won't go out of their way. When working for their own, they can do many things, such as their influence over decisions, ignoring obvious advantage play as opposed to alerting the floorperson when they get off the game, the penetration of the deck, encouraging/not encouraging players to enter the game, alerting you of a possible mistake instead of dealing like a robot (as in, you have 8-4 and put up a DD bet during a long session because you're tired).

2. Floorpeople who also deal (dual-rate) in a go-for-your-own joint don't want to hurt their own income so any dealer errors or issues will almost always go into the players favor. What a difference a saved big bet is when the floorperson says, "go ahead and push the hand" versus, "sorry, our rules state that the card must play".

It may cost a few extra dollars but I really believe that the money in protection is well served. I can tell you that there are a lot of dealers who if they have players at their game who act like a**holes, stiff everyone, berate dealers and players, and are just generally miserable, that a lot more "errors" occur. The "oops" I dropped the shoe at a true +8 kind of errors.

Without giving too many details of your employment, how can you tell if a store is pooled or go-for-your-own?

Since most poker rooms are go-for-your-own, it's easy to see: The dealers carry their tip container with them from table to table. Of course, in some poker rooms in Vegas, the tips go right into their pockets!

The same observations can be made for the rest of the casino.

I was talking about blackjack, but yes, the dealers will carry individual boxes instead of taking the tips and dropping them into a shared container. Also, just ask. Dealers love talking about tips :)

Quote: iambabyd

Having worked (and played) at both, I can 100% say that advantage play (or any play, really) would be better at a casino where dealers keep their own tips. There are a couple major reasons:

1. Dealers can't change what the next card is, but they can absolutely protect you (without cheating) and will if you are taking care of them. In a pool joint, the dealers won't go out of their way. When working for their own, they can do many things, such as their influence over decisions, ignoring obvious advantage play as opposed to alerting the floorperson when they get off the game, the penetration of the deck, encouraging/not encouraging players to enter the game, alerting you of a possible mistake instead of dealing like a robot (as in, you have 8-4 and put up a DD bet during a long session because you're tired).

2. Floorpeople who also deal (dual-rate) in a go-for-your-own joint don't want to hurt their own income so any dealer errors or issues will almost always go into the players favor. What a difference a saved big bet is when the floorperson says, "go ahead and push the hand" versus, "sorry, our rules state that the card must play".

It may cost a few extra dollars but I really believe that the money in protection is well served. I can tell you that there are a lot of dealers who if they have players at their game who act like a**holes, stiff everyone, berate dealers and players, and are just generally miserable, that a lot more "errors" occur. The "oops" I dropped the shoe at a true +8 kind of errors.

So we should pay protection money to the dealer like the mom and pop store pays to the neighborhood gang? Nice try but I'll pass. I'm perfectly capable of protecting myself. If you feel the need to drop the shoe go right ahead. I'm still going to get my share.

Thanks for reminding me why I'm a lousy tipper and proud of it!

Hmm..no, that's not it. It's taking care of people in the tipping profession that take care of you. Please understand there's an enormous difference between total george and stiff. People who are george will inevitably go broke because of their generosity. God bless em, but they won't be playing long like that. I applaud you for being proud of your habits but remind you that $5 an hour isn't a living wage. The idea of the post is not a gang-related threat as you inferred but rather something to make you feel better about separating yourself from your gambling money so that you wouldn't feel like you're wasting it. Do you feel the same about tipping in all professions, if I may ask?

Side note:
As somebody who has both been in the profession from a dealing standpoint to a shift manager standpoint and been on the "professional" playing side of things for the last 15 years, I feel knowledgable enough about today's games to see it from both sides of the equation. The house views you as undesirable if you are an advantage player. The dealers view you as undesireable if you are a stiff. I believe it is a good idea to stay under the radar by blending in and making friends as opposed to enemies. To each their own, though.

Quote: iambabyd

Hmm..no, that's not it. It's taking care of people in the tipping profession that take care of you. Please understand there's an enormous difference between total george and stiff. People who are george will inevitably go broke because of their generosity. God bless em, but they won't be playing long like that. I applaud you for being proud of your habits but remind you that $5 an hour isn't a living wage. The idea of the post is not a gang-related threat as you inferred but rather something to make you feel better about separating yourself from your gambling money so that you wouldn't feel like you're wasting it. Do you feel the same about tipping in all professions, if I may ask?

Side note:
As somebody who has both been in the profession from a dealing standpoint to a shift manager standpoint and been on the "professional" playing side of things for the last 15 years, I feel knowledgable enough about today's games to see it from both sides of the equation. The house views you as undesirable if you are an advantage player. The dealers view you as undesireable if you are a stiff. I believe it is a good idea to stay under the radar by blending in and making friends as opposed to enemies. To each their own, though.

I didn't say how I feel about tipping. I was merely making the point that I will not be intimidated, threatened or blackmailed by the dealer. I tip the customary amount in all professions and even tip dealers after losing if I feel they deserve it. They don't make me win and they don't make me lose. When I do tip, it's always upon coloring up so what's the point of dropping the shoe or displaying other hostile treatment? You're the one who mentioned "money in protection" hence my gang reference.

I wish I could believe that tipping could keep a card counter under the radar but I don't. If a skills check identifies a counter and the casino decides to take action, no amount of tipping is going to change that. The fact is that since most counters are tolerated, they'll never know if tipping actually works in that regard.

My understanding is that most casinos are tip-pooling for everyone except the poker room dealers.
Darn few joints are TFT (Table For Table) places anymore. Now I'm not one to start needless to-and-fro arguments about which is better or why. The point is that few TFT places exist and that most everyone is Tip Sharing which dilutes tips and makes everyone think that he and he alone is pulling all the others who are nothing but freeloading dead weight.

Irrespective of the truth or falsity in such TFT assumptions, there are simply too few of them. Oh, sure... if you happen to have one nearby, so be it. Go for it. Irrespective of the effect on BJ dealers, the TFT status probably won't last long.

Flea- I definitely agree with you. When there isn't a quantifiable measuring stick, as in pool joints, everyone feels like they're pulling the dead weight. And, TFT doesn't generally last too long because it really brings out the hustling-type dealers and a lot of negativity that goes along with it. With that said, the casinos in the Phoenix area are all TFT and are tribal owned. The reason I put that in there is because a large amount of the dealers are tribal and enjoy the TFT and would throw a fit if it were to be changed. Blackjack has been here 7 years now and as those who work here would say, the (tribal) dealers run the joint.

Well, I hope TFT doesn't make it too bad an atmosphere, usually it provides incentive to do a good job but not ream the players.
Anyway, if its been TFT for seven years its likely to stay that way, so I guess Arizona is an enclave that is immune from the more standard management decisions of Tip Pooling.

Now as to whether it is "better" to count cards in a TFT joint, I guess its certainly not going to be worse. A guy who is getting X tips and knows that "X means X" is going to react differently than a guy who gets X in tip money and knows that by the time the sharing is all done with he will be lucky to get seventy percent of X will probably think differently.

The trouble is that the primary motivation will come from how the dealer thinks the floor will react to his NOT alerting the casino to the activities of a card counter. That is probably going to be the primary motivator.

Things are a lot different out here. The dealers aren't responsible for anything like that and to be brutally honest, most of them wouldn't be able to get a job in a lot of other places because they make too many mistakes. It is really an advantage player's dream situation - weak dealers, no standard penetration (I'm sure you can find some dealers only cutting a deck), inept floors, enough action to blend in. All dealers are allowed to move through high limit games so the $5 mistakes happen to $500 bets as well. Limits only go up to $1000 and all games are six deck, but about half are still dealt out of a shoe and every game has full pay blackjacks. Might be worth a look to some who find themselves in the valley..

Quote: benbakdoff

I didn't say how I feel about tipping. I was merely making the point that I will not be intimidated, threatened or blackmailed by the dealer. I tip the customary amount in all professions and even tip dealers after losing if I feel they deserve it. They don't make me win and they don't make me lose. When I do tip, it's always upon coloring up so what's the point of dropping the shoe or displaying other hostile treatment? You're the one who mentioned "money in protection" hence my gang reference.

I wish I could believe that tipping could keep a card counter under the radar but I don't. If a skills check identifies a counter and the casino decides to take action, no amount of tipping is going to change that. The fact is that since most counters are tolerated, they'll never know if tipping actually works in that regard.

Sorry, you mentioned you were a lousy tipper and proud of it. Anyways, no, in a standard game a dealer can't make or help you win or lose. I personally would never do anything like dropping a shoe because that's just not who I am. The fact is, dealers feel like they should be tipped if you win, or if you at least have a good time and are entertained. In a pool joint, you're right, it doesn't matter who or when you tip. In a TFT joint, it absolutely matters. The dealers who gave you 100% attention and dealt a smooth, effective, accurate game and who deserve recognition would get zero where the dolt who doesn't know your name or the fact you hate smoke and people watching over your shoulder get the booty.

As far as tipping getting you a pass - you're right, once you're found it wouldn't matter - but it would certainly delay the process of you being found in the first place. I'm not sure where you reside and/or play, but I'm telling you from my 10 years in this specific area and 5 at my current casino, that you have to be either ridiculously blatant or a total stiff to get caught here.