manydrums
manydrums
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May 18th, 2018 at 12:31:20 PM permalink
I know that slot machines must meet an RTP, and that both slots and video poker machines run on the same type of random number generator. But does a video poker machine have an RTP that must be met? My reason for asking... if a video poker machine is producing a lot more losses than wins, will the RNG eventually kick in to produce a higher win to make up for it, the same way slot machines do (over a very long period of time)?
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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May 18th, 2018 at 12:38:50 PM permalink
NO, and neither does a slot.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
BleedingChipsSlowly
BleedingChipsSlowly
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May 18th, 2018 at 12:42:38 PM permalink
If the machine class is lottery style there will be winning “tickets” left, more than usual if there has been a run of loses. But, if you are playing a machine with random results via a random number generator (RNG) then no. Imagining the machine is “due” is a big mistake. Search on Gambler’s Falacy for a detailed explanation.
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ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
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May 18th, 2018 at 2:57:41 PM permalink
Quote: manydrums

I know that slot machines must meet an RTP

Not a fixed RTP - at least, not in Nevada - but a "theoretical" minimum payout of 75%.

Quote: Nevada Gaming Regulation 14.010(1)

All gaming devices submitted for approval must theoretically pay out a mathematically demonstrable percentage of all amounts wagered, which must not be less than 75 percent for each wager available for play on the device.

This regulation applies to VP as well as to slot machines.
ECoaster
ECoaster
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May 18th, 2018 at 3:08:03 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Not a fixed RTP - at least, not in Nevada - but a "theoretical" minimum payout of 75%.

Quote: Nevada Gaming Regulation 14.010(1)

All gaming devices submitted for approval must theoretically pay out a mathematically demonstrable percentage of all amounts wagered, which must not be less than 75 percent for each wager available for play on the device.

This regulation applies to VP as well as to slot machines.



I wonder how this is defined for VP... Does it assume any player competency?

I can imagine playing a VP machine and deliberately trying to create losing hands that that will result a payout of less than 75%, but of course a non-lottery VP machine isn't going to behave any differently because of it.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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May 18th, 2018 at 9:19:33 PM permalink
Quote: ECoaster

I wonder how this is defined for VP... Does it assume any player competency?

I can imagine playing a VP machine and deliberately trying to create losing hands that that will result a payout of less than 75%, but of course a non-lottery VP machine isn't going to behave any differently because of it.

Even if a player DID deliberately try to lose, such action wouldn’t move the needle much - unless it was a brand new machine with no other history, and a very determined loser.
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AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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May 19th, 2018 at 12:32:27 AM permalink
Quote: ECoaster

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Not a fixed RTP - at least, not in Nevada - but a "theoretical" minimum payout of 75%.

Quote: Nevada Gaming Regulation 14.010(1)

All gaming devices submitted for approval must theoretically pay out a mathematically demonstrable percentage of all amounts wagered, which must not be less than 75 percent for each wager available for play on the device.

This regulation applies to VP as well as to slot machines.



I wonder how this is defined for VP... Does it assume any player competency?

I can imagine playing a VP machine and deliberately trying to create losing hands that that will result a payout of less than 75%, but of course a non-lottery VP machine isn't going to behave any differently because of it.

I was told that it was based on how an average group of players would play. I seem to remember being told they used test groups. Along with the min theoretical payback of 75%, an avrage group of people would need to be able to achieve at least 75% as well. From my understanding, they could not have a game that is so complicated an avrage group wouldn't be able to obtain at least 75%, no matter how high the theoretical payback is. I don't know how skill gaming addresses all this.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
rsactuary
rsactuary
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May 19th, 2018 at 4:34:20 AM permalink
Quote: ECoaster

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Not a fixed RTP - at least, not in Nevada - but a "theoretical" minimum payout of 75%.

Quote: Nevada Gaming Regulation 14.010(1)

All gaming devices submitted for approval must theoretically pay out a mathematically demonstrable percentage of all amounts wagered, which must not be less than 75 percent for each wager available for play on the device.

This regulation applies to VP as well as to slot machines.



I wonder how this is defined for VP... Does it assume any player competency?

I can imagine playing a VP machine and deliberately trying to create losing hands that that will result a payout of less than 75%, but of course a non-lottery VP machine isn't going to behave any differently because of it.



The law states that the manufacturer can assume that the player always acts in his/her best interest... meaning that they play perfectly.
manydrums
manydrums
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May 19th, 2018 at 6:28:01 AM permalink
Thank you all for your replies. That's exactly what I thought. I came across a so-called "video poker cheat" recently that said, by purposely losing many times, one can, eventually, force a machine to produce the Royal Straight Flush. The concept applied to online video poker, in particular. My aim was to debunk the notion, but that got me wondering how and if RTPs even played a role in VP. Thank you again!
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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May 19th, 2018 at 9:37:50 AM permalink
Quote: rsactuary

Quote: ECoaster

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Not a fixed RTP - at least, not in Nevada - but a "theoretical" minimum payout of 75%.

Quote: Nevada Gaming Regulation 14.010(1)

All gaming devices submitted for approval must theoretically pay out a mathematically demonstrable percentage of all amounts wagered, which must not be less than 75 percent for each wager available for play on the device.

This regulation applies to VP as well as to slot machines.



I wonder how this is defined for VP... Does it assume any player competency?

I can imagine playing a VP machine and deliberately trying to create losing hands that that will result a payout of less than 75%, but of course a non-lottery VP machine isn't going to behave any differently because of it.



The law states that the manufacturer can assume that the player always acts in his/her best interest... meaning that they play perfectly.

How does always acting in their best interest = that they play perfectly? This would suggest they could make a 75% game that was so complicated that almost no one could achieve 75%. I interpret it as... the manufacturer can assume people won't purposely try to lose or be complete idiots.

I know its probably a moot point since they want people to keep playing and not actully feel like they are being raped.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

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