Shuffle Master on Ultimate Texas Hold Em
I played again one day and when I sat down the pit boss came over and I asked what they were entering in the computer and they said how much I cashed in for, I said "oh, anything else?", they said my wager, I said "anything else?", they said how many players were playing, I said "why does that matter, the machine deals out 2 cards non stop regardless how many are playing", they had no answer.
Another time whenever the pit boss wasn't around I would play 2 hands and low and behold the person at 3rd base was now getting the dealers cards and were cleaning up.
Wondering what everyone else's opinion on this is?
Quote: joek3533So I used to really like Ultimate Texas Holdem until one day a dealer and me were talking and I asked him if he plays it on his off time and he said he would absolutely Never play it, I asked why? He said because the Shuffle Master machine, it knows what cards are going where. Since then I started to really watch all the ridiculous bad beats the dealer would give to the rest of the table, so many 2,K,4 on flop, 6,Q on river and what does the dealer have every time? 3,5 for the ridiculous straight. Also since then I have had many other dealers tell me the same thing, that there is no way they would play because the machine is fixed like a slot machine.
I played again one day and when I sat down the pit boss came over and I asked what they were entering in the computer and they said how much I cashed in for, I said "oh, anything else?", they said my wager, I said "anything else?", they said how many players were playing, I said "why does that matter, the machine deals out 2 cards non stop regardless how many are playing", they had no answer.
Another time whenever the pit boss wasn't around I would play 2 hands and low and behold the person at 3rd base was now getting the dealers cards and were cleaning up.
Wondering what everyone else's opinion on this is?
You are getting wrong info.
The shuffle machine can sort cards back into new deck order. It can't deal certain cards to certain positions.
The Pit Boss was definitely writing down your start time, buy in and average bet. He was not writing down how many players were playing on the table with you, unless it was on a separate document called a head count or something similar. This head count is done every hour for every table to help with scheduling and employee management.
Go back to playing UTH.
ZCore13
Quote: joek3533So I used to really like Ultimate Texas Holdem until one day a dealer and me were talking and I asked him if he plays it on his off time and he said he would absolutely Never play it, I asked why? He said because the Shuffle Master machine, it knows what cards are going where. Since then I started to really watch all the ridiculous bad beats the dealer would give to the rest of the table, so many 2,K,4 on flop, 6,Q on river and what does the dealer have every time? 3,5 for the ridiculous straight. Also since then I have had many other dealers tell me the same thing, that there is no way they would play because the machine is fixed like a slot machine.
I played again one day and when I sat down the pit boss came over and I asked what they were entering in the computer and they said how much I cashed in for, I said "oh, anything else?", they said my wager, I said "anything else?", they said how many players were playing, I said "why does that matter, the machine deals out 2 cards non stop regardless how many are playing", they had no answer.
Another time whenever the pit boss wasn't around I would play 2 hands and low and behold the person at 3rd base was now getting the dealers cards and were cleaning up.
Wondering what everyone else's opinion on this is?
i have recently just released my take on the situation about blackjack and the md3 shuffle master machines. its called "The parity problem" and it sounds like it might pertain to what is happening with the hold em poker hands.
In my opinion, to make a long story short, you arent necessarily playing the game you think you are playing, but a functionally similar game that plays like holdem, or in my case, blackjack, but I do play hold em in my local poker room and do think the hands are a bit off so to say but i cant say for sure that i would say the post Ive recently made does pertain. it just sounds like it to me.
Quote: joek3533So I used to really like Ultimate Texas Holdem until one day ...
Hmm... Places I play UTH generally use a shuffle machine like that used at a poker table. It delivers a full deck to the Dealer. Usually the Dealer cuts the cards before starting the hand. That fixes any problem with the shuffle machine shafting the players.
I have never found a casino that would allow me to play two hands, even if I was the only player at the table. That would be like one player getting to see another player's cards before deciding how to bet.
Does every casino where you play use a shuffle machine that spits out 2-card hands, one hand at a time? Where do you play?
Quote: heatmapi have recently just released my take on the situation about blackjack and the md3 shuffle master machines. its called "The parity problem" and it sounds like it might pertain to what is happening with the hold em poker hands.
In my opinion, to make a long story short, you arent necessarily playing the game you think you are playing, but a functionally similar game that plays like holdem, or in my case, blackjack, but I do play hold em in my local poker room and do think the hands are a bit off so to say but i cant say for sure that i would say the post Ive recently made does pertain. it just sounds like it to me.
I'm not sure if I should say lol or huh?
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I'm not sure if I should say lol or huh?
ZCore13
the poll allows you to vote for one of those choices ;-) its like im in your mind already
So why wouldn't you keep this a secret? You and a buddy go sit 1st and 3rd base... when the pit marks "2 players" and leaves, you go to 2 hands... then have your buddy bet the table max and make money hand over fist???Quote: joek3533...Another time whenever the pit boss wasn't around I would play 2 hands and low and behold the person at 3rd base was now getting the dealers cards and were cleaning up.
Wondering what everyone else's opinion on this is?
lol?
Quote: Zcore13You are getting wrong info.
The shuffle machine can sort cards back into new deck order. It can't deal certain cards to certain positions.
ZCore13
See I heard the shuffle master can sort cards into new deck order, since it can do that OF COURSE it can deal cards into any position it wants, I recently saw 7 players at the table and the 8th set of 2 cards were to the dealer, pocket Kings, I firmly believed shufflemaster is rigged.
Quote: joek3533See I heard the shuffle master can sort cards into new deck order, since it can do that OF COURSE it can deal cards into any position it wants, I recently saw 7 players at the table and the 8th set of 2 cards were to the dealer, pocket Kings, I firmly believed shufflemaster is rigged.
You believe wrong.
ZCore13
Why in the world would DEALERS out of all people, SEVERAL tell me there is no way they'd play the game because the machine is rigged?
Quote: joek3533See I heard the shuffle master can sort cards into new deck order, since it can do that OF COURSE it can deal cards into any position it wants, I recently saw 7 players at the table and the 8th set of 2 cards were to the dealer, pocket Kings, I firmly believed shufflemaster is rigged.
I had a similarly odd experience. One time I was playing blackjack and I had 20, the dealer had 21. Next hand I get dealt 19, the dealer... had 20
Rigged beyond belief.
Quote: joek3533I could see if you were a dealer or pit boss being so confident. I actually don't even think there is anything wrong with the shufflemaster rigging the cards either, slot machines are rigged to only pay out X% why can't Ultimate as well, I have no problem with it as long as they say so, but I don't like thinking that if we could cut the deck we have a 49% chance but without cutting the deck a 15% chance.
Why in the world would DEALERS out of all people, SEVERAL tell me there is no way they'd play the game because the machine is rigged?
Dealers aren't required to understand the game they're playing, the odds, or anything other than the mechanics of how the casino wants the game dealt. Most of them don't understand most of what they're dealing. Especially carnival card games, because they rotate through so many of them.
They ARE required to listen to what's being said, and the streaks they see happen, from their players. So they build up ideas, get positive reinforcement from hearing gripes and theories, and getting tipped for big wins on sidebets, to where they give really bad advice sometimes.
Dealers will insist that a sidebets is "where you make your money ". Dealers will laugh at you if you bet a JToffsuit or K5o 4x, or proper kicker strategy.
Dealers commonly miss flushes and straights in their own or player's hands, forget the value of their hand, pay the ante when they don't qualify, lots of other mistakes. Can't tell you how often I make them back up and pay a bonus bet or the whole thing when they're moving fast and don't see straights and flushes in someone's 7 card hand. But it's a lot.
It's much more valuable for you to look at WoO, Discount Gaming, or even some players around you who seem to be grinding a win, than to listen to a dealer.
And in saying all this, I don't mean to dump on dealers. They're simply not required to understand the math, so most of them don't. I would guess 1 in 10 at best understands optimal play on the game they're dealing. I except those dealing craps or roulette, because those require advanced dealer skills, and I would guess a greater percentage of dealers understand the best bets.
That's happened to me too. One time I was playing and had two face cards and the dealer had a 5. He drew a 6 and a face card for 21. Couldn't believe it. Didn't find out what model of Shuffle master it was. He just took my chips as though nothing had happened! Fortunately it was only a £5 wager.Quote: michael99000I had a similarly odd experience. One time I was playing blackjack and I had 20, the dealer had 21. Next hand I get dealt 19, the dealer... had 20
Rigged beyond belief.
They must think we're stupid!
Because dealers are CLUELESS 99.99% of time about the games they deal. I know TONS of dealers that ALL play UTH... does that mean it must secretly be a really good game to play??? Driving to wild conclusions based on a few people, dealers or not, is just silly. It's not statistical research and holds no weight, thus shouldn't even be considered.Quote: joek3533...Why in the world would DEALERS out of all people, SEVERAL tell me there is no way they'd play the game because the machine is rigged?
Ask those same dealers what the house edge of the game is. Guaranteed none of them know the exact house edge.
Ask those same dealers the element of risk on the game, and none of them will know that.
Ask the dealers for BASIC STRATEGY of the game, and I'll be they ALL don't know it... but yeah, take their word on any game.
But ... IF the shufflemaster can reshuffle the deck from Ace to King suited and the sensors can see and do that why do you guys think that they can't spit them out in any order they prefer as well? (Why not let us cut the deck?) If a slot machine can be set up to pay out x% why not a shufflemaster machine set up to pay out x%? State Casino Regulations? I play at Indian Casino's a lot to where they are probably Indian regulated and can do what they want more so than State regulated.
So I feel that instead of 49/51 odds if we were able to cut the deck, at the Indian Casino it is more like 33/67 odds.
The inverse of x% is the house edge.Quote: joek3533... slot machines are rigged to only pay out X% ...
You’re confusing “rigged” with “variance.”
The only thing I wish that the dealer could do is to scramble the cards, also know as give them a wash like a real poker dealer dealing a live game can do. However the dealer can give one rif of the cards, and I notice that many do once they get all of the cards.
By the way, I made my first straight flush with a Q-8 off suit last night at the Nugget. No trip bet as I never play it, but I made my max 4 times bet and got paid 50:1 off $10. I have yet to see any player play or at least apply the perfect strategy, besides myself of course.
Another observation, I go to Indian Casino's out by Palm Springs CA and they have traditional rules like Vegas, progressive, etc.
But ... there a few that have progressive (not nearly as large) to where you can win the progressive (straight flush, royal flush) to where it doesn't have to be on the flop, it can be all 7 cards to me seems like (even though less jackpot) MUCH better odds for the player to hit one of these big hands.
What are all of your thoughts?
Quote: joek3533Okay, I'll give in that dealers are stupid, I get that.
But ... IF the shufflemaster can reshuffle the deck from Ace to King suited and the sensors can see and do that why do you guys think that they can't spit them out in any order they prefer as well? (Why not let us cut the deck?) If a slot machine can be set up to pay out x% why not a shufflemaster machine set up to pay out x%? State Casino Regulations? I play at Indian Casino's a lot to where they are probably Indian regulated and can do what they want more so than State regulated.
So I feel that instead of 49/51 odds if we were able to cut the deck, at the Indian Casino it is more like 33/67 odds.
Is it POSSIBLE for a shuffler to have software that deals specific cards? Absolutely. In fact, it happens at hundreds or more duplicate bridge clubs everywhere all the time. There is a network, the hands are loaded into the machines' memories via the national organization (ACBL), and a thousand people play exactly the same boards that have been spit out from the shuffler.
Is it happening in casino games? No. They are programmed, independently verified as random in dealing mode, and the guts sealed before delivery.
The sort feature ONLY can sort into card order. To do that requires an obvious key turn on the machine to the SORT feature; it can't be accessed in normal play. The machine won't deal when it's sorting - it just spits out a whole deck. The key is not left in the machine - it's held in the pit.
Quote: joek3533I still believe that if the ShuffleMaster can shuffle in suited order it can drop cards where it wants them, this is what Dealers have told me and other players as well.
Another observation, I go to Indian Casino's out by Palm Springs CA and they have traditional rules like Vegas, progressive, etc.
But ... there a few that have progressive (not nearly as large) to where you can win the progressive (straight flush, royal flush) to where it doesn't have to be on the flop, it can be all 7 cards to me seems like (even though less jackpot) MUCH better odds for the player to hit one of these big hands.
What are all of your thoughts?
Saying that because a shuffler can sort cards, it must be dealing cards in a special order to the table is like saying because you can turn your headlights on your car on, you must be able to shoot rockets out the front by turning a knob. If something is not made to perform a task, it can't fo it. The shufflers on UTH cant deal cards where it wants them.
And in general, dealers have no clue about how a games math is set up, the odds of winning, how to play optimally or anything else except how to deal the game. Next time you play ask the different dealers things like how often does the dealer not qualify? What's the house edge on the main game and side bet? What are the hands that should be bet 4x pre-flop? I doubt you will get one dealer that will know even one of those answers.
ZCore13
Quote: beachbumbabsIs it POSSIBLE for a shuffler to have software that deals specific cards? Absolutely. In fact, it happens at hundreds or more duplicate bridge clubs everywhere all the time. There is a network, the hands are loaded into the machines' memories via the national organization (ACBL), and a thousand people play exactly the same boards that have been spit out from the shuffler.
Is it happening in casino games? No. They are programmed, independently verified as random in dealing mode, and the guts sealed before delivery.
The sort feature ONLY can sort into card order. To do that requires an obvious key turn on the machine to the SORT feature; it can't be accessed in normal play. The machine won't deal when it's sorting - it just spits out a whole deck. The key is not left in the machine - it's held in the pit.
you might be able to clarify something for me, but from everything ive read, its up to the casino in order to SEED their RNG algorithms themselves, be it by a random process etc, but in the same documentation, it also read that they dont need to actually seed the algorithms at all in the first place, they just have to make sure when multiple games of the same type are connected to the network, that the seeds dont sync up. As in its possible to sync up the RNG results like you said, but by "accident". Or lack of caring in general they dont seed just because they think they dont need to for some reason. Ive also read within certain documents that the minimum bet amount is used as a seeding technique.
If you really distrust the casino, why are you there?
I seriously doubt that the table minimum is use as the RNG seed. Maybe as PART of the seed.Quote: heatmap... the minimum bet amount is used as a seeding technique.
In fact, if the RNG does need to be manually seeded, I would expect (hope?) that they make it complex, but so simple, that the person seeding it doesn't even know they are seeding it.
What I mean is, if I was programming it, I would require all of the following info: Date, Time, Table Number, Floor Person ID, Dealer ID, Minimum and Maximum bet size and number of players seated. Whoever was entering it would think that it's merely a record keeping requirement.
Let the software combine those digits and you end up with a seed that's at least 32 digits long.
Wanna make the seed even longer and more random? Add the last few roulette results - but do this behind the scenes, not as a user input.
I've asked a poker dealer to put in a new set up without shuffling into the machine as I wanted to see how well it shuffled. From a new set up, there were some batches of suits but overall it was pretty much shuffled. But a new set up is never placed into the machine in order.
Quote: DJTeddyBearIt astonishes me how often I hear these types of comments. People who do not trust the randomness of the shuffler, or even the fairness of the dice or roulette wheel or whatever. And yet, those people are in the casino constantly.
If you really distrust the casino, why are you there?
I seriously doubt that the table minimum is use as the RNG seed. Maybe as PART of the seed.
In fact, if the RNG does need to be manually seeded, I would expect (hope?) that they make it complex, but so simple, that the person seeding it doesn't even know they are seeding it.
What I mean is, if I was programming it, I would require all of the following info: Date, Time, Table Number, Floor Person ID, Dealer ID, Minimum and Maximum bet size and number of players seated. Whoever was entering it would think that it's merely a record keeping requirement.
Let the software combine those digits and you end up with a seed that's at least 32 digits long.
Wanna make the seed even longer and more random? Add the last few roulette results - but do this behind the scenes, not as a user input.
i do trust casinos that they will make games as fair as they can. i was just wondering if the "not needing to seed" thing is true or if anyone has ever heard of that. I got the "minimum" betting seed from a document provided by shuffle master to a specific gaming control board about a specific game.
and from what i understand about a 32 bit seed is that there is not enough entropy in that and i think its at the least 44 bits of entropy in order to obtain the amount of combinations produced by the RNG but i might be low on that 44 bits as well.
The table minimum has nothing to do with the shuffler. There is no option to input the table minimum and the machine is not connected to anything that would tell it what the minimum is.
ZCore13
Quote: VegasriderThat's why WE have the Nevada Gaming Commision. If you accuse a casuno of cheating you are making a very serious claim that will either get you banned or the casino receive a hefty fine if your accusation holds up.
i understand that, and i also understand that most of the stories ive read about casino cheating involves not the entire casino, but by people who are or have access to things that allow the games to become unfair or skewed toward the cheating parties. as in its mostly employees from within the casinos who work for themselves and thats unfair.
edit: and if youve read into some of the stuff ive posted, ive already been there and done that. ive accused my casino of cheating a total of 3 times. although i never made an issue, or legal complaint, i have been and am very familiar with my gaming control board and im still allowed in my casino. as a matter of fact, the only time ive ever seen anyone kicked out is for fighting or arguing aggressively with the pit managers about money, and i have also seen a girl get backed off of a roulette table for being too drunk.
Quote: VegasriderThat's why WE have the Nevada Gaming Commision. If you accuse a casuno of cheating you are making a very serious claim that will either get you banned or the casino receive a hefty fine if your accusation holds up.
Whoa, I never said the machines spitting cards out to where it wants is cheating (just not admitting it is not the 51/49 split players think it is, is wrong in my opinion, like false advertising, or not advertising that it isn't what people think it is) ... just like a slot machine knowing what reels will land where is not cheating, on a slot if the casino pays out 94% they are guaranteed 6% every time which is okay by Nevada Gaming Commission ... so why wouldn't the Nevada gaming commission be okay with instead of the house advantage being 51% on Ultimate have it be 57%? that would be the same difference in my opinion ... and also are the Indian casinos even regulated by the state or regulated by themselves to where they could have it be 67% house advantage?
Quote: joek3533Whoa, I never said the machines spitting cards out to where it wants is cheating (just not admitting it is not the 51/49 split players think it is, is wrong in my opinion, like false advertising, or not advertising that it isn't what people think it is) ... just like a slot machine knowing what reels will land where is not cheating, on a slot if the casino pays out 94% they are guaranteed 6% every time which is okay by Nevada Gaming Commission ... so why wouldn't the Nevada gaming commission be okay with instead of the house advantage being 51% on Ultimate have it be 57%? that would be the same difference in my opinion ... and also are the Indian casinos even regulated by the state or regulated by themselves to where they could have it be 67% house advantage?
Do you not have any idea what the house advantage means or how it can be adjusted without trying to make shufflers do things they can't do?
ZCore13
Quote: joek3533Not sure why you think a ShuffleMaster machine which allegedly can sense what suited card is where to where it can shuffle them back suited A-K but not be able to sense what suited card is where to spit out where it wants to be dealt ... with 2018 computer technology I think it is very feasible to have an algorithm do this (like a video poker game does) and have it not be considered cheating (at least at a non regulated Indian casino).
So which casino that you've been to or read these things about is non-regulated?
ZCore13
Quote: heatmapive accused my casino of cheating a total of 3 times.
Im still allowed in my casino.
I guess you’re like me , I generally wait until my casino has cheated me 7 or 8 times before I stop going back
Quote: joek3533I see you say that you are an employee of a casino so you would know better than me, I apologize for my ignorance since I do not work for a casino. I heard Indian casinos regulate themselves and aren't state regulated (in Cali) do you know if indian casinos are regulated as strictly as non indian casinos?
California casinos are definitely regulated. I can't speak how it compares to Nevada. I've worked in two Tribal casinos in Arizona and both are tighter on regulations than Nevada. One of the Casino made sure every regulation was to a higher standard than what minimums require. Every form numbered and accounted for. Every card checked and accounted for by two table games people (3 for poker) on introduction to play and by two table games people and then security after removal. Every electronic component tested and approved by GLI to make sure they work exactly as described. Every memory card, stick, chip, board shipped separately from the device and scanned by a computer to make sure there were no changes to the code after leaving the factory. Every shuffler services by shufflemaster once a week. Surveillance notified every time a shuffler is replaced on a game. Surveillance cameras on every shuffler while in play and in storage.
Most of these standards are the same at the second casino, although a couple not quite as tough.
ZCore13
Quote: joek3533Okay, so let's say any and all casino's are highly regulated ... if video poker has x amount of losers pre determined and x amount of winners predetermined and it passes state and/or indian regulation then why couldn't ultimate have x amount of losers pre determined and x amount of winners predetermined? It wouldn't be cheating, it is just saying the casino is allowed to have a 67% advantage instead of 51% advantage and it would be just fine by the regulators.
Video poker does not pre-determine wins and losses. Video poker uses math to produce pay tables that pay you less than what the true odds are for an occurance to happen. Every card is random, but because the breakdown of how many of each card and suit there are out of 52, it can be determined how often, in the long run, every possible event should happen.
Look at the different pay tables at Wizard of Odds Video Poker Odds Page. The only thing that changes are the payouts for each hand. The probabilities never change.
ZCore13
