IWannaBeAP
IWannaBeAP
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August 22nd, 2022 at 7:28:30 PM permalink
What happens if I get backed off while on a players card... in an casino that's not known to use any national databases, but part of a larger group?

For example, a Caesar or Penn property in some mid sized city. What would happen to my ability to play blackjack rated in other Caesar and Penn casinos in the country? Would I stop getting comps altogether from slots/video poker? (Such as free food/free hotel nights)

And finally, what exactly is this "database" people keep talking about. Something specific, or just generic paranoia?
ChumpChange
ChumpChange 
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August 22nd, 2022 at 7:48:25 PM permalink
I suppose they would send you a letter listing all the casinos you are prohibited from entering that lists the corporation name. It could be wide ranging and far flung with all the takeovers that have gone on leading to monopolies everywhere. If you have $50 on your player's card and they ban you, I don't think you get that $50 back. Buying something with points could set off the alarms or you'll find your card has no points whatsoever. Casinos may tighten up entry standards and start checking ID's or Player's Cards when you walk in the door or get to a table. If you're just playing machines, a JP may be refused, but you'll likely be able to cash out at the ATM/Voucher machines for non-JP amounts, just don't use your card..
IWannaBeAP
IWannaBeAP
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August 22nd, 2022 at 7:50:49 PM permalink
Umm... I'm talking about a blackjack backoff, not a tresspass. The protocol phrase "You're welcome to play any other game in the casino, but no more blackjack"
ChumpChange
ChumpChange 
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August 22nd, 2022 at 8:04:09 PM permalink
It's kind of funny because there was a documentary on TV somewhere where a guy went from casino to casino across the country and he was raking in a few thousand dollars at each but he was getting doxxed among the casinos. I don't remember if they kicked him out when he arrived at certain casinos, kicked him out after they watched him play for an hour, or missed the opportunity altogether but sent all the nearby casinos photos of him with dangerous words like "bets up to $500, the table limit."
AitchTheLetter
AitchTheLetter
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August 23rd, 2022 at 4:38:24 AM permalink
I can't speak to the comps side since that isn't an area of expertise for me.

As far as databases, a lot of casinos send fliers via email as well as send updates to OSN (Oregon Surveillance Network). Getting put on OSN doesn't stop you from going to other casinos and playing. It just makes it more likely for you to get countermeasured/backed off depending on the casino's policy for BJ AP.
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BillHasRetired
BillHasRetired
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August 23rd, 2022 at 4:54:35 PM permalink
Since I am not an AP and don't play blackjack and thus count cards, I was wondering the terminology difference between the following actions:

PitBoss: "You're done here for today."

PitBoss: "You can play anything here except blackjack."

PitBoss: "You're no longer welcome in this casino."

PitBoss: "You're no longer welcome in any Caesar's Corporation Casino." (example only)

As for not being able to play blackjack, does that apply to blackjack variants, like 21+3 or Spanish 21? In 36 years of playing, I've never heard a pitboss say anything like this to me, or anyone else at my table, though I did see one player ejected for destroying a die.

A thank you in advance to anyone who answers my question. My understanding of casino gaming has some glaring inconsistencies and gaping holes.
ViennaPizza
ViennaPizza
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August 23rd, 2022 at 10:40:41 PM permalink
I lol at this player card & database thing. Specifically, why should the casino believe that the other casino which added the player to OSN is correct? What if they simply flagged an idiot on a win streak as a card counter? Why should they believe in the database?
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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August 24th, 2022 at 12:58:03 AM permalink
A back off is different from a tresspass.

Be specific.

I've been backed off from craps at several casinos.
AitchTheLetter
AitchTheLetter
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August 24th, 2022 at 2:10:14 AM permalink
Quote: VladPutin

I lol at this player card & database thing. Specifically, why should the casino believe that the other casino which added the player to OSN is correct? What if they simply flagged an idiot on a win streak as a card counter? Why should they believe in the database?
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You are correct. Getting databased/fliered isn't the end of the world as an AP since the decision to send someone's information in is based on a determination from a human and humans are fallible.
The reliability of the information on OSN is taken on faith that the reporting party did their due diligence. There are no monetary or recognition incentives to reporting to OSN since the reports only specify state (at least they did when I was shown) not the exact property they were detected at.
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AitchTheLetter
AitchTheLetter
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August 24th, 2022 at 2:19:08 AM permalink
Quote: BillHasRetired

Since I am not an AP and don't play blackjack and thus count cards, I was wondering the terminology difference between the following actions:

PitBoss: "You're done here for today."

PitBoss: "You can play anything here except blackjack."

PitBoss: "You're no longer welcome in this casino."

PitBoss: "You're no longer welcome in any Caesar's Corporation Casino." (example only)

As for not being able to play blackjack, does that apply to blackjack variants, like 21+3 or Spanish 21? In 36 years of playing, I've never heard a pitboss say anything like this to me, or anyone else at my table, though I did see one player ejected for destroying a die.

A thank you in advance to anyone who answers my question. My understanding of casino gaming has some glaring inconsistencies and gaping holes.
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The first two examples are examples of a backoff. The casino doesn't want to deal with the suspected AP for the rest of the day and lets them know that they are "onto them". And yes the second example typically applies to Blackjack variants. I have even heard of properties barring suspected counters from Bacc put of a misguided expectation of it being susceptible to counting (some side bets might be but the EV isn't there).

Trespasses are dangerous territory for dealing with suspected AP because as I pointed out to VladPutin, the determination of if they are an AP is done by a human and they could accidentally determine a lucky streak for a ploppy meant they were counting.

There are also laws in some jurisdictions (Atlantic City, i think specifically, has to allow suspected counters to play) that prevent trespassing and even just backing off suspected AP.

Some casinos also don't back off suspected counters. They just tank the value of the game for the counter by forcing flat bets and/or cutting the shoe short. I, personally, have seen a casino cut a 6 deck shoe so that the suspected AP was getting 2 hands per shuffle.
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