Advantage Slot Play
Poll
 | 14 votes (53.84%) | ||
| | 12 votes (46.15%) |
26 members have voted
Quote: DRichQuote: USpapergamesQuote: DRichI have never published any games except slots. I used to write all of the classics when I was young. Pacman, Space Invaders, Asteroids, Centipede, Mostly written on my Apple ][.
That's still very impressive.
Thank you, but it wasn't really impressive as their were hundreds of people doing it at that time.
I thought that had to be difficult back then to copy a game exactly. Today is just one of those days I just learn too much information. 🤯
Quote: USpapergamesI understand the need for secrecy. I promise you I don't play slot machines, I am a professional poker play for almost a decade now & look down on A.P. slot play. But I am a game designer & this info is very valuable to me. So if encourage your support & I you could help me by sending me a cleavage message that would mean a lot, thank you ;)
I look down on your profession but please pm me and help me... ya I’ll pass thanks
Quote: PokerGrinderI look down on your profession but please pm me and help me... ya I’ll pass thanks
He doesn't want help, he wants a "cleavage message". Tits or gtfo.
Quote: USpapergamesYES!!!! You're getting it!!!!! Now video poker is a game which is AP plausible, but no slot game is AP plausible and never will be unless there is some kind of mistake.
P.S. The reason why video poker can be AP plausible but not a slot game is because there are choices involved that affect the game play! The choice weather to play affects the side or minigames but not the slot game because the slot reels odds always remain constraint (unless they are being affected by a side or minigame)! Meaning no choices can ever effect the payout of a slot game.
Some kind of mistake???? You are talking about something that you clearly have no idea about. First off you are never going to get anybody on this thread to tell you what games are beatable as that is not how the ap community works. If there was anybody that was willing to help that went out the window every time you insulted AP slot players. Just a heads up I make a lot more money playing slot machines than you do playing poker. I played poker for a living for many years and it is literally a waste of my time now to play poker for me. Gl but your approach to belittle the posters here has made it so you will get no info.
You can certainly design a slot game that is not AP'able in and of itself, there are many of them already out there my guess is that's the case with most of them.Quote: USpapergamesWow, thank you for your insight. It helps when you actually listen to the other person and address what they say in your comment ;) I've learned 2 things today!!! I had no idea many vultures became predators manipulating the target machine's player into leaving. You've convinced me, AP slot players are just like poler sharks :)
I also believe you 100% right that poorly designed side or minigames is the culprit to AP plausibility. And a $3.20 chase is just ridiculous :/
You say poorly designed. But is that really the case? Slot manufacturers like IGT have been around since the 70's and they have been designing variable state/banking/accumulators probably since the 80s (hundreds of different variations. They are well aware that there are Advantage players out there doing this. They seem pause for a while making such games, but not for long, Before you know it they are right back at it. Why is that? Because those so-called poorly designed slot machine are what actually seems to get the poppies in the seats and keeps them playing.
At one point, I thought they all but solved the problem when they came out with a series of machines(I'm drawing a blank on the actual names of the machines, there were quite a few different titles) the machines were linked and had a community bonus. There was a timer on the machine that would count down or or add based on the speed and bet levels you were playing that is what qualified you for your portion of the prize pool. If you allowed it to hi zero you wouldn't qualify. There were a few that veered off a bit from the main design that were actually beatable. The Ebay slot seemed to be one of those, however, I had no actual math or hard evidence to back this up. My theory that was working well was that there seemed to be a hidden banking feature that you could somewhat time based on the others playing and their bet levels. The machines didn't last long for whatever reason and I didn't really see any other pros playing them, just tinkering around a bit, so my guess is that they weren't popular, they were expensive and took up too much space.
Wasn't it at Mr AxelWolf who originally told you that you were "wasting your time" playing poker and you should get into other things like slots and VP? Way back when, I think The Plaza rings a bell.Quote: PokerGrinderSome kind of mistake???? You are talking about something that you clearly have no idea about. First off you are never going to get anybody on this thread to tell you what games are beatable as that is not how the ap community works. If there was anybody that was willing to help that went out the window every time you insulted AP slot players. Just a heads up I make a lot more money playing slot machines than you do playing poker. I played poker for a living for many years and it is literally a waste of my time now to play poker for me. Gl but your approach to belittle the posters here has made it so you will get no info.
Quote: AxelWolfWasn't it at Mr AxelWolf who originally told you that you were "wasting your time" playing poker and you should get into other things like slots and VP? Way back when, I think The Plaza rings a bell.
Yes five years ago and mr axelwolf couldn’t have been more correct.
Quote: PokerGrinderI look down on your profession but please pm me and help me... ya I’ll pass thanks
Sure, but what exactly do you need help with?
Quote: PokerGrinderSome kind of mistake???? You are talking about something that you clearly have no idea about. First off you are never going to get anybody on this thread to tell you what games are beatable as that is not how the ap community works. If there was anybody that was willing to help that went out the window every time you insulted AP slot players. Just a heads up I make a lot more money playing slot machines than you do playing poker. I played poker for a living for many years and it is literally a waste of my time now to play poker for me. Gl but your approach to belittle the posters here has made it so you will get no info.
Wow, were is this coming from? When did I insult AP players? Secondly, there have been many people that have been very helpful in acquiring this knowledge & I couldn't have done it without them. Thirdly, I'm shocked at how much money you make over poker players. Congrats, it's definitely not an easy feat to accomplish.
Quote: USpapergamesSure, but what exactly do you need help with?
I was repeating your words, you look down on ap slot players but want help.
Quote: USpapergamesWow, were is this coming from? When did I insult AP players? Secondly, there have been many people that have been very helpful in acquiring this knowledge & I couldn't have done it without them. Thirdly, I'm shocked at how much money you make over poker players. Congrats, it's definitely not an easy feat to accomplish.
I read the whole thread, you are extremely condescending to a lot of the responses. Ap slots is not something that you can go on a forum and ask for specific machines, nobody will give you anything except bubbles and coins that you’ve already been told.
Quote: AxelWolfYou can certainly design a slot game that is not AP'able in and of itself, there are many of them already out there my guess is that's the case with most of them.
You say poorly designed. But is that really the case? Slot manufacturers like IGT have been around since the 70's and they have been designing variable state/banking/accumulators probably since the 80s (hundreds of different variations. They are well aware that there are Advantage players out there doing this. They seem pause for a while making such games, but not for long, Before you know it they are right back at it. Why is that? Because those so-called poorly designed slot machine are what actually seems to get the poppies in the seats and keeps them playing.
At one point, I thought they all but solved the problem when they came out with a series of machines(I'm drawing a blank on the actual names of the machines, there were quite a few different titles) the machines were linked and had a community bonus. There was a timer on the machine that would count down or or add based on the speed and bet levels you were playing that is what qualified you for your portion of the prize pool. If you allowed it to hi zero you wouldn't qualify. There were a few that veered off a bit from the main design that were actually beatable. The Ebay slot seemed to be one of those, however, I had no actual math or hard evidence to back this up. My theory that was working well was that there seemed to be a hidden banking feature that you could somewhat time based on the others playing and their bet levels. The machines didn't last long for whatever reason and I didn't really see any other pros playing them, just tinkering around a bit, so my guess is that they weren't popular, they were expensive and took up too much space.
You seem to really understand slot advantage play & I greatly appreciate you being able to read the thread and apply the knowledge being writing whatever comment compels you ;) Now to comment on what you are saying, I find it fascinating that there could be an actual purposely designed AP slot just to get people to fill the seats. I never would have come to this conclusion & I'm not fully convinced, yet the idea does seem rather logical which is why I'm considering what you just told me as potentially true.
I always thought that a slots set was going to get filled regardless but apparently it's the idea that slots are AP plausible that gets people to want to play them in the 1st place. Let me ask you someone, & please think it over before giving me an answer. Do you think a slot machine that potentially could fool people into thinking that it was AP plausible would be successful? The problem is that's why I designed Royal Slots, to be mistaken as an AP plausible program but I think the real AP's will discover or solve the game design elements and realize that it's not possible to gain an edge. Does that mean my machine could become less in demand with less people playing it just because it's not AP plausible?
Quote: PokerGrinderI was repeating your words, you look down on ap slot players but want help.
No sir, I don't look down on AP slot players anymore. But I will say I had no idea it was more profitable than poker! Honestly, I don't look down on many people just because they would probably be looking down on me ;)
P.S. I only said that to convince others that I'm not trying to use their secrets for my own personal gain.
Quote: PokerGrinderI read the whole thread, you are extremely condescending to a lot of the responses. Ap slots is not something that you can go on a forum and ask for specific machines, nobody will give you anything except bubbles and coins that you’ve already been told.
Hold on, nobody was asking for specific machines, examples actually were good enough to convey the information I was looking for. The main issue with this thread was getting everyone to agree upon the already pre-established terms with the game design community.
Quote: USpapergames
I always thought that a slots set was going to get filled regardless but apparently it's the idea that slots are AP plausible that gets people to want to play them in the 1st place. Let me ask you someone, & please think it over before giving me an answer. Do you think a slot machine that potentially could fool people into thinking that it was AP plausible would be successful? The problem is that's why I designed Royal Slots, to be mistaken as an AP plausible program but I think the real AP's will discover or solve the game design elements and realize that it's not possible to gain an edge. Does that mean my machine could become less in demand with less people playing it just because it's not AP plausible?
Folks here tend to use the term variable-state slot, but the industry uses persistent-state to describe such slots. You are off base on why the industry likes persistent-state slots: https://ggbmagazine.com/article/global-games-2019-introduction/
Blackjack is a persistent-state game (less so, if dealt from a CSM). This was not an intentional design. I wish I could use a 1 to 20 bet spread on banking slot games.
What you call side games are very attractive to ploppies even if they have no persistent-state and are totally unexploitable by an AP. Free games, expanding reels, persistent wilds, etc. are a random windfall that is provided because it is very addictive to a ploppy. It is as if you were grinding in a 3/6 Omaha8 game where each hand takes five minutes to play, and then every 20 hands or so, you randomly get to switch to playing five hands of blitz 5/10 NL Holdem with the same table full of idiots. Now that would be 10 times more fun!
To me the side games in advantage play are the freeroll drawings and tournaments. I once played a freeroll VP tournament where the single lowest score also got a prize. You had to play all of your credits through (200 hands). I designed an optimal strategy for low score, and I expected others to try and compete for the low score. Nobody else tried. I managed to score exactly zero and I even had some spectators cheering for me to lose every hand when they figured out what I was up to. When I tried to collect, I found that the casino had ignored my score entirely. They assumed my zero score was an error and wrote someone with over 500 credits down as the low score. They did pay me in the end after they dug out my score sheet with a zero on it.
Quote: USpapergamesYes this is a side game feature which transforms the outcomes of the slot game. It's obvious these are 2 separate games is it not? The Wild symbol was never on the slot reel to begin with!!!
If getting the fire flower to transform the way you can kill enemies in Super Mario Brothers is a separate game, then I guess you're right.
Another thing when it comes to Ocean Magic---it would not meet jurisdictional minimum returns if the bubble component was not considered part of the game. Since you are also arguing that Free Games are not part of the game, then on a, "Just the reels," basis, Ocean Magic would likely return less than 40%.
Quote: USpapergamesYes that's correct, but we need to also define game. If you win free spins are they considered new games are part of the same game which won you those spins?
Same game. Two logical reasons to support my assertion:
1.) You make ONE bet. You make a bet and then you either win or lose. Almost always, getting Free Games does not require any additional bets to be made (the only exceptions I can think of are highly specific Video Keno games and one specific Video Poker game) therefore, the game is concluded only when another bet needs to be made in order to start a new game.
2.) W2G for jackpot purposes. If you hit Free Games and your winnings total $1,200, or more, you will be issued a W2G even if the threshold is crossed due to accumulated winnings rather than the win on one spin. Therefore, it is clearly treated as all being one game, or, 'Play,' if you will, in that regard.
Quote: USpapergamesGolden Egypt has wilds that last on screen for multiple games. These wilds would be considered a side game since the game obviously has completed payouts followed by games with different symbols.
I'm going to tell you why this is nonsense: With Golden Egypt, you accumulate the coins to turn the reels wild for the designated number of spins. Absent that, the coins which are on the reels do nothing. They do not operate on a scatter basis, they are not wild and they do not result in a payline even if you were to hit three of them in a row. If not for the ability to accumulate them, their presence would only hurt you by blocking potential winning lines.
With that in mind, I ask this: How could the coins possibly be considered a side game when the mechanism is built into the main reels and otherwise does nothing?
Quote: USpapergamesYou could very well be correct, I'm not saying I know much about Golden Egypt. But surely your edge is coming from some feature that is outside of the slot game?
None of these machines have slot games which pay-off the jackpots, so if your edge has anything to do with the jackpots then it won't be a standard slot payout.
Yes, they do. For one example, on any number of Quick Hits games, the jackpots are won by hitting certain numbers of the Scatter "Quick Hit," symbols which are on the reels and are part of the main game. While they are not quite as popular as they used to be, there are still any number of other machines that have jackpots that are based on hitting particular amounts of scatter symbols.
Quote: USpapergames
Btw it absolutely matters because I need to know if it's possible to gain an edge in just the slot games being played today. The only way it could be possible is if you find a game that has no side or minigames and is AP plausible because any game that has a side or minigame will have part of the players return based on it.
Okay...so what you are wanting is a slot machine that has no Free Games, no progressives, no accumulator functions and is also not variable state. It sounds like you might also want it not to have any wild symbols.
Based on those criteria, no, there would not be very many slot games that are AP plausible absent some external element having nothing to do with the game itself. None that I am aware of, anyway.
In other words, single-line flattop games do not tend to pay out more than 100%, nor do multi-line flat top games. I'm shocked if you didn't already know that. I HOPE you would have assumed that all of us already did know that.
And, I'm also not saying it's impossible. You could have the results * probabilities = Expected Return for each result all add up to a number greater than 1...but I certainly couldn't name one.
Using the most narrow definition of, "Slot advantage play," possible---which you're also defining in a way that nobody else would---you have conclusively proven that it is extremely unlikely. I've got a few more pages to skim, so there might be another response within the next few minutes, but after that, I think I've had my fun with this thread.
Good luck in your efforts to revolutionize the slot industry and change all of the terminologies that are used to describe things. I wish you tremendous success.
Quote: USpapergamesYES!!!! You're getting it!!!!! Now video poker is a game which is AP plausible, but no slot game is AP plausible and never will be unless there is some kind of mistake.
P.S. The reason why video poker can be AP plausible but not a slot game is because there are choices involved that affect the game play! The choice weather to play affects the side or minigames but not the slot game because the slot reels odds always remain constraint (unless they are being affected by a side or minigame)! Meaning no choices can ever effect the payout of a slot game.
Advantage Play is simply making a bet when it has a positive mathematical expectation. That's all that it is. Since you want to teach us so much about terminologies, you should learn at least that one if you're going to be talking about it.
The choice to play at certain times is what makes it an Advantage Play. You are playing in a situation where your expected return on a spin (or set of spins) is greater than 100% of the amount that you are betting.
The choice to play does not impact anything on the reels, the, "Side Game," or the, "Minigame." I agree with that.*** That doesn't change the fact that knowing when to play at an expected return of more than 100% is an advantage play. That's really the only criteria that something needs to satisfy to be an advantage play.
***In some cases, a player can make choices that would improve the return of the game, usually having to do with bet amount...but that's getting into the weeds.
I loved this reference and the truly irrefutable logic.Quote: Mission146If getting the fire flower to transform the way you can kill enemies in Super Mario Brothers is a separate game, then I guess you're right.
This is where you are wrong. The Ocean Magic bubbles are the main game. Without the base reel game, which is the side game, Ocean Magic would violate minimum return rules. How can the bubble portion of the game that provides the majority of the return-to-player not be the main game? The bubbles are probably is listed as 'Bubble Main Game' on the PAR sheet. Below that is a section called 'Unimportant Side Base Reel Game'.Quote: Mission146
Another thing when it comes to Ocean Magic---it would not meet jurisdictional minimum returns if the bubble component was not considered part of the game. Since you are also arguing that Free Games are not part of the game, then on a, "Just the reels," basis, Ocean Magic would likely return less than 40%.
Quote: rdw4potusLOL. Now I'm trying to even remember any. That turkey bowling thing had a lot of placements 15 years ago. And horseracing can do OK. What's the lightning link horseracing skin? Best bet?
Are there still any of those, "Breeder's Cup," or whatever the hell that Horse Racing one with the progressives was called? I think the last time I saw one was probably five years ago.
Quote: Mental
This is where you are wrong. The Ocean Magic bubbles are the main game. Without the base reel game, which is the side game, Ocean Magic would violate minimum return rules. How can the bubble portion of the game that provides the majority of the return-to-player not be the main game? The bubbles are probably is listed as 'Bubble Main Game' on the PAR sheet. Below that is a section called 'Unimportant Side Base Reel Game'.
Thanks for the great laugh!
Quote: RogerKintJust wanted to let everyone know I'm the world's leading expert on outer space. Now, what is this Moon thing everyone's been talking about?
A side game. It's not even really part of the Universe.
Quote: AxelWolfYou can certainly design a slot game that is not AP'able in and of itself, there are many of them already out there my guess is that's the case with most of them.
You say poorly designed. But is that really the case? Slot manufacturers like IGT have been around since the 70's and they have been designing variable state/banking/accumulators probably since the 80s (hundreds of different variations. They are well aware that there are Advantage players out there doing this. They seem pause for a while making such games, but not for long, Before you know it they are right back at it. Why is that? Because those so-called poorly designed slot machine are what actually seems to get the poppies in the seats and keeps them playing.
Not to mention Konami, since he thinks you have to design either board games or video games to have any real credibility.
Quote:At one point, I thought they all but solved the problem when they came out with a series of machines(I'm drawing a blank on the actual names of the machines, there were quite a few different titles) the machines were linked and had a community bonus. There was a timer on the machine that would count down or or add based on the speed and bet levels you were playing that is what qualified you for your portion of the prize pool. If you allowed it to hi zero you wouldn't qualify. There were a few that veered off a bit from the main design that were actually beatable. The Ebay slot seemed to be one of those, however, I had no actual math or hard evidence to back this up. My theory that was working well was that there seemed to be a hidden banking feature that you could somewhat time based on the others playing and their bet levels. The machines didn't last long for whatever reason and I didn't really see any other pros playing them, just tinkering around a bit, so my guess is that they weren't popular, they were expensive and took up too much space.
One was a Sex and the City variant. It was beatable just by playing it, betting minimum and letting the timer run all the way down to one second between spins. The only conditions that needed satisfied were you needed the other three seats (if betting minimum) all occupied with the players playing somewhat fast, or you needed one or more other players betting more than the minimum.
I suspect that you would go to bonus games based on a hidden accumulator that would just take everyone to bonus games when a certain total amount in bets had been made, but I can't be sure. There might have been a more random element to it.
I guess it might have been better to try to, "Time it," in terms of when to actually take spins, but just constantly betting minimum as little as possible seemed to work just fine. Again, I wasn't completely sure that it was accumulator based because I could only see one of the other seats (the other two were on the opposite side of the big screen). The time between bonuses also didn't seem extremely consistent...sometimes you'd have another bonus game within two minutes of the one that just ended, so I tend to think it was at least partially random.
Another big thing was that the game at least didn't seem to take into account how much you were betting when it came to how you did in the bonus games, but my sample size isn't big enough to be 100% sure of that. The different little games would have different credit awards based on how you placed, and I know I seemed to take first place a reasonable amount of the time despite the fact that I was making the least in total bets...by far.
I wish I could be certain with some of this stuff, but I worked full-time at a hotel at the time so didn't have the opportunity to play it as much as I would have liked. I think the game didn't even last two months before it was gone. It did take up a lot of real estate and not very many people seemed interested in it, which also limited my number of opportunities.
Quote: USpapergamesYou seem to really understand slot advantage play & I greatly appreciate you being able to read the thread and apply the knowledge being writing whatever comment compels you ;) Now to comment on what you are saying, I find it fascinating that there could be an actual purposely designed AP slot just to get people to fill the seats. I never would have come to this conclusion & I'm not fully convinced, yet the idea does seem rather logical which is why I'm considering what you just told me as potentially true.
You seem to believe that, because a slot can sometimes be AP'ed, that the casino loses money because of it. It doesn't. The house edge of the machine is based on long-term results, so casinos simply want machines that make money. You make money by drawing players to the game.
The only uphill battle that such games might have compared to others is that APs are going to play only when they think the game is in a positive state, then they are going to cash out when it isn't. That's obviously not something that you are going to see on machines that are incapable of entering a positive state in the first place. Casual players, again obviously, are more likely to just play until they hit something big or lose whatever they put in.
Anyway, I'll leave that for DRich to answer as I'm out of my element now. I don't know if there is a metric similar to, "Hold percentage," which is a table game concept that casinos look at...or if they're only concerned with how much actual cash a slot is making at the end of the day. I would suspect that if there is a metric similar to, "Hold percentage," that it tends to be a bit lower on slot games that can be AP'ed.
Quote:I always thought that a slots set was going to get filled regardless but apparently it's the idea that slots are AP plausible that gets people to want to play them in the 1st place. Let me ask you someone, & please think it over before giving me an answer. Do you think a slot machine that potentially could fool people into thinking that it was AP plausible would be successful? The problem is that's why I designed Royal Slots, to be mistaken as an AP plausible program but I think the real AP's will discover or solve the game design elements and realize that it's not possible to gain an edge. Does that mean my machine could become less in demand with less people playing it just because it's not AP plausible?
I think the first sentence is true to some extent for a few reasons, but it could be as simple as a player likes the features of the game, on an individual player basis.
Why I think that the first sentence is partially true is because the things that make the AP possible are features that can create the perception of value. Another reason is that I think some players will have a tendency not to want to leave accumulated value (in whatever form) behind, which may cause some players to play longer than they otherwise might or to insert more money. In some of these cases, the perception is wrong as the game is not yet in a positive state. You'll see this pretty often when it comes to a player, "Chasing progressives," that have not yet actually gone +EV.
As far as slot machines potentially fooling people in that way, yes, I do think such machines could be successful. More than that, I believe that such machines actually exist right now. Three Kings is an example of this that I have already mentioned. The Free Games accumulator progressive meters create the perception of value, but the game never goes positive---even if all three meters are topped out. There are also a number of progressive games that create the perception of value, and while they could theoretically go +EV, it's quite rare. Many games that have a single progressive are this way simply because of the huge odds against actually hitting the progressive. In some cases, it is that way because the progressive is unlikely to, "Miss enough cycles," for the progressive contributions to turn the game positive.
At the end of the day, you shouldn't really care whether or not AP's want to play your game. You should be concerned only with whether or not the game is enough fun for casual players to want to play it. I'd consider any negative expectation play you might get from APs trying to figure out whether or not it is beatable as, "Gravy." If the APs figure out that it can not be beaten, that is not a death sentence for your game. There are plenty of slot games that cannot be beaten. I think having some variable element that creates the perception of value for casual gamblers is, everything else being equal, going to be of benefit to you.
Quote: USpapergamesHold on, nobody was asking for specific machines, examples actually were good enough to convey the information I was looking for. The main issue with this thread was getting everyone to agree upon the already pre-established terms with the game design community.
Well, there might be some audience who cares about that. I only care about my bets having a profitable expectation. I don't really care what someone wants to call things, just that we're going to need to be using words the same way to have a conversation about it.
Quote: Mission146
Anyway, I'll leave that for DRich to answer as I'm out of my element now. I don't know if there is a metric similar to, "Hold percentage," which is a table game concept that casinos look at...or if they're only concerned with how much actual cash a slot is making at the end of the day. I would suspect that if there is a metric similar to, "Hold percentage," that it tends to be a bit lower on slot games that can be AP'ed.
The term you may be looking for is the theorhetical win. Of ocurse the most important thing to the slot director is the actual win but when evaluating a specific machine the most important thing is how far under theorhetical is the actual results. If a machhine is consistently under performing by a large margin it will probably be removed.
Quote: DRichThe term you may be looking for is the theorhetical win. Of ocurse the most important thing to the slot director is the actual win but when evaluating a specific machine the most important thing is how far under theorhetical is the actual results. If a machhine is consistently under performing by a large margin it will probably be removed.
Thanks!
Quote: DRichThe term you may be looking for is the theoretical win. Of course the most important thing to the slot director is the actual win but when evaluating a specific machine the most important thing is how far under theoretical is the actual results. If a machine is consistently under performing by a large margin it will probably be removed.
Slot directors should care that APs are taking money indirectly from ploppies, and that much of that money would have found its way into the casino hold. Some persistent-state games are going to pay out almost every large jackpot to a semi-aware player or true AP.
97%+ of AGS $5K jackpots go to a semi-aware player or true AP. You can debate the breakdown of that 97%.
I would guess that 90%+ of Harley Davidson Mega 3x free game prizes above 140 free games go to a semi-aware player or true AP.
By the way, the Harley Davidson violates the principle of reel independence. Specifically. you get the BONUS symbol on reels #1 and #3 independently and with roughly the same probability. You get both BONUS symbols about one out of eight spins. When this happens, the Mega symbol on reel #5 becomes very scarce. If this was an ordinary 5-reel slot, then reel #5 is clearly not stopping independently of reels #1 and #3. The Mini and Maxi symbols are not gaffed like the Mega symbol.
I have searched Regulation 14.010. This is the only pertinent regulation I am aware of. I interpret "the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant" and the ban on ‘variable secondary decisions’ to mean the reels must be stopping independently. I have a hunch how they get away with this for the HD game, but it is just a hunch. Possibly, they are just flouting the regulations. Below is part of Regulation 14.010 (Nevada Gaming Commission 2006): [2](b) For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game. For other gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant. 3. Must display an accurate representation of the game outcome. After selection of the game outcome, the gaming device must not make a variable secondary decision which affects the result shown to the player. The restriction included in subsection 14.010(3) that bans ‘variable secondary decisions’ means that games as programmed using an algorithm such as the one used by Universal are unacceptable.
Quote: MentalSlot directors should care that APs are taking money indirectly from ploppies, and that much of that money would have found its way into the casino hold. Some persistent-state games are going to pay out almost every large jackpot to a semi-aware player or true AP.
If they understand it I think most do care, but it is hard to evict people for doing that.
Quote: DRichThe term you may be looking for is the theorhetical win. Of ocurse the most important thing to the slot director is the actual win but when evaluating a specific machine the most important thing is how far under theorhetical is the actual results. If a machhine is consistently under performing by a large margin it will probably be removed.
Can a casino remove a leased machine? It seems like some machines have premium locations in most casinos. Is that the slot directors call?
Quote: billryanCan a casino remove a leased machine? It seems like some machines have premium locations in most casinos. Is that the slot directors call?
Yes, the slot directors can pull a machine at anytime and also determine where games will be placed. Like any business everything can be negotiated. The manufacturer may give you a better price or split if you give them a desirable location.
When a new leased machine is put in it usually has a minimum term, say 90 days, before you can remove it. If it is not doing well the manufacturer will generally offer you a trade out for another one of their titles.
I suspect I’m not the only player who may use some AP some of the time.
Quote: MentalFolks here tend to use the term variable-state slot, but the industry uses persistent-state to describe such slots. You are off base on why the industry likes persistent-state slots: https://ggbmagazine.com/article/global-games-2019-introduction/
Blackjack is a persistent-state game (less so, if dealt from a CSM). This was not an intentional design. I wish I could use a 1 to 20 bet spread on banking slot games.
What you call side games are very attractive to ploppies even if they have no persistent-state and are totally unexploitable by an AP. Free games, expanding reels, persistent wilds, etc. are a random windfall that is provided because it is very addictive to a ploppy. It is as if you were grinding in a 3/6 Omaha8 game where each hand takes five minutes to play, and then every 20 hands or so, you randomly get to switch to playing five hands of blitz 5/10 NL Holdem with the same table full of idiots. Now that would be 10 times more fun!
To me, the side games in advantage play are the freeroll drawings and tournaments. I once played a free toll VP tournament where the single lowest score also got a prize. You had to play all of your credits through (200 hands). I designed an optimal strategy for low score, and I expected others to try and compete for the low score. Nobody else tried. I managed to score exactly zero and I even had some spectators cheering for me to lose every hand when they figured out what I was up to. When I tried to collect, I found that the casino had ignored my score entirely. They assumed my zero score was an error and wrote someone with over 500 credits down as the low score. They did pay me in the end after they dug out my score sheet with a zero on it.
It's funny that you say I'm off base but the article doesn't say anything about why casinos prefer to use persistent slots :( Honestly, I probably am off because I don't see why casinos bother with side games to begin with because they take up a lot of time which hurts the number of games per hour & seems to upset customers more than making them happy. As for your assessment of what side games are like to puppies, you might be dead right that players just want the maximum amount of crazy game features you can add, even if the features are so much that they have no clue what is going on 😆
That you for sharing the term persistent slots. It's good to know it defines a specific type of sides game since the side game is all that people seem to be interested in, it makes sense to start classifying them ;) Btw industry terms, like persistent slots, should be avoided in favor of the standard game design terminology when discussing slot design with someone who isn't currently in the industry yet ;) Of course, the terms are appropriate for me since I want to be the digital gaming machine industry but your average person would have a much greater chance at already known certain game design terms over any casino industry terms. Seriously, great article to share. But as for the article I think we can all learn something about what your average slot player thinks about what makes a good slot machine!!!
So the article is written by Frank Legato, who isn't a game designer but has been writing casino articles for decades now. So if anyone knows what the publics opinion on slots are it should be him over any game designer (since the game designer is probably biased). But the problem is your average player doesn't know what makes them attracted to 1 slot machine over another, & I think this article is no different!
Right from the very beginning we get 3 paragraphs all about 4D UHD monitors :( There have been countless scientific articles showing that fancy technology only attracts new customers & does nothing to retain them yet technology is the #1 thing talked about when it comes to innovation 🤮
https://youtu.be/1B5UHZhimVQ
Everyone please watch this video above. I honestly believe Al Thomas is the worlds best slot machine designer & he makes it very clear that graphics are almost pointless! He even says at one point that the casinos might be losing money from the technology required to make these graphics that very few seem to care about lol
Quote: MentalSlot directors should care that APs are taking money indirectly from ploppies, and that much of that money would have found its way into the casino hold. Some persistent-state games are going to pay out almost every large jackpot to a semi-aware player or true AP.
(Quote clipped, relevance.)
Not counting creators, I don't know where this notion that APs are taking money indirectly from ploppies comes from. The APs are taking money from the casinos (the ploppies have already lost the money---at least by expectation--- for the variable state machine to be positive in the first place).
You could argue that the APs are taking value from future ploppies...and that is something I would agree with. The way that it works out, APs play the games when they are above 100% (which is above the long-term theoretical return of the game, obviously) and the ploppies--at least some of them--end up playing at a value that is below the long-term theoretical return of the game. Instead of an 88% game, for instance, maybe the APs are playing at an average of 110% and the ploppies at an average of 82%...I doubt anyone knows the exact numbers, but you get my point.
In any case, APs are not taking money from anybody. APs certainly did not invent the machines (unless they work for a slot manufacturer also), did not place the machines (unless they work for the casino), and APs are not the ones who played the game in a negative state and left it in a positive one. The only thing that the AP does that is adverse to the ploppies is extracting any positive EV from the machine and often (but not always) leaving the machine in a worse than average EV state. That depends on the play in question and can vary. Sometimes an AP can play until any value over 100% is gone, but still be leaving the game in a better than average state.
Quote:97%+ of AGS $5K jackpots go to a semi-aware player or true AP. You can debate the breakdown of that 97%.
I would guess that 90%+ of Harley Davidson Mega 3x free game prizes above 140 free games go to a semi-aware player or true AP.
By the way, the Harley Davidson violates the principle of reel independence. Specifically. you get the BONUS symbol on reels #1 and #3 independently and with roughly the same probability. You get both BONUS symbols about one out of eight spins. When this happens, the Mega symbol on reel #5 becomes very scarce. If this was an ordinary 5-reel slot, then reel #5 is clearly not stopping independently of reels #1 and #3. The Mini and Maxi symbols are not gaffed like the Mega symbol.
(Quote clipped, relevance)
This has been discussed elsewhere and it has been demonstrated that MEGA Free Games should be approximately twice as frequent based on how frequently the Mega symbol shows up.
My theory on this is that MEGA symbols are not taken away, they are added. Specifically, my theory is this:
Bonus + Bonus = Mega Probability Stays The Same
Bonus + No Bonus = More Mega symbols added to the fifth reel.
No Bonus + Bonus = More Mega symbols added to the fifth reel.
No Bonus + No Bonus = More Mega symbols added to the fifth reel.
This could be done based on the code that you cited, which is in your above post. The reason why is because it could choose to add MEGA symbols only on plays that the player was going to lose anyway, which would be perfectly within the code, at least, in my non legally qualified opinion.
In other words, I think it's possible that the game makes a decision based on the, "Normal," probabilities, and provided there is not going to be a bonus AND the addition of MEGA symbols would not negatively influence the player's result (not blocking pays, not blocking 5OAKs the player would otherwise be getting) then the game simply adds MEGA symbols to the fifth reel as it does not change the fact that the player is going to lose the spin anyway...or get paid whatever on winning line results.
All of this could be wrong. I want to reiterate that this is only my theory, but it would explain the disparity in the number of MEGA symbols seen by a player in total compared to the seemingly incongruous probability of hitting MEGA Free Games.
Quote: Mission146If getting the fire flower to transform the way you can kill enemies in Super Mario Brothers is a separate game, then I guess you're right.
Another thing when it comes to Ocean Magic---it would not meet jurisdictional minimum returns if the bubble component was not considered part of the game. Since you are also arguing that Free Games are not part of the game, then on a, "Just the reels," basis, Ocean Magic would likely return less than 40%.
Getting the fire flower is definitely not considered a side game by the definition I gave earlier. However when you get to the special stage were you can choose which levels to skip is definitely a side game ;)
Quote: Mission146Same game. Two logical reasons to support my assertion:
1.) You make ONE bet. You make a bet and then you either win or lose. Almost always, getting Free Games does not require any additional bets to be made (the only exceptions I can think of are highly specific Video Keno games and one specific Video Poker game) therefore, the game is concluded only when another bet needs to be made in order to start a new game.
2.) W2G for jackpot purposes. If you hit Free Games and your winnings total $1,200, or more, you will be issued a W2G even if the threshold is crossed due to accumulated winnings rather than the win on one spin. Therefore, it is clearly treated as all being one game, or, 'Play,' if you will, in that regard.
Why is it you would rather make up your own terms than to stick to the industry standard terms??? We define the game to be over once the game has established its outcomes!!! The reason why it's a side game is because in order for the side game to even begin, the player must 1st play the slot game & win the opportunity to play the side game. Does this make sense? The main game is over (or paused) & the main game is paying out a credit to play the side game as part of it's payout!!! At some point in just going to give up all together on teaching you anything if you refuse to listen 👂
Quote: Mission146I'm going to tell you why this is nonsense: With Golden Egypt, you accumulate the coins to turn the reels wild for the designated number of spins. Absent that, the coins which are on the reels do nothing. They do not operate on a scatter basis, they are not wild and they do not result in a payline even if you were to hit three of them in a row. If not for the ability to accumulate them, their presence would only hurt you by blocking potential winning lines.
With that in mind, I ask this: How could the coins possibly be considered a side game when the mechanism is built into the main reels and otherwise does nothing?
Yes 👋 that is correct, I think before I explain Golden Egypt you 1st have to understand what a minigame is :/
Quote: USpapergamesWhy is it you would rather make up your own terms than to stick to the industry standard terms??? We define the game to be over once the game has established its outcomes!!! The reason why it's a side game is because in order for the side game to even begin, the player must 1st play the slot game & win the opportunity to play the side game. Does this make sense? The main game is over (or paused) & the main game is paying out a credit to play the side game as part of it's payout!!! At some point in just going to give up all together on teaching you anything if you refuse to listen 👂
No, like everything else you spew this makes no sense.
Quote: USpapergamesIt's funny that you say I'm off base but the article doesn't say anything about why casinos prefer to use persistent slots :( Honestly, I probably am off because I don't see why casinos bother with side games to begin with because they take up a lot of time which hurts the number of games per hour & seems to upset customers more than making them happy. As for your assessment of what side games are like to puppies, you might be dead right that players just want the maximum amount of crazy game features you can add, even if the features are so much that they have no clue what is going on 😆
Who said they prefer them? The casino prefers slots that they think will make money. That's like saying that a casino, "Prefers," video poker just because it happens to have some video poker games.
Your next sentence stumbles on something. You may not be aware of this, but psychological studies actually have shown that it is the, "Near Miss," that lights up the player's brain the most. The anticipation. The expectation. Even if they hit a crappy set of Free Games, something in the brain says, "Oh, well the next set should be pretty good then since that set didn't perform as well as it, 'should.' Of course, I know and you should know that one set of Free Games has no bearing on future sets, in terms of performance and all else being equal.
If the players are bored by the games and choose not to play, then the number of games per hour is zero. There was once a time that the majority of slot machine games on a casino's floor were single-line games with no special features. If you hit three of this symbol, then you win this much. Sometimes they would pay for hitting one Cherry or two Cherries if they were feeling especially creative.
While single-line slot machine games still exist in most casinos, there is no question that they are in the minority. I believe you're definitely intelligent enough to know why that is, but I'll tell you anyway: Because most people think they are boring.
So, the answer is simple: If the number of games per hour was the most important factor and not, "Taking up a lot of time," then all of the games on the casino floor would not have features that take up a lot of time.
However, that's not the most important factor. The most important factor is making money. Machines with features make money. Machines without any feature are generally ignored, or only played by a small segment of players.
Simply: If the players were only playing the single-line slot games with no features, then soon those would be back to being the majority of slot games in the casino again. If you can come up with a popular slot title with a crazy high SPH that makes more money than the other machines, and get your device on the casino floor, then there is no question you will have great success in the slot machine development business.
Quote:That you for sharing the term persistent slots. It's good to know it defines a specific type of sides game since the side game is all that people seem to be interested in, it makes sense to start classifying them ;) Btw industry terms, like persistent slots, should be avoided in favor of the standard game design terminology when discussing slot design with someone who isn't currently in the industry yet ;)
Yeah, you're on a gambling forum. This is not a video game or board game message board. If you want to go to China and speak nothing but English, then don't expect every single person you encounter to understand you.
Quote:Of course, the terms are appropriate for me since I want to be the digital gaming machine industry but your average person would have a much greater chance at already known certain game design terms over any casino industry terms. Seriously, great article to share. But as for the article I think we can all learn something about what your average slot player thinks about what makes a good slot machine!!!
People that come to this forum tend to already have an interest in gambling. Even if they didn't...they would usually describe something, we would say, "Oh, you mean (gambling terminology used for that thing)," and something would click in their brains and they would learn the word that gambling folks use to describe that thing and start using it.
Quote:So the article is written by Frank Legato, who isn't a game designer but has been writing casino articles for decades now. So if anyone knows what the publics opinion on slots are it should be him over any game designer (since the game designer is probably biased). But the problem is your average player doesn't know what makes them attracted to 1 slot machine over another, & I think this article is no different!
Have you considered the possibility that the casinos might not WANT the average player to know that slot machines are intentionally designed to be habit-forming? That they are specifically designed to stimulate the brain a certain way causing the release of chemicals that make the player want to play more?
Quote:Right from the very beginning we get 3 paragraphs all about 4D UHD monitors :( There have been countless scientific articles showing that fancy technology only attracts new customers & does nothing to retain them yet technology is the #1 thing talked about when it comes to innovation 🤮
https://youtu.be/1B5UHZhimVQ
Everyone please watch this video above. I honestly believe Al Thomas is the worlds best slot machine designer & he makes it very clear that graphics are almost pointless! He even says at one point that the casinos might be losing money from the technology required to make these graphics that very few seem to care about lol
Watching it. I'll do another post if this interests me at all. I don't care if the graphics on a slot machine look like a 1970 box TV, I care whether or not it is mathematically beatable.
Quote: USpapergamesWhy is it you would rather make up your own terms than to stick to the industry standard terms??? We define the game to be over once the game has established its outcomes!!!
Yes, I agree with this statement and in the Gaming industry the outcome is not determined until the machine is ready for the next bet. Every single approved slot machine has a meter that counts the number of games played. It increments once when the game starts and doesn;t increment again until the next wager is placed and a new game is played. If you win 10 free spins that does not increment the meter 10 times. It is all one game.
Quote: Mission146Yes, they do. For one example, on any number of Quick Hits games, the jackpots are won by hitting certain numbers of the Scatter "Quick Hit," symbols which are on the reels and are part of the main game. While they are not quite as popular as they used to be, there are still any number of other machines that have jackpots that are based on hitting particular amounts of scatter symbols.
So apparently some of us still can't quite grasp what the slot game means. Is this the game your talking about? Looks like a side game bonus to me but maybe it's a minigame? Please explain in detail how the jackpot are won and I can definitely make a determination ;)
https://youtu.be/2a9W6kv094s
Quote: USpapergamesGetting the fire flower is definitely not considered a side game by the definition I gave earlier. However when you get to the special stage were you can choose which levels to skip is definitely a side game ;)
SMB1 or SMB3?
In SMB1, the 1-2 warp is not a special stage at all, it just requires accessing a hidden area in World 1-2. From there, you can go to Worlds 2, 3 or 4.
As far as the 4-2 warp zone is concerned, it's true that you either had to take the vine to a different area to get to it, or to do the pipe glitch (which still requires you hit the block that releases the vine)...but one thing that you will notice in the area with the mushroom trees is that, ACCORDING TO THE GAME, you are still in World 4-2. Therefore, that is just an area in World 4-2 that is hidden, but still part of the Stage called 4-2. It is not a separate stage.
So, your argument there is wrong.
In SMB3, you do go to a different stage, but I fail to see how that is a side game. First of all, the, "Warp Zone," is designated as, "World 9," on the bottom of the screen, so one must conclude it is part of the main game. Secondly, the two warp whistles I would use (there may be more, but you only need two to get to World 8) are, "Behind the curtain," in World 1-3, accessed by doing the wait and drop down trick...and also in the hidden portion of the World 1 castle stage if you fly above everything rather than advancing to that stage's boss.
In other words, while hidden, both warp whistles are accessible via main stages in the game, so I would think, be considered a part of the main game.
Quote: Mission146Okay...so what you are wanting is a slot machine that has no Free Games, no progressives, no accumulator functions and is also not variable state. It sounds like you might also want it not to have any wild symbols.
Based on those criteria, no, there would not be very many slot games that are AP plausible absent some external element having nothing to do with the game itself. None that I am aware of, anyway.
In other words, single-line flattop games do not tend to pay out more than 100%, nor do multi-line flat top games. I'm shocked if you didn't already know that. I HOPE you would have assumed that all of us already did know that.
And, I'm also not saying it's impossible. You could have the results * probabilities = Expected Return for each result all add up to a number greater than 1...but I certainly couldn't name one.
Thank you for understanding my question! You even call the "external elements" so why is it so hard to see them as a side game which is not part of the main game is they are external form the game. It's funny because you agree with me & don't even realize it 😆
