Ethics: Teaching Your Kids to Gamble
Any thoughts, especially those with kids?
Quote: GialmereMy youngest kid turns 21 this year and she wants to go to Vegas to mark the occasion. My wife told her that I would teach her what she needed to know. But should I? I don't really want to encourage anyone to gamble. Who knows what circuit breakers will trip in a given person's head once they start? On the other hand, I do want my kids to know how to gamble responsibly and how not to be a complete sucker at it if they do play.
Any thoughts, especially those with kids?
NOT a good idea to teach your kid or anyone how to gamble.
I teach people all the time. I am amazed, simply amazed at how many people can get to adulthood and not know even the rank of hands in poker. I can never believe how many people sit at BJ and think they are playing against each other and not the dealer.
I taught my niece to play BJ at about age 6. I assume she taught her younger brother. I taught her basic dealing at around 10, which she proceeded with my encouragement (you learn best when you teach what you just learned) to the adults in the room after.
Gaming is everywhere and is expanding to more places every day. The trend is it keeps going for at least another generation. You can teach her what is what or she can go to a casino and lose everything then go to the ATM for more.
Oh, yeah, teach her to never, ever sit at a 6:5 BJ table!
I remember from my days in A.C., and they're probably still there - those machines made for very young kids where they pay $.50 to try to manipulate a claw into a plastic container to pull out a very cheap piece of junk jewelry or some other cheap junk
to me, those machines were just wrong, and they shouldn't have been allowed IMO - they have the potential to addict a child at a very young age
although on 2nd thought, kids today are much more into video games and probably aren't attracted to that stuff much any more
video games, of course, can also be addictive
My younger son will be getting a sports betting account when legal in NY. He knows it will be a likely losing effort, but has decided he wants to bet on some events to make them more interesting to him.
I can see my older son never making a negative EV bet the rest of his life.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesNOT a good idea to teach your kid or anyone how to gamble.
That sounds like a sure-fire way to get their wallet cleaned out if they're even given the opportunity to gamble...
Gambling "intelligently" is kinda nonsense. Like you get 5 extra hands a trip before your money is gone. Who really cares.
Much better to never be a degen. I'd let her play a few hands of this or that just to have the experience, then steer her to all the stuff you can spend money on and actually get something in return.
Like hookersand blow.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesNOT a good idea to teach your kid or anyone how to gamble.
Going to disagree with this one. Just like opioids. Teaching kids how bad they are at a young age instead of ignoring them and hoping they never hear about them.
Quote: RigondeauxFirstly, I'd say this is a bad group to ask. Gambling "intelligently" is kinda nonsense. Like you get 5 extra hands a trip before your money is gone.
I agree that it's not a good group to ask.
but I don't agree that you can't gamble in a way that's basically harmless - although I don't think I would use the word "intelligent"
many tourists will go on their week's vacation and budget themselves for example with $500 cash and no more
yes, quite a few will not stick to that plan - but quite a few will - I don't see anything wrong or harmful about that
I think it's somewhere around 2% of those who gamble that get into deep trouble with it
what can you do? the same is true with alcohol. should you tell your kid they can never have a drink?
Quote: billryanMost 21 year olds don't go to Vegas for the gambling. They go for the night clubs/dayclubs/afterhours clubs, and so on and so forth. I doubt there is much you can teach her about that.
Heh, heh. Okay, as her father I'd worry more if she took her birthday money and went Vegas clubbing than if she took the money and ran to the slot machines. What if she meets someone like this...
Quote: RigondeauxI'd let her play a few hands of this or that just to have the experience, then steer her to all the stuff you can spend money on and actually get something in return.
Like hookersand blow.
...at a club?
As far as real teaching in general, I think we should teach the game of 21 to kids in first grade and I think we should teach everyone to think in terms of probabilities.
Then I'd make sure they weren't betting the rent or the tuition, and let a casino clean them out. Shouldn't take more than one night. I think everybody has to fall on their butt at least once, maybe twice, and then they can be reasonable about it being their entertainment, not their miracle moneymaker.
Quote: TomGThe biggest problem with teaching someone about gambling isn't the ethical implications, it's that it is almost certainly a waste of time. I like to just say "It's not gambling, it's just giving money away."
I would argue that many people see it as paying for entertainment. It's no more "giving money away" than going to the movies or a football game or treating yourself to a nice dinner is.
Quote:As far as real teaching in general, I think we should teach the game of 21 to kids in first grade and I think we should teach everyone to think in terms of probabilities.
I knew how to play blackjack and poker by the time I was maybe 10. Never played for money back then, though. I think learning games like that is good for the developing brain.
They want to gamble? Go in eyes open. Know the odds. Know the sucker bets. Set a budget and either get lucky or stop when you lose it.
Quote: AZDuffmanMy position is you should have been teaching her since she was about 10.
I agree. I have been gambling with my son for small stakes since about that age. We are at a standoff over a $1 bet on whether Pegasus was a single mythical winged unicorn or a term for all of them.
Quote: WizardI agree. I have been gambling with my son for small stakes since about that age. We are at a standoff over a $1 bet on whether Pegasus was a single mythical winged unicorn or a term for all of them.
IDK who is where on that one, but Pegasus was a particular mythical winged stallion (not a unicorn). The name for that creature is a pterippus. All from the Greek. So it seems likely you're both a draw. :)
Quote: lilredroosterI agree that it's not a good group to ask.
but I don't agree that you can't gamble in a way that's basically harmless - although I don't think I would use the word "intelligent"
many tourists will go on their week's vacation and budget themselves for example with $500 cash and no more
yes, quite a few will not stick to that plan - but quite a few will - I don't see anything wrong or harmful about that
I think it's somewhere around 2% of those who gamble that get into deep trouble with it
what can you do? the same is true with alcohol. should you tell your kid they can never have a drink?
Maybe 2% of people who ever gamble have a problem. People currently in a u.s. casino. Or worse, an online one. It's more like 50%, at least.
Gambling and alcohol are pretty different. Alcohol can be an almost totally harmless part of a gourmet experience. It is social and cultural. Most of us have had some fantastic times with booze, if also some risky or painful ones. Maybe a drink gave you the courage to talk to a great love, or a great lay. Granted,. It could also give you the courage to get your ass beat or wind up in jail.
Degen gambling is more akin to self harm. It drains time and money and offers nothing in return other than a perverse pleasure in losing time and money.
You can substitute "Craps" for "alcohol" in the above paragraph, and everything would still be true with the exception of going to jail because of it.Quote: RigondeauxAlcohol can be an almost totally harmless part of a gourmet experience. It is social and cultural. Most of us have had some fantastic times with booze, if also some risky or painful ones. Maybe a drink gave you the courage to talk to a great love, or a great lay. Granted,. It could also give you the courage to get your ass beat or wind up in jail.
ETA:
Substitute "drinking" for "gambling" in the above, and it is still true.Quote:Degen gambling is more akin to self harm. It drains time and money and offers nothing in return
Quote: JoemanYou can substitute "Craps" for "alcohol" in the above paragraph, and everything would still be true with the exception of going to jail because of it.
ETA:Substitute "drinking" for "gambling" in the above, and it is still true.
No. There is no such thing as fine craps, or craft craps. Nobody has a nice craps with dinner.
Craps, in particular, is social in a very casual short term way. Nobody bonds or has deep conversation with friends over craps. I think very very few relationships begin at a craps table.
Only a degen gambler would say they had many great times gambling because, to a normal mind, not much is really happening. Your money goes up and down and ultimately down and that's it.
I had a friend who got drunk and humped a police horse. I used to have beers and long talks with students and the occasional prof in college. I've gone wine tasting in Sonoma. Etc. Etc.
A night of gambling might be an occasional adventure for a normal person but it is just one activity, like trying to beat an eating challenge at a restaurant or something.
This is why this is a bad place to ask the question.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesNOT a good idea to teach your kid or anyone how to gamble.
Daughters who are kept ignorant of sex often wind up pregnant. gambling is best taught so as to avoid poverty.
its not just 'don't gamble' but don't gamble ignorantly.
bridge, hearts and gin-rummy are social games, cribbage seems to be making a comeback. Dormitory residents, yachties, need to know how to play,
not necessarily for money but it is common to raise the ante as the game progresses.
Well, yes, craps would never be a part of a "gourmet" experience, but it could be very well a part of an evening's overall experience.Quote: RigondeauxNo. There is no such thing as fine craps, or craft craps. Nobody has a nice craps with dinner.
The same could be said for alcoholics. Your experiences are what you make of them. I have had great experiences without either gambling or drinking. I have had both good and bad experiences drinking. I have had both good and bad experiences gambling. I have bonded with friends at the craps table and a poker table.Quote:Craps, in particular, is social in a very casual short term way. Nobody bonds or has deep conversation with friends over craps.
Only a degen gambler would say they had many great times gambling because, to a normal mind, not much is really happening. Your money goes up and down and ultimately down and that's it.
Yikes!Quote:I had a friend who got drunk and humped a police horse.
I will grant you that such opportunities are more plentiful and accessible than gambling. But the thrust of this argument and the one above is that problem drinking can have similar deleterious effects as degenerate gambling. Though I have no scientific knowledge either way, I would say that a propensity for either is equally likely based on my experiences, and that teaching someone about gambling is as harmful or harmless as teaching them about drinking. I'm guessing your experiences tell you something different.Quote:I used to have beers and long talks with students and the occasional prof in college. I've gone wine tasting in Sonoma. Etc. Etc.
An alcoholic's night may consist of only a single activity as well. I would invite you to read one of my trip reports posted here. Most of my gambling trips are adventures with some gambling mixed in.Quote:A night of gambling might be an occasional adventure for a normal person but it is just one activity
I don't know about that. I have challenged your statements, but I don't think I have done so in a disrespectful manner. I do see your points, but I would venture to guess our experiences observing people gambling and drinking differ.Quote:This is why this is a bad place to ask the question.
Would you care to continue this discussion at the bar or the craps table? :)
Quote: RigondeauxMaybe a drink gave you the courage to talk to a great love, or a great lay.
I thought a great lay was one you didn't have to talk to 😁
Of everyone having a drink tonight a small percentage are problem drinkers.
Outside of AP or bettting with friends, gambling is just the practice of losing money on coin flips rigged against you for the sake of doing so. You can find some exceptions like bettting $25 a week on your team or whatever. But spending significant time and money in a casino is not really normal behavior and it has few, if any benefits or other dimensions to it.
Of people visiting a casino tonight,a very large % have a problem. At least a very bad habbit.
Having worked in casinos I've seen it first hand.
Also, gamblers are generally just messed up people, as a class. Idk if it cultivates bad tendencies or they gamble cuz they have them.
I would educate a kid about gambling, but mainly about the fact that it is a stupid waste of life. Not about VP strat or gambling "smart".
Is watching television any better or worse?
I get what you’re saying, and agree for the most part actually. I guess I’d just add that there’s a lot of things we do that are wastes of time. You might as well lose less money if you’re wasting time at a casino.
Quote: Rigondeaux
Of people visiting a casino tonight,a very large % have a problem. At least a very bad habbit.
Having worked in casinos I've seen it first hand.
Also, gamblers are generally just messed up people, as a class. Idk if it cultivates bad tendencies or they gamble cuz they have them.
I do a lot of work with taverns and their gaming machines. Probably the sickest gamblers you will see will be in a local tavern.
Quote: DRichI do a lot of work with taverns and their gaming machines. Probably the sickest gamblers you will see will be in a local tavern.
7-11s?
The real problem is how it's introduced these days. 30 years ago if you went in underage they tossed you then and there. Now the kids are going onto the computer and playing video poker at that same age and are not familiar with the emotional realities and psycholical tricks that real casinos have developed over the decades. It's only after their bankroll is gone that they realize that just having a basic strategy card at the table and that their new system doesn't work that a little bit of reality sets in.
It's not right for daddy to take his kid to Belmont for the ponies but you need to teach them about it at a young age so that they can handle it when they are adults.
Because they don't run til April! ;)Quote: FinsRuleWait, why can’t I take my kids to Belmont?
I have three kids and have taught them all how to ballpark the basic probabilities they will encounter at the casino. However, I will not bankroll their play. They must risk their own hard earned money.
Quote: FinsRuleWait, why can’t I take my kids to Belmont?
Breakfast at Belmont.
Quote: beachbumbabsIDK who is where on that one, but Pegasus was a particular mythical winged stallion (not a unicorn). The name for that creature is a pterippus. All from the Greek. So it seems likely you're both a draw. :)
Sometimes Pegasus is drawn with a horn. This image is from the Wikipedia Pegasus page.
Quote: WikipediaThe emblem of the World War II, British Airborne Forces, Bellerophon riding the flying horse Pegasus.
During World War II, the silhouetted image of Bellerophon the warrior, mounted on the winged Pegasus, was adopted by the United Kingdom's newly raised parachute troops in 1941 as their upper sleeve insignia.
Quote: SkittleCar1He asked how come I seem to always come home with money. I'd tell him, luck, and knowing when to stop.
That is, of course, the wrong answer.
I don’t think it matters how the British drew Pegasus in 1941. How did the Ancient Greeks draw Pegasus?Quote: WizardSometimes Pegasus is drawn with a horn. This image is from the Wikipedia Pegasus page.
Quote: WizardThat is, of course, the wrong answer.
What should I have told him?
(I have no contact with him anymore, and he's an adult now, so he's on his own.)
Quote: RigondeauxGambling "intelligently" is kinda nonsense.
Huh? I disagree.
Firstly, I hope we can all agree that gambling is a form of entertainment. I know there are several AP’s that fail to see any entertainment in -EV gambling, but they are wrong plain and simple. There are plenty of recreational players who are not degenerate addicts.
Secondly, if we can’t agree on that, can we agree that drinking is a form of entertainment?
You could argue that my $15 Netflix subscription is not an “intelligent” purchase. I certainly don’t need it. But it provides me more entertainment value than it costs.
I think playing $10 PGP and drinking for free is a damn good deal compared to going to a bar and paying $8/drink.
Online Gambling
[I'm uncertain where I can tread since I know that the "powers that be" here are promoters, but I'll trust that I can speak frankly on the matter.]
I am concerned about the effect that online gambling has on both children and society in a similar way that I'm concerned about the effect that online pornography has on both children and society. When I was a kid, the only porn I ever saw was maybe a Playboy magazine or two that a friend got a hold of; a cheap thrill but, at that age, one does with the tools one has at hand (no bad pun intended). Today, by contrast, any kid with a cellphone can watch any porn film ever made.
When I was a kid, you couldn't gamble until you were old enough to enter a casino. At best you could play some nickle and dime games with your friends which was the gambling equivalent to a Playboy magazine. No big deal. Today, any kid with a cellphone (and a little computer savvy) can open an account and gamble away. (I recently read a distressing article about teen gambling addiction in Britain.)
So yes, I do think that society would be better off without online vice. I'm strongly opposed, however, to banning things that the vast majority of people use responsibly just because a small minority of people have trouble with it. Parents in the internet age will just have to come to grips with the fact that they have to keep a very sharp eye on what their kids are accessing.
This Forum
I do think this is a great place to ask opinions. Should I ask at a church forum? WoV has experienced, open-minded gamblers (many of them parents) who have seen it all: the good, the bad and the very, very ugly. There's been many useful responses on this thread (both pro and con) that have given me food for thought.
Kudos to the Wizard who tells you point blank that you should expect to lose (3rd COMANDMENT) but, if you insist on continuing, here's the best strategies to limit your losses...etc. (I'm not considering AP which is a beast unto itself.) He also (speaking of OLG) recently ripped an online casino in his review of it for not having a page for problem gamblers.
Also kudos to to Michael Bluejay who's Easy.Vegas website has an intense (scared straight) section on gambling addiction and a section on suggested casino reforms such as not allowing casinos to cash paychecks. On our recent Vegas trip (which incidentally included my daughter from the OP), my wife was stunned to see a sign at the cashiers cage displaying the rules for cashing your paycheck. They essentially boiled down to YES YOU CAN!!!
Quote: gamerfreakHuh? I disagree.
Firstly, I hope we can all agree that gambling is a form of entertainment. I
I think playing $10 PGP and drinking for free is a damn good deal compared to going to a bar and paying $8/drink.
Again, someone doing this is fine. Needless to say, this is not where casino profits come from. If you go to a typical casino, not a mega resort, you will see a bunch of degens taking their last $60 out at the ATM while there kids are at home, unattended.
A lot of the stuff on Netflix is art. Or at least mentally engaging. But obviously if you occasionally piss away time playing pgp and drinking, it's inconsequential.
The thing is, that is pretty much the absolute best case scenario for getting into gambling. So I would steer a kid in the other direction hard.
Quote: GialmereI wanted address a few issues this thread has brought up...
Online Gambling
[I'm uncertain where I can tread since I know that the "powers that be" here are promoters, but I'll trust that I can speak frankly on the matter.]
I am concerned about the effect that online gambling has on both children and society in a similar way that I'm concerned about the effect that online pornography has on both children and society. When I was a kid, the only porn I ever saw was maybe a Playboy magazine or two that a friend got a hold of; a cheap thrill but, at that age, one does with the tools one has at hand (no bad pun intended). Today, by contrast, any kid with a cellphone can watch any porn film ever made.
When I was a kid, you couldn't gamble until you were old enough to enter a casino. At best you could play some nickle and dime games with your friends which was the gambling equivalent to a Playboy magazine. No big deal. Today, any kid with a cellphone (and a little computer savvy) can open an account and gamble away. (I recently read a distressing article about teen gambling addiction in Britain.)
So yes, I do think that society would be better off without online vice. I'm strongly opposed, however, to banning things that the vast majority of people use responsibly just because a small minority of people have trouble with it. Parents in the internet age will just have to come to grips with the fact that they have to keep a very sharp eye on what their kids are accessing.
This Forum
I do think this is a great place to ask opinions. Should I ask at a church forum? WoV has experienced, open-minded gamblers (many of them parents) who have seen it all: the good, the bad and the very, very ugly. There's been many useful responses on this thread (both pro and con) that have given me food for thought.
Kudos to the Wizard who tells you point blank that you should expect to lose (3rd COMANDMENT) but, if you insist on continuing, here's the best strategies to limit your losses...etc. (I'm not considering AP which is a beast unto itself.) He also (speaking of OLG) recently ripped an online casino in his review of it for not having a page for problem gamblers.
Also kudos to to Michael Bluejay who's Easy.Vegas website has an intense (scared straight) section on gambling addiction and a section on suggested casino reforms such as not allowing casinos to cash paychecks. On our recent Vegas trip (which incidentally included my daughter from the OP), my wife was stunned to see a sign at the cashiers cage displaying the rules for cashing your paycheck. They essentially boiled down to YES YOU CAN!!!
Really good post.
The reason I say this is a bad group to ask is that I think a lot of people see heavy gambling as normal. It's not a neutral group, any more than a bunch of curchies
Comparing or evaluating vices is interesting. I think one thing you can do is ask if the world would be better off had X never been discovered or invented.
Alcohol: interesting debate. I'd have to listen to both sides.
Porn: I figure we'd be better off without it, but I think it could be debated on. I don't think it's often utterly destructive to people, except maybe the performers.
Gambling:. Good for me, but clearly a massive net loss for people in general. To debate this would be like debating a flat earthen.
I don't think any of it should be illegal. I'd be open to stuff like advertising being restricted or banned. ATMs and cash checking being banned. How to minimize the damage is another interesting debate.
Some people just like being in casinos. They know they will lose but they get food comps, drawing tickets, and useless trinkets. They just want to be appreciated. The amount of money they spend in -EV gets them a place to go, a place to entertain themselves, and a place to feel like a guest. I think the casino industry gets customer service down pat. Even for randoms they have a higher level of service than normal. I feel that the average gambler never gets close in terms of customer service anywhere else in their lives. I don't think I've ever been treated like a Burberry customer at a Smith's or Walmart ever. Even without putting in any play at all I feel the baseline of service is higher at a casino than anywhere else.
Idk the best way to explain to a kid that gambling = bad, other than going over the math and showing the probability of being up or down over some X amount of time (IE: the long run), and actually truly showing that the more you gamble the less likely you are to be ahead.
After all, the entertainment from gambling is that you have the possibility to win....but the more you gamble, the less likely you are to be a winner, therefore the more you gamble the less entertaining it is (or should be).
Quote: Rigondeaux
The reason I say this is a bad group to ask is that I think a lot of people see heavy gambling as normal. It's not a neutral group, any more than a bunch of churchies
That's a fair point. A person who smokes marijuana once a week would tend to think of a person who smokes it once a day as a heavy user. Meanwhile, a person who smokes marijuana once a day would tend to think of a person who smokes it several times a day as a heavy user.
Quote: RigondeauxAlcohol: interesting debate. I'd have to listen to both sides.
Yeah, alcohol is interesting. Used responsibly it can obviously enhance or even create a good time. More often than not, however, I find myself wishing that Prohibition had succeeded. How many lives have been destroyed by booze? How many people have been killed by drunk drivers? How many wives have been beaten by their beer sopped husbands when some football team lost? How many kids have been slapped around by their alcoholic mothers? And yet, if calls to reinstate the 18th Amendment were to rise, I'd be against it.
Quote: RSMy parents bought me some poker book when I was like 16 I think (they probably didn't know how old I was), and I turned out at least somewhat normal.
After reading the OP I was leaning towards the yes.Quote: SkittleCar1I taught my ex-girlfriends son everything about 5 years ago. We brought out the chips. The layout. Taught him blackjack, a bunch of carnival games, and his favorite, craps. He got the idea, I'd start him with $200, and he'd play until he lost all his "money." He asked how come I seem to always come home with money. I'd tell him, luck, and knowing when to stop.
After reading this post I would say it depends on what and who is doing the teaching.
