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Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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September 14th, 2011 at 4:18:28 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Is that why 95% of gamblers leave with less than they came in with?


Not true, again EvenBob doesn't know the facts and stats -
1. 80% of gamblers' sessions have points in which they are ahead, comfortably ahead - could be more aptly put as, "they WERE ahead." That's the thing. Human excitement and avarice turn wining sessions into losing sessions; player lose it back, then "chase" losses. There were times my wife came to me at a table (Sunset Station, Cannery, etc.) and said, looking at my pile of chips: "Dan, we're leaving NOW" (she who must be obeyed...) with my response being "I can't! I'm $2,000 ahead, and had only been playing for three hours...." The fact of the matter is that gambling itself can be intoxicating.
2. The statistics on "Table Hold" - or the amount of money a casino table game actually keeps averages 25%, not anywhere near the 95% range. So three-quarters of the tables' buy-in money - 75% is won right back out and is cashed out to the players. If you don't think this is true, you can read the stats yourselves from the Missouri gaming commission right here at Missouri Gaming Statistics Click on Riverboat Revenue, drop down table on Slot/Table Payout Percentages.
3. Even if it were 95% (which it is not), also note that 100% of movie patrons, 100% of restaurant patrons, 100% of show patrons, 100% of amusement park patrons, 100% of any other entertainment venue - 100% of patrons leave with "less money than they came in with." Ture?
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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September 14th, 2011 at 4:24:46 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Does that mean in a couple of weeks when I'm in the Golden Nugget, I should be able to get a copy of the house rules for black jack, and it will state I am not allowed to count the cards? Or similar wording? I'm just curious.


Yes, you can. It's printed right on the table:
1. Dealer draws until 17, hits soft 17.
2. Insurance Pays 2:1.
3. Anything else that you feel you can do that isn't officially printed on the table (e.g., mark cards with invisible ink, use a miniature camera on the table to view hole cards, or count cards) the friendly floorman, pit boss, or security guard will advise you on.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
weaselman
weaselman
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September 14th, 2011 at 5:13:39 AM permalink
Quote: heather

There is a story, certainly apocryphal but sometimes presented as fact, that Roulette was invented by a priest or a monk who was trying to raise money for his church/monastery. He was successful in what I suppose may have been the very first Casino Night fundraiser (a tradition that my local Catholic churches seem to be interested in maintaining, FWIW, albeit without games as expensive to set up as roulette, and always with terrible table limits). The cleric then became obsessed with beating the wheel, and spent the rest of his life trying to come up with a system that would allow him to do so, possibly at the expense of his own reputation. Incidentally, this is how we know the story is apocryphal; as the cleric himself would have been the House, he would have already had a system guaranteed to leave him ahead built right into the game in the form of HE.


That apocrypha is usually told about Blaise Pascal. He was not a cleric, but (later in his life) was a devout Catholic, and has written many works on Catholic philosophy.
He is said to have invented roulette as a byproduct of trying to invent a perpetual motion machine.
The last part of the story usually goes differently though - his invention quickly gained popularity, and has been adopted by several casinos, and he indeed became obsessed with beating it ... and he did (the primitive wheels had many imperfections, and he would be able to find bias in each of them), and got banned from all casinos in France.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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September 14th, 2011 at 5:17:55 AM permalink
Quote: matilda

Let me get this straight--A casino offers to the general public a game of skill that it believes will be profitable. No one forces the casino to do this. But if a person has any skill at the game of skill, perhaps by counting, it is against the unpublished house rules and the person may then be barred, backroomed, handcuffed, and kidnapped by the casino while waiting for the police to cart him/her off to jail for the crime of using his/her brain in the game of skill. A more fortunate player is simply told that he/she can no longer play the game while others with lesser skills may play, even though the casino is open to the general public. In some cases the offending player is told that he/she may not vary the size of the wager in the game in spite of the fact there is a sign on the playing surface that states the minimum and maximum bets allowed. This, of course, means the casino is violating its own published rules.

If Paigowdan believes that the forgoing is in anyway justified, I suggest that he has swallowed the corporate pill and his brain is addled.

To keep this thread on topic--FrGamble, do you really want to enter into this lion's den?



Matilda is a little overboard on this: backrooming, slapdowns, "Casino Kidnappings" - etc.

1. Casino cheats (those who get caught marking cards, pinching and capping bets, using devices to cheat slot machines and table games), may get detained by security, or get a warning by the shift manager, or even held for the police, much in the same way someone may get held by police if they are caught with a jamming device on a bank's ATM machine would also be held by security guards for the police. This is actually not unreasonable, my fellow gamblers. Really, this is what is done. There are NO backroom slapdowns, goon squad work overs, etc., like we saw in the recent movie "21" that half of us believe here. Defraud a casino or bank of money by open cheating, a security guard detains you for a police pickup with surveillance and statement evidence, and everyone calls their lawyers. That's it. No goon squads, or kidnappings, what have you. The good old days are gone!

2. Blackjack Card counting is against the casino house rules everywhere here in Nevada, but it is not Police matter. It is a casino matter to deny you service on this, flat bet you, or to ask you to leave. You are asked to play another game, or are asked to leave, and if a repeat offender, you do go into a "book" of known offenders. It is considered like showing up to a Buffett luncheon with a six-gallon Tupperwear container and saying, "Oh, I'm just taking home a little doggie bag!" For the record, I don't think Jesus would do either this OR count cards. It's just a non-starter. And people will honestly state, "But it DID say all you can eat??!! I do not see WHY I can't take a six gallon tub and LOAD UP??!!" We also consider card counters like the people who go into movie theaters with camcorders to copy new films, etc.,
It is this way because historically, Blackjack was once considered to be an uncountable game long by everyone before Edward Thorpe found a way to do it, and then publicly publish the method. Casinos kept blackjack as a popular game for the 90% of players who don't try to count, but instead use basic startegy and just play straight up. The job of the casinos is to pluck off the counters from "the innocents" at the tables, with the view that card-counting is a unacceptable bad faith gesture at the Blackjack table.

3. The Casino House set the rules of fair play, and it doesn't matter how unfair and horrible 'some' gamblers feel about it, be they members at this board or Anthony Curtis' LVA or where ever: 95% of players are fine with casinos and have a great time, and are happy with casinos being present as an entertainment outlet, and we are happy with them; 5% are not and feel casinos are supposed to be a "free bank" and HATE it because we are not, and do cause problems. We do 90% of our game protection work to handle the 5% of cheats, card muckers, and sadly yes, to include card counters, even though technically legal.

4. The MIT card counting team from Boston did not make their money for charity, and yeah, they took casinos down hard at times, [I can just hear the cheering of this at the board: "You GO, guys!]. I do not feel that anyone, including Clergymen, should refuse to play by the house rules, but for that matter, if I ran a Buffet Luncheon, I'd feel no one should be putting food into 6-gallon tubs, and if I owned a movie theater, I'd feel that no one should sneak in video cameras to copy movies, regardless of religious affiliation.

5. Even though you won't believe it, we like - no, LOVE our winners, that is our clean winners. We comp them, we even print articles in newspapers (August 6th lvrj: "Chastine M. won $172,929 playing EZ Pai Gow Progressive at the East Side Cannery 8/6/11 !!!") No one "sweats" the money, except for one fossilized old school floorman who is past his retirement. Either you trust mathematics, or you trust superstition like the old-school sweaters, who most of us casino workers cannot stand. Casinos run games, and we take the side of "casino mathematics" that we'll make our money, with GOOD feelings for those who come in to play. (I said play.) Casinos have a built-in house edge by the design of the games, and they're needed to finance our operations in order to offer a gambling outlet to you fine people in the first place. We don't need to cheat, or to hate our customers, or whatever: we just need to trust and enforce "the math," that's it. Mike publishes the house edges of virtually all games at his companion site at WOO.

6. It is NOT a lion's den!! It's Milquetoast if you behave yourself and just come for a good time. Play some cards, roll some dice, play some video poker, but treat it as an entertainment outlet without trying to turn it into a personal free bank.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
ikilledjerrylogan
ikilledjerrylogan
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September 14th, 2011 at 5:46:41 AM permalink
So if you sit down at a new 6d bj game and 24 consecutive aces come out. What do you do? You're lying if you say you don't notice it and don't leave the game to find a better one. But if you do leave the game you consider that to be against the "house rules" because you happened to notice how the past cards affect your odds and act accordingly.
ikilledjerrylogan
ikilledjerrylogan
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September 14th, 2011 at 6:03:55 AM permalink
Dan, I do understand where you're coming from considering the fact that if most people in these forums had their way then there would be no house edge and money would rain down from the casino ceiling. So therefore, as someone in the gaming industry, you try to present more of a perspective from the other side as a counterbalance. We appreciate that perspective. But the analogies you provide like bootlegging are absurd. A better analogy is to say card-counting is like remembering a movie after its over instead of having to pay to see the same movie over and over. The movie theatre industry would love the latter but ban the former because the former would remind their bad memory friends about the plot and save them from constantly buying tickets to the same movie. This would cause the theatre to lose money and therefore people with a memory would be banned. Having a memory and acting based on that memory is against the "house rules". So if you believe Jesus wouldn't count cards then I guess he would have to turn a bunch of water into wine and then guzzle that wine so that his memory wouldn't be an issue ;)
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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September 14th, 2011 at 6:10:29 AM permalink
IKJL -
I will give you that.
If I dealt 24 consecutive aces to a player from a fresh six-deck shoe, I will take it as an absolute sign from the God of Abraham that counting is kosher, I honestly will.
I will recount every "casino cop" position I every held in my life, and turn myself around to the dark side (or the light side, as it is viewed in this board). I will become an advantage player, will let players cap and pinch bets without reporting it to floor supervision, I will personally become what I had previously considered evil.
This is a promise to you and to God.
I once was playing at the Strat with my brother on a full table with a 6-deck shoe. The very first deal: 14 cards came out - all 6's and less, I swear. I REALLY debated to myself "should I bet the max?" I went up from green to a black as did everyone else (and I never FELT SO DIRTY!) and we ALL got 19s and 20s!!
AND THE DEALER FLIP OVER A BJ! AAUUUGG!!! Primal scream - f-me!! I actually felt relieved, as I though that little show was the price. I KNOW it was a random shuffle, but it was a freak hand. It happens.
The dealer smiled after that (a shit-eating grin) and quietly said, joking around, "ahh...you little fuckers thought you were slick! Na-HA!!
I busted out with a smiling laugh on the order of a Buddha baby.
I continued to play out the shoe and won $500 of off it, contrary to Even Bob's belief that that cannot ever happen. My brother and I went to a show with the cash.
But I took that freak hand to mean that larger forces are at play.
Not the Angels and deamons, but the forces of variance.

Edit:
As for the analogy of remembering a movie, no it isn't. I don't repeat movie views until a period of time has past, and the movie is great.
To become proficient in the "dark arts" of Advantage Play requires conscious effort and work, - with nefarious intent and purpose - to gain an edge in violating a know good faith house rule, plain and simple.
When I'm in the casino pit, it's my job - my calling - to make sure both sides play by the rules, no shenanigans, don't care who wins and loses, feel the same about players as I do my own management. And my official line is that I love them both!
I LOVE a clean winner - as my own game design - EZ Pai Gow - had lost $172,000 to a player I know from Fiesta Henderson, who is also a dealer. A seven-card straight flush with a dime ($10) on the bonus AND a progressive bet, on Agust 6th. (Hear that, Bob and you other people!! She paid off her house without card counting. THE LORD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS, and he is even present in a casino. Especially in a casino!)
Orders for my game came flying in, much in the same way that junkies buy the dope that others had OD'ed on, as the cops say. There were more "Asses in seats" than a Brazillian porno movie....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
ikilledjerrylogan
ikilledjerrylogan
Joined: Aug 18, 2011
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September 14th, 2011 at 6:13:03 AM permalink
Well well well the truth comes out lol You shouldn't feel dirty because you used your brain. WWJD :)
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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September 14th, 2011 at 6:23:49 AM permalink
No, I feel dirty when I use my brain without conscience. That's different.
:)
I am STILL trying to reconcile with myself about my Gaming Industry career choice. To be a saint and a cop in a den of thieves.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Nareed
Nareed
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September 14th, 2011 at 6:54:06 AM permalink
Quote: matilda

If Paigowdan believes that the forgoing is in anyway justified, I suggest that he has swallowed the corporate pill and his brain is addled.



That's a little harsh.

I counter-suggesto Dan is a successful game developer with a number of installs, which hopefully will keep growing, and thus he has an interest in the house edge remaining an edge.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

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