Cooperation Game II
Poll
 | 23 votes (69.69%) | ||
| | 3 votes (9.09%) | ||
| | 4 votes (12.12%) | ||
| | 1 vote (3.03%) | ||
| | 3 votes (9.09%) | ||
| | 2 votes (6.06%) | ||
| | 1 vote (3.03%) | ||
| | 1 vote (3.03%) | ||
| No votes (0%) | |||
| | 4 votes (12.12%) |
33 members have voted
Quote: troopscotteveryone needs to steal every round until the end. It is the non poolers and side poolers who have competing interests to steal regardless. If you knuckleheads keep voting share and they keep stealing they are boosting their pool (side poolers) or non poolers total take home.
I’m a side pooler, can you remind me how I voted last round, please?
Secondly, in your post that said you tried to orchestrate an all-steal, but someone was determined to share no matter what, who might you have been referring to?
Also, who openly advocated and made an argument that everyone should just share in the previous round? Did you send out any PM’s trying to convince everyone to share as you did to convince everyone to steal? (By your own admission)
Honestly, I’m starting to think all of this jive you’re talking is so that you can justify stealing.
Quote:In an effort to minimize their take and sine the poolers pool is already over $100 I think all leaders should vote steal and cause the side poolers and non poolers to vote share to get a small scrap from their members on steal teams or nothing and keep their pools and take home to a minimum.
The only way to share is if all 7 leaders are main poolers which I have not seen yet
Why? You do realize had all 33 players agreed to join the pool there would be no reason for Wizard to continue the game, right?
Think about it for a second: If it was everyone v. the Wizard (as all would be in one pool) then making the optimal play (which is literally ANY play except all steal) would be easy and there’d be no reason for Wizard to add rounds or increase prizes.
Not at all.Quote: AxelWolfYou know GD well that 3 people on your team have a propensity to steal. Too bad you can't think for yourself.
I could just go ahead and just cast what I choose as the team vote, but that wouldn't be very honorable of me if I were to just unilaterally vote steal to save myself $50. And if there really is a propensity on my team to vote steal and I defied that, I wouldn't feel too honorable then, either. I don't feel weak or wrong in seeking the input of my team, nor in defying them if I see fit.
Quote: AxelWolf
prozema: Not sure what the majority of your team will suggest(it looks sketchy), I suggest you tell them to FK off and just do the right thing. There's no real value in voting with your teams steal wishes just because they are your current team since they are not really your team and won't be in the future.
Funny, I've already had one person tell me to go F myself and they weren't on my team. Lol!
I believe my entire team is in the sharing pool, so it is in our best interest to maximize return. Interesting enough, my team is 24% of the pooling members this round. All this assumes ODs table is accurate.
I'd be happy to vote share if I believed everyone else would do the same especially with the offer OD made, but I disagree that this is a good group of captians.
With the exception of OD, everyone else has confirmed they are not in the big pool or have not committed one way or another.
I still like your idea of excluding those that have not committed from the pool. It would narrow their options and assist in future decision making.
Anyway, I did ping my team for feedback and thoughts, but I also made it clear my team is not a democracy.
Quote: Mission146I’m a side pooler, can you remind me how I voted last round, please?
Secondly, in your post that said you tried to orchestrate an all-steal, but someone was determined to share no matter what, who might you have been referring to?
Also, who openly advocated and made an argument that everyone should just share in the previous round? Did you send out any PM’s trying to convince everyone to share as you did to convince everyone to steal? (By your own admission)
Honestly, I’m starting to think all of this jive you’re talking is so that you can justify stealing.
Why? You do realize had all 33 players agreed to join the pool there would be no reason for Wizard to continue the game, right?
Think about it for a second: If it was everyone v. the Wizard (as all would be in one pool) then making the optimal play (which is literally ANY play except all steal) would be easy and there’d be no reason for Wizard to add rounds or increase prizes.
I don't need to justify stealing. My steal the last round was the corrrct play. It kept money for my team and the main pool. You voted share in my opinion knowing your non poolers and side poolers would vote steal and maximize return to your pool unless someone voted a 3rd steal which cost money.
Quote: prozemaAll this assumes ODs table is accurate.
My results table is not yet up to date. Sorry.
Quote:I'd be happy to vote share if I believed everyone else would do the same especially with the offer OD made, but I disagree that this is a good group of captians.
With the exception of OD, everyone else has confirmed they are not in the big pool or have not committed one way or another.
I still like your idea of excluding those that have not committed from the pool. It would narrow their options and assist in future decision making.
Anyway, I did ping my team for feedback and thoughts, but I also made it clear my team is not a democracy.
The team captain choice would seem to have been deliberate mischief by Wizard. Good for him.
IMHO. Team captains should engage in lots of PM's regardless of what the other team members are saying. My team's almost a democracy :o)
Quote: OnceDearMy results table is not yet up to date. Sorry.
The team captain choice would seem to have been deliberate mischief by Wizard. Good for him.
IMHO. Team captains should engage in lots of PM's regardless of what the other team members are saying. My team's almost a democracy :o)
I have pinged every Cap with the exception of Max who has already started his intention to steal.
I was quite frank with each cap on what I thought about whether they could be trusted based on the OD table which I now know may or may not be accurate. While I was direct in my private communication, I was also professional and asked everyone to correct me if I was wrong with my assessment of their position and their willingness to collaborate.
Anyway, I do want to pubicaly apologize if the table data brought me to assessing any Capt s position incorrectly.
Quote: prozemaAnyway, I do want to pubicaly apologize if the table data brought me to assessing any Capt s position incorrectly.
My apologies for not having updated the results. I was on vacation and will get it fixed today.
Let us know if Max changes or reconfirms his stance
Quote: OnceDearI'll need you to agree to a non-disclosure agreement and will need Mike to confirm that you have honored your side of the deal before I send Payment.
I will have nothing to do with it.
It might be worth it to PM Max as well. His STEAL declaration had some contingencies. Plus, his post was before OD sweetened the pot with his own ££.Quote: prozemaI have pinged every Cap with the exception of Max who has already started his intention to steal.
LOL. Sort of expected that response.Quote: WizardI will have nothing to do with it.
So, ONM and I ( a pair of scheming rogues if ever there were ) would have to trust each-other.
Quote: troopscottI don't need to justify stealing. My steal the last round was the corrrct play. It kept money for my team and the main pool. You voted share in my opinion knowing your non poolers and side poolers would vote steal and maximize return to your pool unless someone voted a 3rd steal which cost money.
Yeah, nice try.
I announced my intention to always share before I was even officially in the game, much less in a side pool.
What do the non-poolers do for me? They’re not in our side pool. How does that help me?
Also, I predicted either everyone would share OR three or more teams would steal. I made that prediction knowing I had already shared. Kind of an odd prediction since you’re maintaining I was counting on one or two teams only to steal.
An all share last round was objectively the best decision. An all share this round, especially with OD’s add on, is objectively the best decision. The only way a team could do better is be the lone team to steal...but guess what? Multiple teams are going to steal and the overall pool of players will have failed to maximize their return yet again.
Or, maybe not. Maybe $3.03/player will be enough compared to a possible $4 or $5 for one team, but I’m not holding my breath.
As far as non-poolers and side poolers, I’ve made that argument. If all players were in the main pool, then the game would already be over.
Let me tell you what you have as a counterargument to that:
NOTHING
Also, I was a team leader last round. It would have, “Maximized return to my pool,” for me to have stolen. There are three people in my pool. I figured GWAE might steal and one of my pool mates was on his team, but what’s better, $0.66 for him to go to our pool or $0.50 for each of us?
$0.66
Or
$0.50 * 2 = $1.00
It’s not hard. I did the right thing for the group as a whole despite being in a side pool. Did you ever try to convince GWAE to share?
Come back when you have an argument.
Quote: OnceDearQuote: WizardReady for Round 7?
Here are the teams:
Team Leader Followers Vote 1 OnceDear Joeman, miplet, SM777, gordonm888 2 Ayecarumba MidwestAP, PokerGrinder, Dalex64, RS 3 djatc Romes, GWAE, Mission146, JohnnyQ 4 onenickelmiracle Mikey75, AxelWolf, gamerfreak, Jmarch79 5 prozema Keeneone, Jufo81, troopscott, PlayYourCardsRight 6 DJTeddyBear beachbumbabs, SOOPOO, Torghatten 7 MaxPen Face, Nathan, UKMark
Here are the other details:
- Pool with at least one steal: $20
- Pool with all share votes: $50
- Deadline: 9AM Vegas time, Monday, July 23.
I'd like to remind everyone that advance votes will no longer be accepted. If I don't hear from a team captain, I'll accept a vote from the first listed "follower."
Hmmmmf....
So far, it looks like there is very little chance that all teams will vote share, because of the well thought out constitution of the teams and the rogues in team leader roles.
So... Let's see if we cant incentivize an 'all share' outcome... and screw the max out of Mike.
If all teams 'share' I'll add $50 the the pot making it a princely $100 total. I'll add nothing if there is a steal.
You get to screw Mike to the max and screw me to the max as well. A Win-Win-Win scenario.
However, I need to throw out this observation. I'm one of the voting team leaders and turkeys do not always vote for Thanksgiving. I do not celebrate Thanksgiving.
$;o)
So. All share = 100/33.
1 steal = 20/4 or 5.
And you know it won't be just one team stealing.
I suggest, since the pot has such a lopsided amount, that the captains publicly committ to share, in the thread, rather than in PMs.
So the best possible strategy HAS to be share. Guaranteed 3.33 per person against at least a 90% chance of less, with more than 1 team likely to steal, if any do at all.
just send Amazon code, it's done. You can lie but Amazon can't.Quote: OnceDearI'll take it. How would you like payment? I can either send it to you by paypal, or I can send it to Mike to be credited to your account in the game.
I'll need you to agree to a non-disclosure agreement and will need Mike to confirm that you have honored your side of the deal before I send Payment. Mike or BBB will vouch for my honesty in making payment as promised.
Quote: MaxPenMy stance is very simple. If all captains state they will share. Then I will as well. Otherwise, I vote steal.
I will vote share also under the same conditioons outlined above.
I think that 2 of 7... Who else is in?
Coop Game 2 is a Plan A/Plan B game. Plan A for most of us is to vote Share with the hope that everyone will vote Share. But the moment that you learn (or strongly suspect) that another captain will be stealing; you need to switch to Plan B because the world has changed and there is almost certainly no longer any reason to vote Share.
Life is a PlanA/PlanB type of game as well. Plan A is World Peace but you switch to Plan B if someone invades your country, or invades Czechoslovakia and Poland. Plan A is marry the girl of your dreams; but you switch to Plan B if she makes it clear she has no interest in you and you discover she is screwing the entire football team. Plan A is to be a professional gambler/poker player, but you switch to Plan B if you are broke, living in your car and starving.
The ability to recognize that PlanA is not working and to turn on a dime and execute a PlanB is essential to surviving and living a happy life. Math arguments that don't address the PlanA/PlanB nature of this game are not very persuasive to me.
Quote: JoemanPlus, his post was before OD sweetened the pot with his own ££.
Check it, OD did say "$$". Reckon that makes a difference as portraits of Her Majesty carry a bit more weight.
Quote: MaxPenMy stance is very simple. If all captains state they will share. Then I will as well. Otherwise, I vote steal. Unless the majority of my team wants otherwise and makes that known. I'm not PMing a bunch of people over pennies.
I'm always down for co-op, until I get screwed. Then my entire objective becomes vengeance.
Do as you will, so long as you return with treasure or heads.
Hey ONM. would you REALLY sell your team's vote for such a low price. Is your soul so cheap? Do I need it or even want it?Quote: onenickelmiraclejust send Amazon code, it's done. You can lie but Amazon can't.
Let's look at a few scenarios.....
All teams vote 'Steal':-
Distinctly possible, but an absurd tactic that I hope is unlikely. The whole collective of members loses $100 Mike and I both save ourselves $50. And I'm branded as dishonorable. I respond that I'm not the only one that didn't cooperate. If you'd sold me your vote, then both you and I would be damned unpopular.
I don't buy your vote, but I personally cast a vote of 'Steal' and you or another team votes 'steal' :-
I save myself $50 in bounty and don't give you $7. The whole collective of members loses $80 and Mike saves himself $30 I'm damned unpopular.
I don't buy your vote, but I personally cast a vote of 'Steal' and no other team votes 'steal' :-
I save myself $50 in bounty and don't give you $7. The whole collective of members loses $80 and Mike saves himself $30. And I'm branded and lynched.
I don't buy your vote, but I personally cast a vote of 'Share' and you or another team votes 'steal' :-
Someone else saves me $50 in bounty and don't give you $7. The whole collective of members loses $80 and Mike saves himself $30
I do buy your vote for $7 and use that to vote 'Steal', but I personally cast a vote of 'Share' and another team votes 'steal' :-
I save myself $50 in bounty but I've given you $7. The whole collective of members loses $80 and Mike saves himself $30. I'm branded dishonorable. You are just branded.
I do buy your vote for $7, but I personally cast my vote and your vote as share and no other team votes 'steal' :-
I yield up $50 in bounty and give you $7. The whole collective of members gains $80 and Mike gets mad at me for costing him $30. And I'm branded as a poor AP. You are either praised or branded or both..
I do buy your vote for $7, but I personally cast my vote and your vote as share and some other team votes 'steal' :-
Someone else saves me $50 in bounty though I give you $7. The whole collective of members loses $80 and Mike saves himself $30. Someone else is branded, but shrugs.
There are other scenarios, no doubt.
If Mike finds himself cheated out of that extra $30, he will probably be less inclined to make the prizes better in later rounds. It might be in our long term interests to have at least one steal.
It might be in our long term interests to have at ALL teams steal.
Quote: OnceDear
It might be in our long term interests to have at ALL teams steal.
I'm not going to lie and pretend that I just read that text wall, but I did just check the PMs I sent last night and all have been read with very few responses.
I'm sticking with my estimate that full cooperation from this group of captians is not a reasonable expectation.
Quote: gordonm888Troopscott is saying that when you you feel certain (or reasonably certain) that another captain will vote steal, that Mission's mathematics arguments about incentives no longer apply. I think troopscott is correct.
Coop Game 2 is a Plan A/Plan B game. Plan A for most of us is to vote Share with the hope that everyone will vote Share. But the moment that you learn (or strongly suspect) that another captain will be stealing; you need to switch to Plan B because the world has changed and there is almost certainly no longer any reason to vote Share.
Life is a PlanA/PlanB type of game as well. Plan A is World Peace but you switch to Plan B if someone invades your country, or invades Czechoslovakia and Poland. Plan A is marry the girl of your dreams; but you switch to Plan B if she makes it clear she has no interest in you and you discover she is screwing the entire football team. Plan A is to be a professional gambler/poker player, but you switch to Plan B if you are broke, living in your car and starving.
The ability to recognize that PlanA is not working and to turn on a dime and execute a PlanB is essential to surviving and living a happy life. Math arguments that don't address the PlanA/PlanB nature of this game are not very persuasive to me.
Thank you for wording my point better than I did
What exactly is wrong with "allowing" one team to steal one week (or two or three weeks in a row)?
Quote: WizardI wish to say that I think vote buying is contrary to the spirit of the game. There is no rule against it, but there is also no rule in me lowering future prize purses as a result.
And this is why we can't have nice things. ;-)
Don't worry wiz... Everyone is going steal this round and we'll save you a bundle.
I'm struggling with why I'm not sending in my steal vote now and posting a screenshot so all the heat is on some other team to share or shoot the group in the foot.
Help me out here.
Quote: prozemaSo let me recap... Max and I have agreed to share if conditions are met which includes other caps committing to sharing, which no one else has done.
I'm struggling with why I'm not sending in my steal vote now and posting a screenshot so all the heat is on some other team to share or shoot the group in the foot.
Help me out here.
It's the best group so far I think. I'm pretty much the key factor this round. Give me temporary full control war powers, I will make the peace and get the share done.Quote: prozemaI'm not going to lie and pretend that I just read that text wall, but I did just check the PMs I sent last night and all have been read with very few responses.
I'm sticking with my estimate that full cooperation from this group of captians is not a reasonable expectation.
I talked to Max Pen and he is willing to share.Quote: onenickelmiracleIt's the best group so far I think. I'm pretty much the key factor this round. Give me temporary full control war powers, I will make the peace and get the share done.
Quote: onenickelmiracleIt's the best group so far I think. I'm pretty much the key factor this round. Give me temporary full control war powers, I will make the peace and get the share done.
Ok, I could see all caps deferring their vote to a single king working, if it's a good king... But dollars against donuts that won't happen. It's just too much incentive of the ??? poolers (Play both sides people) to make a move.
We're f'ed. Prepare to get a blank in round 7.
What happened to king soopoo? He would have rotated the single share and that would have been that.
Quote: prozemaOk, I could see all caps deferring their vote to a single king working, if it's a good king... But dollars against donuts that won't happen. It's just too much incentive of the ??? poolers (Play both sides people) to make a move.
We're f'ed. Prepare to get a blank in round 7.
What happened to king soopoo? He would have rotated the single share and that would have been that.
I think the wizard himself said, "show me someone playing both sides, and I'll show you someone that is up to something"
Shame on the ??? Poolers.
I need a bird in my hand. Cannot be vulnerable to the switcheroo double cross.Quote: AxelWolfI talked to Max Pen and he is willing to share.
I will guarantee a few peoples word. if they don't share after I say they will I will kick in whatever money it cost your team.Quote: onenickelmiracleI need a bird in my hand. Cannot be vulnerable to the switcheroo double cross.
I have more people who are also committed that I'm willing to guarantee but there's no reason to go further unless you are willing to give a commitment as well.
Quote: MaxPenMy stance is very simple. If all captains state they will share. Then I will as well. Otherwise, I vote steal. Unless the majority of my team wants otherwise and makes that known. I'm not PMing a bunch of people over pennies.
This is my stance as well. There are 100 reasons for us to all share.
Quote: onenickelmiracleI need a bird in my hand. Cannot be vulnerable to the switcheroo double cross.
What do you want? A contract fully veted with a gambling attorney over nickels? If OD's records are correct, you are one of the players not committing to pool or not pool which is the majority of the problem.
Quote: onenickelmiracleI need a bird in my hand. Cannot be vulnerable to the switcheroo double cross.
If Max told Axel he will share, he will.
Max himself said he will share if he gets commitments from the other captains. He will, if you all will.
Maybe your concern is someone else. But you won't need to worry about Max, as long as the others come through.
Quote: AyecarumbaThis is my stance as well. There are 100 reasons for us to all share.
My records now show max, aye, and myself willing to share if other caps post they will. That 3 of 7... Where are the other 4?
Quote: prozemaI think the wizard himself said, "show me someone playing both sides, and I'll show you someone that is up to something"
Good memory. Yes, I did say that.
Quote: prozemaMy records now show max, aye, and myself willing to share if other caps post they will. That 3 of 7... Where are the other 4?
Maybe you need to take your nuclear card off the table. Will you, or OD commit to share no matter what the others do, so that all the pooled players get a piece of something, rather than all of nothing this round?
Quote: AyecarumbaMaybe you need to take your nuclear card off the table. Will you, or OD commit to share no matter what the others do, so that all the pooled players get a piece of something, rather than all of nothing this round?
I'll let OD speak for himself if he chooses to do so.
I have been very active in attempting to collaborate this round... Same for you and a couple of others....
But there are captians this round (as there have been every round) who do the opposite of cooperating with the group. They are staying silent and engaging unknown tactics based on what we say.
We all know the results of prior rounds where everyone voted share. Considering the silence by others and past results, I'm feeling a very low probability of all share.
With that said, I'll see what my team thinks about taking a leap of faith via PM and consider their preference. I may or may not share the results pubicaly in advance. I might even lie about what I'm going to do.
With 4 of 7 captians not committing to sharing and my team holding 24% of the poolers, my steal vote would give the poolers more than any other single steal vote (assuming someone shares).
Quote: prozemaI'll let OD speak for himself if he chooses to do so.
I have been very active in attempting to collaborate this round... Same for you and a couple of others....
But there are captians this round (as there have been every round) who do the opposite of cooperating with the group. They are staying silent and engaging unknown tactics based on what we say.
We all know the results of prior rounds where everyone voted share. Considering the silence by others and past results, I'm feeling a very low probability of all share.
With that said, I'll see what my team thinks about taking a leap of faith via PM and consider their preference. I may or may not share the results pubicaly in advance. I might even lie about what I'm going to do.
With 4 of 7 captians not committing to sharing and my team holding 24% of the poolers, my steal vote would give the poolers more than any other single steal vote (assuming someone shares).
We don't "know the results of previous rounds where everyone voted share". There have been NONE of those.
I'd think OD is pretty well committed to vote share, with his supplemental offer. Except it's fair for him to have the caveat that, if he's looking at people who are not committed to sharing, he should them be able to vote steal himself, as taking the best remaining course for himself and his team.
So, the best possible course for all of you captains is to vote share, and realize the full $100, rather than attempting a steal. And publicly commit to it, so that OD can also commit.
I would also add that we did maximize 1 round through coordination, although it required 3 shares and 4 steals to work. And a lot of PMs. But people were very willing to play together in order to get the best possible result. So giving up in advance of trying to work it out is defeatist rather than realistic.
You guys can do this.
Quote: prozema
What happened to king soopoo? He would have rotated the single share and that would have been that.
The group isn't smart enough to trust me.
Quote: GWAEI have not been contacted via PM by a single person in this game outside of 2 PMS sent to me by team members. I was captain and during that time not a single captain conversed with me at all so there is no cooperation going on at all. People can yap in this thread but that's all it is. At least from my end.
Are you suggesting that TroopScott never PM'ed you with an eye towards sharing last round? Imagine that.
Quote: gordonm888Troopscott is saying that when you you feel certain (or reasonably certain) that another captain will vote steal, that Mission's mathematics arguments about incentives no longer apply. I think troopscott is correct.
The only person TroopScott felt certain, or reasonably certain, was going to steal was TroopScott.
We now know that TroopScott never contacted GWAE directly (via PM) with an eye towards sharing. How could he be so convinced that GWAE was going to steal without even talking to him?
And, then he wants to cast aspersions on the non-poolers and side poolers, which makes absolutely no sense, because if 100% of players would pool together, the game would be over. It would be maximize strategy every single time, so Wizard would have no reason to continue the game or increase prizes. Why would he?
Further, he wants to question my personal motivations, which is patently ridiculous. In terms of the, "Side Pool," between myself, RS and MaxPen, there is no set of circumstances whatsoever in which it is not best for me to steal. None. If I am the only player to steal, more money goes to my pool. If another member of the side pool is on a team that steals, my stealing increases the overall amount of money our side pool gets.
TroopScott says he sent PM's with an eye towards everyone stealing, but one person wouldn't get on board and wanted to share no matter what. Ask him who that was.
Yet, he steals and then casts aspersions on my motivation to share...which aspersions that make absolutely no sense whatsoever?
Laughable.
Wrong.
You are playing with each other, but you're playing AGAINST Wizard, not each other. Maybe use that to inform your decisions in the future.
A.) Everyone shares.
B.) OnceDear steals.
Again, you're playing against Wizard, not each other, but it doesn't mean Wizard can't recruit temporary teammates.
(Thanks for liking my post, OnceDear, I meant to bring that up but forgot until I saw that.)
ADDED: If he really wants everyone to share, then how does being locked into a share vote hurt him?
