billryan
billryan
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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July 11th, 2020 at 9:35:43 AM permalink
Can't we just stipulate you both have large penis's and stop worrying about whose is bigger?
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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July 11th, 2020 at 10:02:26 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Darkoz is correct about the Pennsylvania State Troopers, though I wouldn't swear on a Bible that they have an office at all of the, 'Resort,' designated casinos, and I'm an Agnostic. Better safe than sorry. They definitely have an office at every larger casino. If you ever get backroomed, you'll almost certainly have the pleasure of meeting at least one of them.



Have you ever heard the saying "Im not locked in here with you, your locked in here with me" ... well they couldnt keep myself from wandering into the back rooms...

and like i said i really do believe darkoz because i had initially "heard" this from other places as well
kewlj
kewlj
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July 11th, 2020 at 10:03:33 AM permalink
The case I referenced, in Pennsylvania, probably 2012/2013 time period, I am not arguing that what the players did was illegal. I don't think it was a crime. It was something about a zillion players do, playing on other people's cards, often family members and spouses. The case in question just tried to use it to bully a group of AP's.

I would put it like card counting: Maybe against a casinos "rules" (house rules as PGDan used to argue), but not a crime. BUT Pennsylvania charged it as a crime, at least initially. THAT is what was newsworthy about the case. The case was either dropped or my recollection is that charges were reduced tp almost nothing and a deal made with the players involved.

There is someone on this forum that is familiar with this case because I have spoken to him about it. Exactly how familiar, I can only speculate. I was hoping my previous comment would bring him out to comment, but it didn't.

The thing is when all these new states got involved in the game, 10-15 years ago, they all wrote regulations as if they knew what they were doing. Half of those regulations were not legal, at least as written. I happen to believe that same state, Pennsylvania along with many others belief that they can bar players from a game is not legal in those jurisdiction. Simply writing the regulation does not make something legal or law.
billryan
billryan
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July 11th, 2020 at 10:22:22 AM permalink
A Forum member was awarded one of Station's random jackpots while laying on his wife card. It was quite a bit of money, more than six figures if I recall, and after some discussions it was paid even though he wasn't the card holder. He discussed it at length when it happened.
kewlj
kewlj
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July 11th, 2020 at 10:37:10 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

A Forum member was awarded one of Station's random jackpots while laying on his wife card. It was quite a bit of money, more than six figures if I recall, and after some discussions it was paid even though he wasn't the card holder. He discussed it at length when it happened.



My late partner, used to handle all our machine play, which was basically just giving enough play to get mailer offers that were disproportionately beneficial and overcame any -EV of the initial play. (The most elementary of stuff).

So he would be playing on several cards, at most properties. He hit many small handpays with no issue, but eventually, a Boyd property raised an issue. They paid him with out much hassle, but they claimed he couldn't do that. After that I decided he should play all play not on his card at the .25 cent level to avoid any handpays. This would be a little more time consuming for him. Then he started playing multi-hand machines at the .25 cent level. Some time later he drew a royal (original 5 cards) on a 50 play, .25 cent machine for 50 grand. He took the card out before attendant got there and had no problem.
Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
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July 12th, 2020 at 3:36:24 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Good for you if you've examined the laws of all states with casinos and players club cards. That's 48 states, right? (No casinos in Utah and Hawaii.)

I haven't examined all of the state's laws.



I literally said not a crime in any state in which Iíve looked into it and I canít speak for every state.

Hawaii and Utah are notable for being states with NO legalized form of gambling, but several states do not have casinos. Alaska and Kentucky are two other examples, but there are several more.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Sandybestdog
Sandybestdog
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July 13th, 2020 at 11:10:57 AM permalink
It's like that old saying "I don't know what it is but I'll know it when I see it". Husband and wife sitting next to each other playing on the same card, most places won't have a problem with that. My mom and I have sat next to each other playing on her card. Still probably fine but starting to get a little iffy. Me playing on my mom's card without her there? Most casinos will probably not like that. Walking into a place with 28 of other peoples players cards and start cashing out freeplay? I mean come on what do you expect?

If you hit a handpay there's not a non-Indian casino where you won't get paid but you may very well get 86'd afterwards. Have I played on someone else's card? Maybe a couple times. Have I cashed other people's freeplay? Yes. But I'm not going to make a habit of it. For me it's usually just a way for me to cover some of my travel expenses. Freeplay teams ruin it for us real AP's who get freeplay for legitimate play.
darkoz
darkoz 
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July 13th, 2020 at 11:30:44 AM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

It's like that old saying "I don't know what it is but I'll know it when I see it". Husband and wife sitting next to each other playing on the same card, most places won't have a problem with that. My mom and I have sat next to each other playing on her card. Still probably fine but starting to get a little iffy. Me playing on my mom's card without her there? Most casinos will probably not like that. Walking into a place with 28 of other peoples players cards and start cashing out freeplay? I mean come on what do you expect?

If you hit a handpay there's not a non-Indian casino where you won't get paid but you may very well get 86'd afterwards. Have I played on someone else's card? Maybe a couple times. Have I cashed other people's freeplay? Yes. But I'm not going to make a habit of it. For me it's usually just a way for me to cover some of my travel expenses. Freeplay teams ruin it for us real AP's who get freeplay for legitimate play.



I agree it's a complete no-no with casinos however pretty much all AP is.

Otherwise there would be no backoffs for card counting.

As to ruining it for other legit AP's you admit you have done it yourself. Would you say 3% of the volume I do is fair?

No casino I am aware of has a 3% tolerance for using other people players cards

I know people trespassed for using one other person's card.

In fact I know casinos that have trespassed people who used THEIR OWN PLAYERS CARD because they took their offers without additional play. (Unclear if they were trespassed or just no-mailed as they were told verbally over the phone.)

One can argue professional Blackjack card counters ruined the game by causing casino's to switch to 6/5.

I suspect however that if you are legitimately earning offers it's not really a problem.

I also suspect no casino would say there are any such thing as AP's earning legit offers lol.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
DRich
DRich
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July 13th, 2020 at 12:03:40 PM permalink
I will go back to my standard answer. It is not illegal to play on someone elses card but it may be illegal to collect the freeplay and benefits.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
kewlj
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
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July 13th, 2020 at 12:21:52 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

One can argue professional Blackjack card counters ruined the game by causing casino's to switch to 6/5.



One can argue that, as the casino industry has done, but it is simply nonsense.

Card counters do not effect the casinos bottom line. What little money a few successful card counters take, the casinos make back ten fold by all the card counters that are improperly funded (under funded) and know just enough to do themselves harm.

The Bill Zender findings were spot on. The Casino industry became so obsessed that a very small number of players could make a little money, insignificant money as per the bottom line, that they ended up spending a dollar for every penny they saved trying to thwart card counters. If they were going to be concerned, it should have been with only the extreme top of card counters, the well funded players and teams. Everyone else they should have done nothing about, even offered deeper penetration, because like Zender showed, that money comes back many times over by players that think they are playing a winning game but aren't.

Just the concept of card counting, the idea that the game can be beat is one of the best things that happened for the casino industry. We know this because in the period just after the movie "21" and the several books about the MIT teams came out, blackjack revenue at casinos soared. The same thing happened as far back as the 60's when 'Beat the Dealer' hit the market. Blackjack revenue soared. the public thinking they can beat the casinos is the best thing that happens to the casinos, when the truth is so very few can and do and like I said, that money comes back 10 fold for those that try and don't.

The blame for 6:5 falls squarely on the casino industry and greed, same as the "00" in roulette, and the lower pay tables in video poker. CASINO GREED.

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