Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
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April 5th, 2012 at 5:48:15 PM permalink
Discussed setting up a Poker League with my regular card playing buddies, but quickly realized that the model we were considering would lock us into a six month - 1 year competition that didn't allow any flexibility for new players to join. I am confident this problem has been addressed by established leagues. If you are part of a successful league, can you please outline the basic operation and scoring, and especially note how new players who would like to participate after the league kicks off, are handled? Thanks!
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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April 5th, 2012 at 8:46:13 PM permalink
I am a dealer in World Free Poker. It's something of a misnomer, since it's only in northern New Jersey.

Anyway, when talking to potential new players, I describe it this way:

We play at 13 venues. Some venues have games more than once each week. Every weeknight at 7:00, Saturday afternoons, and Sundays both in the afternoon and evening. Currently, its a total of 20 events per week.

Each event consists of 3 games. The blind structure is designed so the first and second game lass about 90 minutes each, and the third game is a little shorter. This generally depends upon the venue and whether they close at the time we're supposed to be done or not.

Unlike sports leagues that get upset when you sign up and then don't play, there is never a requirement to play any specific number of games, days, or whatever. Just show up and play, any time you like.

If you play, and make it to a final table, you gain points based upon your position when you bust out. The number of points given out for any game depends upon the starting number of tables.

You can track your points on the website.

At the end of the season, the top point getters are invited to a final tourney, where the winner of that gets sent to A.C. with a buy-in to the big game in a WSOP or WPT event.

Obviously, the more you play, the better your chances of making it to the finals. And there are guys that play 8 times a week.

If you win just one time, you're invited to a wildcard game a week or so before the big finals. A percentage of the wildcard players make it to the finals.

We DID have one player join the league just a couple weeks before the end of a season, win a game, make it thru the wildcard, and make it all the way to the final table of the finals. He didn't win, but he proved that it's possible.

The venues are bars / pubs / restaurants. Anything with space that serves food and booze at reasonable prices. Generally, bars use their entertainment budget and figure it's better than karaoke or something like that on their off-nights.

We encourage the players to submit their receipts. Their bar tab totals are tracked separately, and periodically there is a bar tab tourney with a small prize.

This is key. Since the venues pay the league a percentage of the player's purchases, we need to encourage higher tabs, and submission of the receipt so we can track it.


I hope this helps.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
buzzpaff
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April 5th, 2012 at 8:52:42 PM permalink
What would you rate the skill level of the average player? Sounds a lot like some pool league, where nobody can play al ittle except 2 or 3 guys.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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April 5th, 2012 at 9:16:40 PM permalink
There are three poker leagues in my area.

My league uses a dedicated dealer at each table. The dealers do not deal themselves in, nor do they get paid, except by player tips. Players tip the dealers what they can afford, usually $2 to $5, at the start of the game, and again at final table.

The reason I prefer playing in the league with the dealers is simple. It's run more professionally. The dealers are trained by the league's manager - a former poker room dealer. The dealers keep the game focused and on track. As a result, the level of play is a bit more challenging.

The other two leagues do not use dealers. The deal rotates around like a home game. And those leagues tend to be more of a social event with people who are clueless. I often say that in those leagues, some people, if you put a deck of cards in front of them, they don't know if they are supposed to cut, deal, shuffle or shit.

I've played in all three leagues. Although it costs more to play where you need to tip the dealers, but I stopped playing in the other leagues about 3 years ago, and have started to switch to becoming a dealer in my league. I just love the professional manner in which the games are run.

Also, there are the multiple ways to win something. In the other two leagues, the only way to win is to play a lot and gather points.


There are players of all levels at all the leagues. And the better players will critique and advise the weaker players.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
buzzpaff
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April 5th, 2012 at 9:25:32 PM permalink
Nothing beat a well run tournament. Some of the best structures and prize structures were in illegal parlors.
And suspected cheaters were handled by the dealers. And Ido mean handled.
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
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April 5th, 2012 at 11:50:03 PM permalink
Thanks DJ! I appreciate the helpful input.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
WizardofEngland
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April 6th, 2012 at 4:27:12 AM permalink
I was the owner of a league in the UK. I ran up to 20 venues at one point, and had a player pool of around 400.

My first piece of advice; Dont do it!

It was very hard work, very unsocial hours, and dealing with people who have consumed aclohol is a very fine art. The rewards are also very poor, unless you live and breathe poker and have nothing better to do.

It all went wrong for me, when we grew too large for just me to manage it. I sold 40% to an Angel investor, who put enough money in to buy custom printed ceramic chips, £1,000 worth of Copag cards, a company van a new website etc. Then other people wanted in, and I buckled to the pressure from the Angel, despite my gut telling me it was a bad move. Before I knew it, I had 25% of my business and 5 people who didnt want to do much of the leg work. None of them played good poker, and none of them understood rules or format.

We got into a arguement about fuel expenses, and I throw in the towel, cashed out my 25% for a very small amount of money and left them to it. I had to hold the website and van to ransom, otherwise I would of got nothing. A year later the business is bankrupt and everyone is out of pocket. I lost a few friends, and got very angry at people who got greedy.

If I could go back, I would be far more forceful after the first investor. But I would not touch it with a barge pole (a uk saying?) even knowing what I know now. I can provide you with an excellent website template for a very small fee if your interested though ;-)
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
DJTeddyBear
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April 6th, 2012 at 5:23:10 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Thanks DJ! I appreciate the helpful input.


Glad to be of help. Now just tell me that you're in a completely different area. I'd hate to think I gave away our entire business plan to our competition. LOL

Although, in all seriousness, much of what I told you can be figured out by any intelligent person who plays in our league.


The very first thing you should do is to find out if it's legal in your area. I recently recommended a venue that showed interest, but our manager shot it down immediately. It's just over the state line. In New York, it's illegal to have an open deck of cards in a bar. The bar could lose their liquor license.

On that note, if you DO run a game, you have to make sure that the players who are knocked out don't start a little cash game on the side.

We even have a rule where you can't invite players to a home game while at our games. Of course we do the wink wink thing and tell them to simply become friends first, and invite people by email and text, whatever. Just don't talk about it at the league game.



Quote: WizardofEngland

... and dealing with people who have consumed aclohol is a very fine art.

I'd say most of Wiz of E's problems were being screwed over by "partners", but, as a former bar/nightclub DJ and bouncer, I cannot agree more with the above statement.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
WizardofEngland
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April 6th, 2012 at 7:07:57 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

I'd say most of Wiz of E's problems were being screwed over by "partners", but, as a former bar/nightclub DJ and bouncer, I cannot agree more with the above statement.



Your totally right, but if you think its a good money maker your in for a shock. I should of been more clued up when it came to growth, but you live and learn. I know for a fact that the people who screwed me over are currently in debt for tens of thousands of pounds, through their lack of management, and I find it quite humbling to be honest. Im probably still bitter deep down, seeing something that I worked 15 hours a day 7 days a week making ruined by a bunch of knobheads. My point is, its bloody hard work for little reward.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
slyther
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April 6th, 2012 at 9:03:17 AM permalink
The league I run with my buddies wouldn't meet your requirements of allowing new people to join.

However there have been a few different 'public' bar leagues in my area. I used to participate in one that went like this:

You would sign up with the league and be issued an ID card. The tournaments were held at various bars, usually one every weeknight at a different location. Everyone who wanted to play would present their ID card, have the number recorded, and be issued a chip stack. The structures were incredibly fast, as they would run 2 tournaments per night and average around 40 players or so. The buy-in was free.

You would get a minimal number of points for playing (after all that's what the bar is paying the poker league for), then get points for finishing position at the final table.

At the end of the designated 'season', the top 100 players would be invited to play in the finals. The winner of that would get a WSOP ME freeroll or something similar.

As has been mentioned above, you have to really like playing bar poker. Since points were awarded for attendance you had to play constantly in order to have enough to make the finals.

I played it for 1 season then decided it wasn't for me.
buzzpaff
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April 6th, 2012 at 10:08:13 AM permalink
" My point is, its bloody hard work for little reward." That goes for dealing too.
I watch the Shark here in the colonies. Think England has a show called Dragon's Den ?
There is a reason that quite often the money men insist on 51% of any venture.
It sure as hell ain't about the extra 1% financially.
It's about being the ultimate decision maker.
W of E, I feel your pain .
or as us punter's here say " No good deed goes unpunished "
WizardofEngland
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April 6th, 2012 at 11:49:06 AM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

" My point is, its bloody hard work for little reward." That goes for dealing too.
I watch the Shark here in the colonies. Think England has a show called Dragon's Den ?
There is a reason that quite often the money men insist on 51% of any venture.
It sure as hell ain't about the extra 1% financially.
It's about being the ultimate decision maker.
W of E, I feel your pain .
or as us punter's here say " No good deed goes unpunished "



Dragons Den (UK) is the original ;-)

For what its worth, 51% means nothing, I think its 76% to have full control, or something like that (at least here anyway). And the % was not that important, I wanted the first investor at all costs, he suggested just buying 40% as it keeps my interest. Which made sense. I would took him at 60%, but I made almost nothing after I got the investor onboard. It stopped being about the poker, and started being about everything else, the marketing, the exposure, the brand the bloody company t-shirts.

Id love to own my own card room, or run a poker room in a casino, here its done so poorly by nearly all casinos. Id run the best room, and make more money than any of them. So tournies here are £30 + £8 rake, then £5 staff bonus for double chips. Its a joke really £30 + £13 is nearly 50% rake. Its so wrong, on so many levels.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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April 6th, 2012 at 12:12:44 PM permalink
The best run tournaments and best games I ever played in were illegal poker rooms. Friendly staff, knowledgeable dealers.
Tournaments paid 100% of the entry fees and structures were slow enough that skill was paramount. Of course as players were
eliminated, cash games were open. Usually started with 10 table tournament, rebuy at the break if still alive, and by time
final table started, 8 or 9 of the other tables had cash games going.
On holidays, like Christmasmas and Easter, entry fee was a brand new toy. Owner put up the cash, toys were donated to charity.

I believe Switch and Mr. Casino Games may have run their own poker room at one time. They will correct me if i am wrong.
I know both are world class hold'em poker players.

My gripe is these on-line poker rooms, who catch a player cheating and winning a major tournament, then 3 years later
hire him to pimp for them. WTF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WizardofEngland
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April 6th, 2012 at 1:18:10 PM permalink
I see it like this, run a decent poker tourney with a deep and slow structure with a standard 10% rake. This would possibly result in a small loss for the room, or maybe break even. Its then the cardroom managers job to convert these players in cash game players, which is where the money is made. Think of it like a poker eco-system.

From a recreational point of view, I would say poker players favour a freezeout tourney over a cash game at a rate of 2-1 or 3-1. So they should be catered for. Pros or semi pros are a different animal, and most favour cash games.

Im not a cash game player per se, but if I had exclusively played cash on my last visit to vegas, I would of come home a winner. The tourneys were highly raked, and the trend seems to be 'get em in, get em out'. Which put me off wanting to play too many.

On a side note, ground is being made to get on-line poker back to the US, and predictions are late 2013... We shall see.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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April 6th, 2012 at 1:27:17 PM permalink
Indeed, we shall see. The US currently has the best government can buy. Be interesting to see if a B&M will be needed to
operate an on-line poker room, what the government rake will be, who will regulate, etc.

In illegal games, there is almost always a high premium on honesty, despite a public perspective that is otherwise, As least here
in the states, how about across the pond ??
WizardofEngland
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April 6th, 2012 at 1:48:57 PM permalink
Id like to think I would know about illegal poker. But the truth is, it just doesnt happen here. You can play in your house with friends or friends of friends for ANY stakes (£50,000,000 if you really wanted) and its not illegal. You cant rake it, and you cant charge entry fee, or charge for food/drink etc. But otherwise its all legal. If you wanted to make a 'donation' to the host thats fine, but it must be optional.

Every once in a while a rival venue would be offering illegal league poker, but we got them dealt with very swiftly. I had a direct contact at the gambling commission and they dont mess about. Casinos and poker rooms pay very high fees to host no limit poker, and they deserve that right.

I think the law works quite well here, they dont tax gambling, and it has very little burden on the state as a result, the casinos pay fees, as do bookmakers etc. It also means I pay no tax on winnings in Vegas, so I always suggest a very uneven chop when Im in the money, like $20,000 for me $1,000 for the other 3, and i'll meet you at the bar ;-) "dealer, I will need a W8-BEN please"
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
DJTeddyBear
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April 6th, 2012 at 1:56:29 PM permalink
Interesting.

The one time I was involved in a chop, the casino insisted we "finish the game and determine places." I.E. We all went all-in, and then everyone except the leader mucked.

We were then awarded prize money and W2-Gs according to how we finished. We then split the money afterwards.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
WizardofEngland
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April 6th, 2012 at 2:50:30 PM permalink
You can ask for the prize pool to be re-distributed if all agree.

So if you were 4 handed, and you wanted to change it to a winner takes all, and all 4 agree the casino will do it.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
buzzpaff
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April 6th, 2012 at 4:17:20 PM permalink
" the casinos pay fees, as do bookmakers etc. " Always never understood why it was illegal for the guy in the last booth at the drugstore, directly across the street from Pimlico Race track, to accept bets on the races. That was in 1957 and it is still illegal
today.
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