Advantage Slot Play

Quote: Mission146

Advantage Play is simply making a bet when it has a positive mathematical expectation. That's all that it is. Since you want to teach us so much about terminologies, you should learn at least that one if you're going to be talking about it.

The choice to play at certain times is what makes it an Advantage Play. You are playing in a situation where your expected return on a spin (or set of spins) is greater than 100% of the amount that you are betting.

The choice to play does not impact anything on the reels, the, "Side Game," or the, "Minigame." I agree with that.*** That doesn't change the fact that knowing when to play at an expected return of more than 100% is an advantage play. That's really the only criteria that something needs to satisfy to be an advantage play.

***In some cases, a player can make choices that would improve the return of the game, usually having to do with bet amount...but that's getting into the weeds.

Quote: USpapergames

Why is it you would rather make up your own terms than to stick to the industry standard terms??? We define the game to be over once the game has established its outcomes!!! The reason why it's a side game is because in order for the side game to even begin, the player must 1st play the slot game & win the opportunity to play the side game. Does this make sense? The main game is over (or paused) & the main game is paying out a credit to play the side game as part of it's payout!!! At some point in just going to give up all together on teaching you anything if you refuse to listen 👂

Quote: Mental

I loved this reference and the truly irrefutable logic.
This is where you are wrong. The Ocean Magic bubbles are the main game. Without the base reel game, which is the side game, Ocean Magic would violate minimum return rules. How can the bubble portion of the game that provides the majority of the return-to-player not be the main game? The bubbles are probably is listed as 'Bubble Main Game' on the PAR sheet. Below that is a section called 'Unimportant Side Base Reel Game'.

Quote: USpapergames

...Did you know that the jackpots or bonuses on these machines are not considered part of the slot game???

Legally any mini-game is a separate entity from the main game & you must file for its own gaming application approval & it's own mathematical analysis from a lab!

Quote: USpapergames

So apparently some of us still can't quite grasp what the slot game means. Is this the game your talking about? Looks like a side game bonus to me but maybe it's a minigame? Please explain in detail how the jackpot are won and I can definitely make a determination ;)

https://youtu.be/2a9W6kv094s

Quote: USpapergames

Thank you for understanding my question! You even call the "external elements" so why is it so hard to see them as a side game which is not part of the main game is they are external form the game. It's funny because you agree with me & don't even realize it 😆

Quote: Mission146

You seem to believe that, because a slot can sometimes be AP'ed, that the casino loses money because of it. It doesn't. The house edge of the machine is based on long-term results, so casinos simply want machines that make money. You make money by drawing players to the game.

The only uphill battle that such games might have compared to others is that APs are going to play only when they think the game is in a positive state, then they are going to cash out when it isn't. That's obviously not something that you are going to see on machines that are incapable of entering a positive state in the first place. Casual players, again obviously, are more likely to just play until they hit something big or lose whatever they put in.

Anyway, I'll leave that for DRich to answer as I'm out of my element now. I don't know if there is a metric similar to, "Hold percentage," which is a table game concept that casinos look at...or if they're only concerned with how much actual cash a slot is making at the end of the day. I would suspect that if there is a metric similar to, "Hold percentage," that it tends to be a bit lower on slot games that can be AP'ed.



I think the first sentence is true to some extent for a few reasons, but it could be as simple as a player likes the features of the game, on an individual player basis.

Why I think that the first sentence is partially true is because the things that make the AP possible are features that can create the perception of value. Another reason is that I think some players will have a tendency not to want to leave accumulated value (in whatever form) behind, which may cause some players to play longer than they otherwise might or to insert more money. In some of these cases, the perception is wrong as the game is not yet in a positive state. You'll see this pretty often when it comes to a player, "Chasing progressives," that have not yet actually gone +EV.

As far as slot machines potentially fooling people in that way, yes, I do think such machines could be successful. More than that, I believe that such machines actually exist right now. Three Kings is an example of this that I have already mentioned. The Free Games accumulator progressive meters create the perception of value, but the game never goes positive---even if all three meters are topped out. There are also a number of progressive games that create the perception of value, and while they could theoretically go +EV, it's quite rare. Many games that have a single progressive are this way simply because of the huge odds against actually hitting the progressive. In some cases, it is that way because the progressive is unlikely to, "Miss enough cycles," for the progressive contributions to turn the game positive.

At the end of the day, you shouldn't really care whether or not AP's want to play your game. You should be concerned only with whether or not the game is enough fun for casual players to want to play it. I'd consider any negative expectation play you might get from APs trying to figure out whether or not it is beatable as, "Gravy." If the APs figure out that it can not be beaten, that is not a death sentence for your game. There are plenty of slot games that cannot be beaten. I think having some variable element that creates the perception of value for casual gamblers is, everything else being equal, going to be of benefit to you.

Quote: USpapergames

I'd appreciate it if you would just reread your definition of advantage play because it actually falls within my definition even if it's not word for word ;) It's impossible to make a bet in a profitable situation if no player choice can have an effect on the outcome! I think my definition is far more accurate because it comes from the brightest minds in the gaming industry who have published books about game design.

Quote: rxwine

And don’t assume too much. Do people stop playing Cave Man keno because of the game play or the racket it makes crunching rocks? Unless you test to eliminate that variable you don’t know.

Quote: Mission146

Not to mention Konami, since he thinks you have to design either board games or video games to have any real credibility.

Quote: Mission146

You seem to believe that, because a slot can sometimes be AP'ed, that the casino loses money because of it. It doesn't. The house edge of the machine is based on long-term results, so casinos simply want machines that make money. You make money by drawing players to the game.

The only uphill battle that such games might have compared to others is that APs are going to play only when they think the game is in a positive state, then they are going to cash out when it isn't. That's obviously not something that you are going to see on machines that are incapable of entering a positive state in the first place. Casual players, again obviously, are more likely to just play until they hit something big or lose whatever they put in.

Anyway, I'll leave that for DRich to answer as I'm out of my element now. I don't know if there is a metric similar to, "Hold percentage," which is a table game concept that casinos look at...or if they're only concerned with how much actual cash a slot is making at the end of the day. I would suspect that if there is a metric similar to, "Hold percentage," that it tends to be a bit lower on slot games that can be AP'ed.



I think the first sentence is true to some extent for a few reasons, but it could be as simple as a player likes the features of the game, on an individual player basis.

Why I think that the first sentence is partially true is because the things that make the AP possible are features that can create the perception of value. Another reason is that I think some players will have a tendency not to want to leave accumulated value (in whatever form) behind, which may cause some players to play longer than they otherwise might or to insert more money. In some of these cases, the perception is wrong as the game is not yet in a positive state. You'll see this pretty often when it comes to a player, "Chasing progressives," that have not yet actually gone +EV.

As far as slot machines potentially fooling people in that way, yes, I do think such machines could be successful. More than that, I believe that such machines actually exist right now. Three Kings is an example of this that I have already mentioned. The Free Games accumulator progressive meters create the perception of value, but the game never goes positive---even if all three meters are topped out. There are also a number of progressive games that create the perception of value, and while they could theoretically go +EV, it's quite rare. Many games that have a single progressive are this way simply because of the huge odds against actually hitting the progressive. In some cases, it is that way because the progressive is unlikely to, "Miss enough cycles," for the progressive contributions to turn the game positive.

At the end of the day, you shouldn't really care whether or not AP's want to play your game. You should be concerned only with whether or not the game is enough fun for casual players to want to play it. I'd consider any negative expectation play you might get from APs trying to figure out whether or not it is beatable as, "Gravy." If the APs figure out that it can not be beaten, that is not a death sentence for your game. There are plenty of slot games that cannot be beaten. I think having some variable element that creates the perception of value for casual gamblers is, everything else being equal, going to be of benefit to you.

Quote: DRich

The term you may be looking for is the theorhetical win. Of ocurse the most important thing to the slot director is the actual win but when evaluating a specific machine the most important thing is how far under theorhetical is the actual results. If a machhine is consistently under performing by a large margin it will probably be removed.

Quote: USpapergames

The best board game designers are multi-millionaires, are any casino game designers multi-millionaires?

Quote: rxwine

If they threw me out for vulturing a few games they would lose the play where I’m throwing money away.

I suspect I’m not the only player who may use some AP some of the time.

Quote: sabre

No, like everything else you spew this makes no sense.

Quote: Mission146

Who said they prefer them? The casino prefers slots that they think will make money. That's like saying that a casino, "Prefers," video poker just because it happens to have some video poker games.

Your next sentence stumbles on something. You may not be aware of this, but psychological studies actually have shown that it is the, "Near Miss," that lights up the player's brain the most. The anticipation. The expectation. Even if they hit a crappy set of Free Games, something in the brain says, "Oh, well the next set should be pretty good then since that set didn't perform as well as it, 'should.' Of course, I know and you should know that one set of Free Games has no bearing on future sets, in terms of performance and all else being equal.

If the players are bored by the games and choose not to play, then the number of games per hour is zero. There was once a time that the majority of slot machine games on a casino's floor were single-line games with no special features. If you hit three of this symbol, then you win this much. Sometimes they would pay for hitting one Cherry or two Cherries if they were feeling especially creative.

While single-line slot machine games still exist in most casinos, there is no question that they are in the minority. I believe you're definitely intelligent enough to know why that is, but I'll tell you anyway: Because most people think they are boring.

So, the answer is simple: If the number of games per hour was the most important factor and not, "Taking up a lot of time," then all of the games on the casino floor would not have features that take up a lot of time.

However, that's not the most important factor. The most important factor is making money. Machines with features make money. Machines without any feature are generally ignored, or only played by a small segment of players.

Simply: If the players were only playing the single-line slot games with no features, then soon those would be back to being the majority of slot games in the casino again. If you can come up with a popular slot title with a crazy high SPH that makes more money than the other machines, and get your device on the casino floor, then there is no question you will have great success in the slot machine development business.



Yeah, you're on a gambling forum. This is not a video game or board game message board. If you want to go to China and speak nothing but English, then don't expect every single person you encounter to understand you.



People that come to this forum tend to already have an interest in gambling. Even if they didn't...they would usually describe something, we would say, "Oh, you mean (gambling terminology used for that thing)," and something would click in their brains and they would learn the word that gambling folks use to describe that thing and start using it.



Have you considered the possibility that the casinos might not WANT the average player to know that slot machines are intentionally designed to be habit-forming? That they are specifically designed to stimulate the brain a certain way causing the release of chemicals that make the player want to play more?



Watching it. I'll do another post if this interests me at all. I don't care if the graphics on a slot machine look like a 1970 box TV, I care whether or not it is mathematically beatable.

Quote: DRich

Yes, I agree with this statement and in the Gaming industry the outcome is not determined until the machine is ready for the next bet. Every single approved slot machine has a meter that counts the number of games played. It increments once when the game starts and doesn;t increment again until the next wager is placed and a new game is played. If you win 10 free spins that does not increment the meter 10 times. It is all one game.

Quote: Mission146

SMB1 or SMB3?

In SMB1, the 1-2 warp is not a special stage at all, it just requires accessing a hidden area in World 1-2. From there, you can go to Worlds 2, 3 or 4.

As far as the 4-2 warp zone is concerned, it's true that you either had to take the vine to a different area to get to it, or to do the pipe glitch (which still requires you hit the block that releases the vine)...but one thing that you will notice in the area with the mushroom trees is that, ACCORDING TO THE GAME, you are still in World 4-2. Therefore, that is just an area in World 4-2 that is hidden, but still part of the Stage called 4-2. It is not a separate stage.

So, your argument there is wrong.

In SMB3, you do go to a different stage, but I fail to see how that is a side game. First of all, the, "Warp Zone," is designated as, "World 9," on the bottom of the screen, so one must conclude it is part of the main game. Secondly, the two warp whistles I would use (there may be more, but you only need two to get to World 8) are, "Behind the curtain," in World 1-3, accessed by doing the wait and drop down trick...and also in the hidden portion of the World 1 castle stage if you fly above everything rather than advancing to that stage's boss.

In other words, while hidden, both warp whistles are accessible via main stages in the game, so I would think, be considered a part of the main game.

Quote: Mission146

Ask you a question: Suppose you hit three symbols that result in your getting Free Games---how much did you win? You don't know because the Free Games haven't been played yet, so how could you know? Therefore, the game is over when the Free Games have concluded.

In the majority of cases, I wouldn't say you, "Play Free Games,"---strictly speaking, you just watch them as they typically do not require additional input from the player---though there are exceptions to that. Of course, it's gotten to the point now where some machines have different bonus games that themselves are triggered within the free games...but it's all a part of the same final result, which is the result of your bet.

Have you ever played an arcade machine? Galaga is a game with bonus stages. One quarter, one play...it's all part of the same play. One bet, one play. What you are saying is not even a consistent truth in the gaming industry that you supposedly work for and have great expertise in.

As an aside, not only is this a pointless semantic argument, it's actually the MOST pointless semantic argument I've ever had. That's out of well over one-hundred semantic arguments. Thank you for that.

Finally, I've already accepted that you likely have nothing to teach me...at least not about this subject. But, that's fine. I'll share my thoughts with you anyway if your posts manage not to annoy me too much. Besides, I've learned a few things from DRich in this thread, so fortunately for both of us, DRich's contributions to this thread (and others) have made my participation in it worth it to me.

Quote: OnceDear

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

For a typical slot, You press 'spin' or whatever it's called on your slots game : Some of your balance is deducted as the wager (X): The game commences : Maybe a feature is launched. At the completion of the spin AND any triggered feature, you get some return (Y), which may be zero or may be a big payout. The RTP that you get is the average value of Y/X expressed as a percentage. Whether the prize is from the initial landing of the reels or whether it's the outcome of the feature is irrelevant.

This interpretation seems to be completely at odds with my understanding of what USPaperGames describes. He seems to be saying that the game ends when the reels initially land and that quoted RTP is determined only by the prize up to the end of this core game? He then seems to imply that the feature or bonus round is a free 'side-game' which presumably has an RTP of infinity ( it was free, after all ),

Am I interpreting USPG correctly?
If so, is his interpretation of RTP completely wrong?

Quote: Mission146

Just read the screen. The screen on the machine tells you how those jackpots are won. You're going to have a very difficult time designing slot machines if you can't even look at an existing slot machine and understand its rules.

Quote: Mission146

By, "External elements," I was referring to players club points, promotions, comps, etc...That's why I said, "Having nothing to do with the game itself."

Quote: USpapergames

I am trying to figure out how you came to that conclusion that I think the side game is the only thing that counts towards E.V. (expected value).

Quote: Mission146

The player's choice doesn't need to be able to have an effect on the outcome. In some cases, the choice that matters is simply whether or not to play at that time.

Suppose you walk up to a Golden Egypt machine:

No Coins: Not an advantage play. You should not play.

Two Coins Above the First Four Reels: The first four reels are fully wild. There is literally no way that the next two spins will fail to be profitable. You should definitely take the next two spins in this situation. This is an advantage play.

Of course, it's usually not something that obvious. There are several Golden Egypt configurations that would have the player at a mathematical advantage.

Quote: rxwine

Until the casinos put the same games in with slightly different options next to each other with real players playing them, I would bet game analysis is not as good as it could be on what players prefer to spend the most on.

And I don’t mean just pay percentages either. The best testing method is to eliminate most variables in a real life usage. Not a test area.

The best example of this in electronic games in real life is video keno. There’s at least half a dozen versions. But there aren’t too many variables though ideally there should just a few. Over the long term which version is the best money maker?

And don’t assume too much. Do people stop playing Cave Man keno because of the game play or the racket it makes crunching rocks? Unless you test to eliminate that variable you don’t know.

Quote: Viper21

This guy is extremely condescending. If he is not a troll he needs to check his attitude at the door. Nice people are trying to help. Arguing semantics is not gonna help answer his question. If you are making a virtual slot don't make it a persistent state machine and you won't need to worry about it being APable. To answer your question if a slot machine(using your definition of a slot) can be APed the answer is NO. Bam done. End thread.

Quote: DRich

Many.

Google Ernie Moody who was making close to $30 million a year.

Quote: OnceDear

No. I got the impression that you were saying that only the main game contributed to declared and state mandated RTP and by extension EV. You certainly seemed to state that 'side games' and main game are separate entities, where I say that the sidegame is just an occasional subset of the main game.

Quote: rsactuary

Reading through this, I'd like to say two things:

1) I'd like that hour back.
2) If your on-line persona is like your real life persona, no wonder you didn't get the job with IGT.

Quote: Mission146

Not to mention Konami, since he thinks you have to design either board games or video games to have any real credibility.



One was a Sex and the City variant. It was beatable just by playing it, betting minimum and letting the timer run all the way down to one second between spins. The only conditions that needed satisfied were you needed the other three seats (if betting minimum) all occupied with the players playing somewhat fast, or you needed one or more other players betting more than the minimum.

I suspect that you would go to bonus games based on a hidden accumulator that would just take everyone to bonus games when a certain total amount in bets had been made, but I can't be sure. There might have been a more random element to it.

I guess it might have been better to try to, "Time it," in terms of when to actually take spins, but just constantly betting minimum as little as possible seemed to work just fine. Again, I wasn't completely sure that it was accumulator based because I could only see one of the other seats (the other two were on the opposite side of the big screen). The time between bonuses also didn't seem extremely consistent...sometimes you'd have another bonus game within two minutes of the one that just ended, so I tend to think it was at least partially random.

Another big thing was that the game at least didn't seem to take into account how much you were betting when it came to how you did in the bonus games, but my sample size isn't big enough to be 100% sure of that. The different little games would have different credit awards based on how you placed, and I know I seemed to take first place a reasonable amount of the time despite the fact that I was making the least in total bets...by far.

I wish I could be certain with some of this stuff, but I worked full-time at a hotel at the time so didn't have the opportunity to play it as much as I would have liked. I think the game didn't even last two months before it was gone. It did take up a lot of real estate and not very many people seemed interested in it, which also limited my number of opportunities.

Quote: USpapergames

2) Who said I didn't get the job??? It's standard policy for companies and at least email you letting you know that they aren't moving forward with you as a candidate for hire. I haven't gotten anything yet from IGT. That being said, your probably right that I didn't get the job.

Quote: rdw4potus

There's a bit of a weakness in the process at the interview phase. If you won't be considered for an interview, your file is closed & you usually get a form letter. If you will be offered the job, you get an offer letter & negotiations start. But if you interview and they decide after that to hire someone else, it's up to the hiring manager to follow up with the other interviewees. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't. Often, there's a delay even if those notices are given. There is a need to ensure that the selected candidate can be hired. If that doesn't work out, other candidates may be elevated or the position may be reposted. In the case of the IGT job, if they were already working with headhunters, they probably wouldn't benefit from reposting.

Quote: DRich

Does anyone else think if these same conversations were being held in person that somebody would get punched in the face?

Quote: DRich

Who is going to license it until you have an issued patent?

Quote: USpapergames

??? Have you seen my filed patent & the two non-provisional patents???

Quote: DRich

No, send me the link when they are issued.

Quote: DRich

Do you know Royal Slots was already trademarked? Fortunately it has been abandoned so you better lock it up now. You can do it all online.

Quote: USpapergames

Ok, I have a great idea. If you think I'm such an idiot that I would release a game that I am not confident in my ability to protect them your mistaken. If you truly believe this then by all means please steal my game creation & I can't take you to court for any monetary gain you get from Royal Slots. You will essentially have done all the work for me getting the game out there & made no money on it 🤟

🤐 wish I had read the BTW part

Quote: DRich

What would make you think that I have any interest in your game? I haven't even seen it.

Quote: USpapergames

Yes, I knew this and jumped on immediately. I've been trading marking the name since April!!!