2016 Election -- Part II
Poll
 | 57 votes (47.89%) | ||
| | 33 votes (27.73%) | ||
| | 12 votes (10.08%) | ||
| | 10 votes (8.4%) | ||
| | 4 votes (3.36%) | ||
| | 3 votes (2.52%) |
119 members have voted
Quote: MichaelBluejayDems should think really hard about this question: In 2012, if a tape had surfaced of Obama saying the exact same things that Trump said, would Dems roundly condemn him and throw their support to Romney? I doubt it. I wouldn't, and I'll admit it. Much as the comments are disgusting, no matter who said them, I'd still vote based on who I thought would be better for the country (or inflict the least damage). That's what Trump supporters should be saying now, because at least that's plausible. The fact that they're falling all over themselves to *defend* his comments shows just how hopelessly partisan they are. And to be clear, I think if the shoe were on the other foot, Dems would be just as ridiculously defensive of their own nominee.
Thanks for being honest, I believe you are 100% correct. It may effect a few undecided but those who have made their choice will stick with it. The only thing I see changing this outcome is if the Johnson people deciding they don't want to "waste" their vote at the poll and voting for 1 of the 2.
Quote: terapinedI vote left not for Clinton but for a liberal Supreme Court justice and some issues
Some of those decisions affect me and my friends lives
Gay marriage
Choice
HB2
Net Neutrality
Legal pot
I believe strongly in freedom in international trade
My job depends on it
Trump could crash the international markets with tariffs.
Do you think any of these social issues are going to change with a GOP congress? Pot has become a state issue already. The trade issue is very valid but many will argue without a change in trade, the jobs will keep leaving the country maybe even hurting you at some point.
Looks like Trump and Hillary have something in common.Quote: ams288Here's the story:
Trump recorded having extremely lewd conversation about women in 2005
I wonder if the phrase "Grab them by the pussy" will come up in Sunday night's debate?
They both like grabbing pussy.
Anyway, Trump is in bigger trouble than at any point in his campaign. Republicans are not just condemning him, they are running away from him. As Soopoo said, many may engage in activities that may be less than acceptable in the eyes of many--but only one of them is running for President.
I don't think the whole Bill Clinton thing will help him get through this. Bill has done lots of bad things and his wife has been accused of aiding and abetting his behavior. That is sick. The issue with using it as a defense of the tape that came out about Trump is that the public already knows these things about the Clintons, has developed opinions on it, and using it will have very little additional impact on public opinion. It also won't play well with the undecided--it will be seen as an "excuse" rather than an "apology".
I am less likely to vote for Trump that at any point in the general election campaign. I was not "for" him in the primary in this state (I voted for another candidate) and any lukewarm support of him at this point comes because he is the only candidate in the election who is at least 50/50 to nominate conservative justices in a time where more than one justice may be replaced over the next four years. I don't want a Court that plays too loosely with the Constitution.
Quote: BozI still wonder why so many people are so excited their candidate may win. Is it really going to change your life? And would the other candidate have hurt your life? If so, I honestly believe you need to look at what you are doing and step up and take charge. Stop being a victim. America is full of opportunity for everyone if they look. Neither candidate or party cares about the average middle class person. So whatever happens in your life is up to you. Stop looking for the reasons why you can't do something and find ways to do it.
As I have said before, successful people will find ways to continue to grow their lives regardless of what is thrown in front of them. And complainers will never be happy, always looking for someone to blame. If Hillary wins it still will be the GOP Congress keeping them down, not allowing her to make their lives better. When the person that could change their life is looking them in the mirror everyday.
Balls. What we know is that Hillary likely will not change your life appreciably. She is predictable. Whereas Donald is not. Donald can send troops to war. He will have nuclear codes. He is extremely reactionary. He has tantrums. He is disrespectful to women. He is racist. The rank-and-file of the GOP doesn't deny that. He is bad for the GOP party and even bad for the tea party because he hold many democrat values. He will enact some form of gun control. He will not stand up against abortion rights. He will not reverse gay marriage. He will not exert any kind of fiscal control, all hallmarks of both the tea party and the GOP. All he has the potential to be, at best, is "not Hillary".
If Donald gets elected, it is likely that a number of my Canadian co-workers who do very good jobs working for respected US institutions will not be able to work in the US under a NATFA renegotiation (and Americans will not be able to work here). If Donald gets elected, there will be 4 more years of neglecting climate change. If Donald gets elected, racial strife will continue. If Donald gets elected, NATO may fold if Trump pulls the funding. If Donald gets elected, his tax plan will increase the deficit by 5 trillion dollars. If Donald gets elected, the face of world politics the the US position in the world will change inexplicitly for the worst.
People look in the mirror and say "what opportunity do we have today?". Well if you're white and male, that's true. If you are female, the mirror question is "how good do I look today?", or "how do I avoid being raped/assaulted/catcalled/followed today?". If you are black, the mirror question is "when is the next time the police is going to stop me for doing nothing". Electing Donald doesn't change those questions. Fu**, neither does electing Hillary. But at least you know that Hillary will try to change things, while Donald will just exasperate.
Yeah, I know that some people will not vote for Hillary because of her Emails, her Foundation, Benghazi and whatever else WikiLeaks will find, which demonstrates her long term of being a career snake in politics. But to vote in an sexist, racist unpredictable farce of a clown?
Look, if you are taking a "not" position this election, the choice should be crystal clear. The person that makes that decision and could change their life is looking them in the mirror everyday. Stop looking for the reason why you can't do something and find your way to a voting booth or early poll or absentee ballot and do what's right.
But he doesn't.
And when you promise to make Bill's infidelity an issue, it doesn't help you much when you admit to hitting on a married women and grabbing women them by the pussy while you just married your third wife.
If Donald does bring it up during a debate, you can bet Hillary will bring in another skeleton out of his closet and it will be Trump again, exasperated, stating, "Where did you find her?".
But I am reminded of a line from the film THE COLOR OF MONEY. Tom Cruise has just demonstrated the frenetic behavior that gives him an edge over his pool-table opponents. Paul Newman has one question - "Can you turn it on and turn it off?" Fast Eddie knows that a persona can be strategically effective but it must be under control.
Trump has shown an inability to temper his persona ( alpha-male, uber-competitor) even when it costs him to maintain the façade. I have to conclude that he either truly is a shallow, low attention self-promoter or that he lacks the smarts and discipline to adjust his conduct to appeal to those outside of his base support. In either case he lacks the skill-set to lead our country.
Quote: MichaelBluejayDems should think really hard about this question: In 2012, if a tape had surfaced of Obama saying the exact same things that Trump said, would Dems roundly condemn him and throw their support to Romney? I doubt it. I wouldn't, and I'll admit it. Much as the comments are disgusting, no matter who said them, I'd still vote based on who I thought would be better for the country (or inflict the least damage). That's what Trump supporters should be saying now, because at least that's plausible. The fact that they're falling all over themselves to *defend* his comments shows just how hopelessly partisan they are. And to be clear, I think if the shoe were on the other foot, Dems would be just as ridiculously defensive of their own nominee.
The problem is that it's just not one tape. When you add Miss Universe, Howard Stern, the Playboy Videos, and now this tape, you have a chronology of lewd and sexist behavior (while married) over 10+ years. That alone should do something to the Evangelicals who support him.
I can give a concrete example that might have shaken Obama up in '08 which was him in Muslim garb. There was a single instance of that shown in the '08 campaign, and recently a very small sample of photos that appeared a couple of months ago. Obama was able to explain that way as a one-off. However, if the campaign had shown additional instances of Obama with a prayer mat, spending time in Mosques, and a one-off conversation with Access Hollywood off-mike admitting that he hated Christians and was in fact, Muslim (draw the analogy yourself), AFTER HE BECAME THE NOMINEE, then you would have a lot of Democrats running away from the candidate. Right? Right.
Well, Wiz, you and I are both married, right? Our lack of crudeness hasn't seemed to adversely affect our attractiveness. Apparently some women dig guys who aren't jerks.Quote: WizardHowever, in my 51 years on earth I've noticed the men that talk like that get women, and those who don't, don't.
Quote: WizardI don't understand why this video is so surprising or shocking. Who thought Donald was a complete gentlemen in the first place? I'll fault him for talking like that with a microphone on, which a public figure should always assume is live. However, in my 51 years on earth I've noticed the men that talk like that get women, and those who don't, don't.
Post of the day. Nothing there anyone can argue with. It may or may not be the way we act, but no one should be shocked Trump does.
Quote: BozPost of the day. Nothing there anyone can argue with. It may or may not be the way we act, but no one should be shocked Trump does.
My friends that treated woman like that are now multi times divorced and are being taken advantage of by girls that are younger than their daughters.
Kind of like the dumpster. What was cool at 25 is sad at 55.
In the end class, or lack of it, will win out.
Maybe when you were 22 years old "getting women" was a laudable goal. But now? Age matters. Trump was no single frat boy when he made those comments, he was married and 59 -- eight years older than you are today. Can you imagine having the lecherous appetites of a frat boy eight years from now? Would your wife be happy about it? There comes a point in a boy's life when he grows up and realizes women are not simply things to be gotten. Some get there later than others, but someone who's almost 60 and hasn't figured that out yet? What tiny fraction of a civilized society does that reflect?Quote: WizardI don't understand why this video is so surprising or shocking. Who thought Donald was a complete gentlemen in the first place? I'll fault him for talking like that with a microphone on, which a public figure should always assume is live. However, in my 51 years on earth I've noticed the men that talk like that get women, and those who don't, don't.
I heard Jason Chaffetz last night talk about how he couldn't face his 15-year-old daughter if he continued to support a man who talked and thought the way Trump does. He was among the first in a growing list of GOP officials who have either unendorsed Trump or demanded he withdraw from the race.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/gary-herbert-trump-women_us_57f85540e4b0e655eab48044?section=us_politics
I think this is an updating list, but as of right now 12 GOP senators are on it. There are only 54.
If Trump is a double agent trying to destroy the GOP and/or ensure the Supreme Court is replenished by progressive judges, he's finally figured out how.
Gee, this is some kind of record I'm sure.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/01/28/upshot/donald-trump-twitter-insults.html?_r=0
Sunday's debate should be interesting. I wonder if he'll actually start yelling at someone who asks him a question. From the CPD:Quote: rxwineTrump is a geyser of spew. Only surprised it takes so long for some to care.
Quote:The second presidential debate will take the form of a town meeting, in which half of the questions will be posed directly by citizen participants and the other half will be posed by the moderator based on topics of broad public interest as reflected in social media and other sources. The candidates will have two minutes to respond and there will be an additional minute for the moderator to facilitate further discussion. The town meeting participants will be uncommitted voters selected by the Gallup Organization.
It's almost guaranteed that the hot mic comments come up, and I don't even think it'll get as far as the moderators before one of the uncommitted voters in the audience puts it on the table. What could Trump possibly say in response to the audio recording in order to sway those uncommitted voters to vote for him? Because I don't think pointing at Hillary and saying "her husband cheated on her and she helped cover it up" is a winning strategy.
Quote: DTRobersI do understand the argument that Trump, on this tape, was just a guy being a guy in a bull-session that was never meant for public revelation. There is a long history of political figures conducting themselves with less than gallant behavior in regards to women. Bill Clinton had well-publicized affairs and JFK was a serial adulterer. LBJ, in private, is alleged to have been fairly profane in his language even pre-pc standards as imposed today.
Same as it ever was. Here's a NSFW and very funny, I mean, highly offensive, letter from Machiavelli.
http://alphahistory.com/pastpeculiar/1509-machiavelli-throws-up-prostitute/
Quote: MathExtremistMaybe when you were 22 years old "getting women" was a laudable goal. But now? Age matters. Trump was no single frat boy when he made those comments, he was married and 59 -- eight years older than you are today. Can you imagine having the lecherous appetites of a frat boy eight years from now? Would your wife be happy about it? There comes a point in a boy's life when he grows up and realizes women are not simply things to be gotten. Some get there later than others, but someone who's almost 60 and hasn't figured that out yet? What tiny fraction of a civilized society does that reflect?.
As long as you didn't cheat, I think most wives would love it if you maintained the appetites of a frat boy.
Rich and famous men lead different lives than most of us. Women throw themselves at them. Very attractive women. Certainly, part of the reason we mellow with age is that we become less attractive, or decide it's not worth all the effort. But what if you were very attractive and it took minimal effort?
A willingness to have easy sex with someone doesn't mean that you regard all people of that gender as "things to be got." I don't think groupies see all men as "just things to be got" either. It's quite normal to just want to do it with somebody.
In Trump's case, he probably sees all people as things he can use. We all do to some degree, but it's probably more true of him. And of Hillary, and most certainly of Bill. That's why they are who they are, and why I can't believe anybody would be surprised by this.
Quote: billpruittAs a producer on seasons 1 & 2 of #theapprentice I assure you: when it comes to the #trumptapes there are far worse. #justthebegininng
Quote: Rigondeaux
As long as you didn't cheat, I think most wives would love it if you maintained the appetites of a frat boy.
Rich and famous men lead different lives than most of us. Women throw themselves at them. Very attractive women. Certainly, part of the reason we mellow with age is that we become less attractive, or decide it's not worth all the effort. But what if you were very attractive and it took minimal effort?
A willingness to have easy sex with someone doesn't mean that you regard all people of that gender as "things to be got." I don't think groupies see all men as "just things to be got" either. It's quite normal to just want to do it with somebody.
In Trump's case, he probably sees all people as things he can use. We all do to some degree, but it's probably more true of him. And of Hillary, and most certainly of Bill. That's why they are who they are, and why I can't believe anybody would be surprised by this.
I find the defense of Trump weird. A lot of CEOs who openly did everything he does would be out the door in about two heartbeats. Trump can't be fired of course from his own companies.
Notice the word "openly". I have no idea what any of them are hiding in private, but generally if they are working for a corporation they are expected to maintain some standards.
Quote: onenickelmiracleI am angered by all the talk on removing him from the ballot, wanting him to drop out, etc. Just shows how corrupt things really are when they think there is always a way out, always an option. He is the man people voted for and they have to live with it.
Just a little perspective.
Quote:"The remaining 60 million people voted in the primaries: about 30 million each for Republicans and Democrats. But half of the primary voters chose other candidates. Just 14 percent of eligible adults 9 percent of the whole nation voted for either Mr. Trump or Mrs. Clinton." NYT, Aug 1, 2016
And
From http://www.politifact.com/north-carolina/statements/2016/jul/08/donald-trump/donald-trump-set-record-most-gop-primary-votes-eve/
Trump got 13.3 million primary votes. But there were also more than 16 million against him. So less than 1/2 of his party supported him at best during the primaries.
FWIW, Hillary got 16.8 million votes in the Democratic primaries, with Bernie getting 13.2.
Quote: ams288Apprentice producer Bill Pruitt tweets:
That might explain some Republicans bailing off the Trump crazy train so quickly. Word might be spreading that more is coming.
Quote: MichaelBluejayDems should think really hard about this question: In 2012, if a tape had surfaced of Obama saying the exact same things that Trump said, would Dems roundly condemn him and throw their support to Romney? I doubt it. I wouldn't, and I'll admit it. Much as the comments are disgusting, no matter who said them, I'd still vote based on who I thought would be better for the country (or inflict the least damage). That's what Trump supporters should be saying now, because at least that's plausible. The fact that they're falling all over themselves to *defend* his comments shows just how hopelessly partisan they are. And to be clear, I think if the shoe were on the other foot, Dems would be just as ridiculously defensive of their own nominee.
As others have said, I've certainly had conversations that were more lewd than that. If there were any chance of me voting for Trump in the first place (there's not) the comments themselves wouldn't change that other than the moving in on married women aspect of it. That part of it, if Obama admitted to moving in on married women, for example, there's no way I'd have voted for Obama.
(For the record: By, 'More lewd,' I am not suggesting that grabbing women by their vaginal region without prior permission was in any way part of any previous conversations I have ever had. I was merely stating that, in general terms, I have had more graphic conversations in my life.)
Quote: billryanMark Burnett has the tapes.It was his production company that made them.
But it doesn't seem like he's willing to release them... Trump has made him a lot of money over the past decade.
And whenever reporters (even reporters from NBC) try to contact his production company about the tapes, they get no response.
Quote: beachbumbabsJust a little perspective.
And
From http://www.politifact.com/north-carolina/statements/2016/jul/08/donald-trump/donald-trump-set-record-most-gop-primary-votes-eve/
Trump got 13.3 million primary votes. But there were also more than 16 million against him. So less than 1/2 of his party supported him at best during the primaries.
FWIW, Hillary got 16.8 million votes in the Democratic primaries, with Bernie getting 13.2.
40% of the vote out of 17 candidates compared to 60% head to head is not apples to apples. Sure some dropped out quickly but it was a much bigger field, and I'll even give you Lincoln Chafee, lol.
Quote: Boz40% of the vote out of 17 candidates compared to 60% head to head is not apples to apples. Sure some dropped out quickly but it was a much bigger field, and I'll even give you Lincoln Chafee, lol.
Thanks, Boz. I agree. It's just perspective, not analysis.
Quote: rxwineI find the defense of Trump weird. A lot of CEOs who openly did everything he does would be out the door in about two heartbeats. Trump can't be fired of course from his own companies.
Notice the word "openly". I have no idea what any of them are hiding in private, but generally if they are working for a corporation they are expected to maintain some standards.
You do? I don't find it any more weird than the defense of Hillary and her improper (and illegal) handling of classified information important to her "corporation" simply for convenience and to avoid the Freedom of Information Act. A CEO who did that would likely be ousted if the information withheld was detrimental to the corporation or stockholders.
These two are indefensible. That we have to get it down to who did the "worst" thing instead of who can lead our country in the "best" way is truly disheartening. I can in no way excuse Trump's behavior (as I stated earlier) but I also can't find any VALID defense of Hillary's actions. Trump mistreats women and is accused of many other things that are not nice at all, some of them provable allegations. The FBI proved Hillary did not follow the law but did not seek criminal charges.
I think I will be voting below the Presidential line in this election...
PA:
Clinton 49
Trump 37
FL:
Clinton 45
Trump 42
I really can't wait to see what the margin is in a week or so...
# of members who will decide who to vote for or change their chosen candidate based on Trump tapes = 0
# of voters who think the debates may impact their vote = 4
The tapes will hurt, of course, but I don't think it will be as severe as everyone on the other side would like. What will hurt much worse is another poor debate performance. I think the tapes will disappear in the noise; a poor debate performance will have a much longer lifespan.
Quote: RonCCBS Face the Nation has their focus group on this morning...
# of members who will decide who to vote for or change their chosen candidate based on Trump tapes = 0
# of voters who think the debates may impact their vote = 4
The tapes will hurt, of course, but I don't think it will be as severe as everyone on the other side would like. What will hurt much worse is another poor debate performance. I think the tapes will disappear in the noise; a poor debate performance will have a much longer lifespan.
The problem for Trump supporters is there is little faith he will handle this correctly tonight. Those who are still not decided want to hear plans and issues, not an attack on Bill Clinton. He can overcome this, but odds are he won't. Instead he will make it worse.
Quote: BozThe problem for Trump supporters is there is little faith he will handle this correctly tonight. Those who are still not decided want to hear plans and issues, not an attack on Bill Clinton. He can overcome this, but odds are he won't. Instead he will make it worse.
I think the Clinton campaign secretly wants him to go hard after Bill Clinton. They know it will backfire on him and I'm sure Hillary is well prepared to handle any attack he throws at her tonight.
Quote: RonCYou do? I don't find it any more weird than the defense of Hillary and her improper (and illegal) handling of classified information important to her "corporation" simply for convenience and to avoid the Freedom of Information Act. A CEO who did that would likely be ousted if the information withheld was detrimental to the corporation or stockholders.
These two are indefensible. That we have to get it down to who did the "worst" thing instead of who can lead our country in the "best" way is truly disheartening. I can in no way excuse Trump's behavior (as I stated earlier) but I also can't find any VALID defense of Hillary's actions.
If Trump and Hillary were hired by 100 entities each, Hillary would be fired maybe 2 times. Trump about 89.
Well, that's what I believe.
Quote: saw this in yahoo comments section25 THINGS I TRUST MORE THAN HILLARY
Mexican tap water
A wolverine with a pet me sign
A mixed drink made by Bill Cosby
A straight edge shave from Jodi Arias
An elevator ride with Ray Rice
A night out with Aaron Hernandez
Brian Williams memory
Michelle Obama staying at a Motel 8
Visiting the capitals of all 57 states Obama thinks exists
Pinocchio
The Boy that cried Wolf
The Cleveland Browns going to the Super Bowl
A Nigerian inheritance email
An unconscious pilot alone in the cockpit
Harry Reids exercise equipment
An IM from Anthony Weiner
Anything Nancy Pelosi has ever uttered
A factory packed parachute
A kiss from Judas
An Afghan wearing a backpack
Whatever Bill Clintons definition of is is
If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep your healthcare plan
A North Korean trial
A BIC pen that doesnt leak
A tuna fish sandwich left on a city bus for three days
Quote: RSReminder: We're voting for the president of the United States, not a girls' cheerleading coach.
and part of the interview process is to seek votes from one of the largest voting blocks in the nation.
Women comprise 53% of the vote
He should have come out immediately, humble , and genuinely apologize with no mention of excuses or Bill
That would be the smart move
You get out in front of these things
Instead a weak video. Typical Trump
What's worse
Some black teens exonerated of rape through DNA and Trump in in Hangem high mode.
Its over for him
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/10/08/donald-trumps-doubling-down-on-the-central-park-five-reflects-a-bigger-problem/
Quote: beachbumbabsThanks, Boz. I agree. It's just perspective, not analysis.
It's really not. The field was reduced to half that before 2% of the votes were cast, and was down to five before 15% of the votes .
Quote: onenickelmiracleAlec Baldwin actually was hilarious as Trump opening SNL last night. Four stars I'm sure. It was hilarious. They were allowed to say pussy cat without the cat, which surprised me.
I was surprised the news anchors used the word. One guy said it repeatedly until the woman he was interviewing asked him to stop.
He pointed out that she had just said she had no problem with Trump having said it.
If there was footage of Donald Trump using the N-word, would that be enough to officially end his campaign?
Because according to Twitter, that footage exists...
Quote: ams288Time for a (maybe not so-) hypothetical question:
If there was footage of Donald Trump using the N-word, would that be enough to officially end his campaign?
Because according to Twitter, that footage exists...
No. How do you propose ending his campaign? He won't give up and that (and death or serious illness) is the only real way to get him out. The talking heads have been saying there are meetings about this and that, but all of us know that something would have likely leaked by now if there was a way to dispose of his candidacy. He's in it until the end; however inglorious that may be...
It isn't like he is really a "Republican" in any real sense. Do you think he cares about the betterment of the party other than for his own purposes?
More likely is a swing of money to the candidates for lower level elections (House/Senate) and away from Trump. Even that could fail if he maintains 40% support or so--his supporters could decide not to support those candidates because of the slight to him.
This will not end well for Trump.
The issue is that Trump supporters also believe that any publication by the Times, Post or any news media outlet that isn't Breitbart, WND, or Fox are directly fed by Hillary.
In any case, while Trump will score plenty of points for people who are already voting for him, but I don't see his strategy attracting voters that he requires: women and people of color.
He has to start with a repeat of his apology, but if he starts digging into Hillary (as Hillary will play the card, and he will take the bait, as Donald must be Donald), he will surely not appeal to women. Not a chance.
Trump can score some jabs on trade and the comments that Wikileaks released regarding the Wall Street speeches. Hillary will take him off topic.
Should be interesting.
Well, he certainly has a lot in common with Republicans:Quote: RonCIt isn't like he is really a "Republican" in any real sense.
Wants tax cuts for the rich
Disdains political correctness
Denies climate change*
Claimed Obama wasn't born in the U.S. (Only 27% of Republicans think he was born here.)
Promotes "white" politics (Muslim ban, most Mexican immigrants are rapists, supported by most white voters)
Says Hillary will destroy America
Opposes government regulation of business
*Most Republicans actually acknowledge climate change, but the deniers are almost exclusively Republican.
I'm sure there are more. Anyone?
What's the definition of a "real" Republican, anyway?
And before someone accuses me of being partisan, in this same thread I gave a big list of things about Hillary that aren't liberal.
