Convert free play to cash?
Quote: billryanThe Blackjack game is only a better bet when trying to convert free play into credits you can cash out. If you play a hundred hands at $1 each you will turn $1 in FP into $2 cash when you win, and $1 for ties. When using your own money, a push doesn't pay, but using FP ,it does
Coach, Bill is probably explaining it better than I am.
This thread is about Freeplay specifically and the best way to turn it into cash
What is called a "win" can in fact be only a push.
In Bonus and JOB for example, a pair of Jacks is called a win but it's actually a push.
However here is what happens (example):
You bet $5.
You are dealt a pair of Jacks.
On the redraw your pair of Jacks does not improve.
The machine keeps the $5 that you bet.
The machine pays you $5 for the pair of Jacks.
That is called a win.
Its actually a draw because the game keeps your $5 that was bet.
Quote: billryanThe Blackjack game is only a better bet when trying to convert free play into credits you can cash out. If you play a hundred hands at $1 each you will turn $1 in FP into $2 cash when you win, and $1 for ties. When using your own money, a push doesn't pay, but using FP ,it does
A push converts FP to cash with VP too, and at the same rate as VBJ.
It doesn't matter whether the game's screen displays "WIN" or "PUSH' for a 1 for 1 payout...it's the same resolution, and that requires "achieving" the same (or nearly the same) odds.
Whether you download FP or insert cash, you still wager and win or lose credits.
Is it mathematically more likely for a player to win credits on VBJ than 9/6 JOB?
That's the only explanation of why VBJ could be a better bet.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThe machine keeps the $5 that you bet.
The machine pays you $5 for the pair of Jacks.
I'm not mislead by the VP language, I understand that a push is a push, even if the VP screen displays "WIN".
Are you asserting that your scenario above is different than the machine returning your initial wager to you?
If you wager 5 credits on VP, your pair of jacks returns 5 credits...it's a push, your initial wager gets returned to you, and you have won zero credits.
If you wager 5 credits on VBJ and tie the hand...it's a push, your initial wager gets returned to you, and you have won zero credits.
FP or cash, these scenarios produce the exact same results.
It sounds like DO is asserting that VBJ will return more credits using FP than 9/6 JOB will, but he seems to be confused by the terminology displayed on the screens.
I believe his point is that VBJ pays more for a "min" win, than VP does.
But he's wrong...a 2 for 1 two pair is a min win on VP, a 1 for 1 pair of jacks is a push.
Not following too closely, but isn't the point that the VP explicitly treats this tie as a win and so absolutely converts the FP to cashable winnings where the BJ might call it a tie and not convert the FP to cashable?Quote: coachbellyI'm not mislead by the VP language, I understand that a push is a push, even if the VP screen displays "WIN".
Are you asserting that your scenario above is different than the machine returning your initial wager to you?
If you wager 5 credits on VP, your pair of jacks returns 5 credits...it's a push, your initial wager gets returned to you, and you have won zero credits.
If you wager 5 credits on VBJ and tie the hand...it's a push, your initial wager gets returned to you, and you have won zero credits.
FP or cash, these scenarios produce the exact same results.
If you push on VBJ, then you are paid 1-FOR-1.
If you get a high pair on JoB, then you are paid 1-FOR-1.
Video Poker refers to this as a, “Winning hand,” but you have pushed monetarily. You don’t play VP against a dealer, so it’s not called a, “Push,” it’s called a win.
Quote: OnceDearNot following too closely, but isn't the point that the VP explicitly treats this tie as a win and so absolutely converts the FP to cashable winnings where the BJ might call it a tie and not convert the FP to cashable?
From my experience, FP is a "bet it once" proposition...on any machine or table game.
As Dieter explains, once wagered the machine captures the FP, and returns cashable credits after the hand is resolved.
Quote: DieterVBJ takes freeplay or cash funded credits as coin in and pays cashable coinout credits.
0 for 1 for a loss.
1 for 1 for a push (tie).
2 for 1 for a win.
Various other payouts are possible in the event of splits and doubles.
1. Most common in my experience, when you load free play, it adds credits to your balance as if you added cash, but you can’t cash out until these have been, “Run through,” once.
You can cash out any cash from before or winnings, but free play credits will remain until they have been played once.
2. The other way I have seen, but is less common in my experience only, is that the Free Play is, “Attached,” to the card…so only winnings show up as credits on the machine and whatever credit balance is actually on the machine is cashable.
So, the cash credits on the machine are reduced, but then the amount comes out of the free play on a loss and replenishes the credits, or on a win, you get whatever amount was won and the free play is converted to cash credits.
I think a few people have been perhaps talking past one another and getting confused because of the different ways the machines can handle free play.
Quote: Mission146The entire last two pages of this thread seem to be predicated on the notion that a Free Play bet works differently from a cash bet.
If you push on VBJ, then you are paid 1-FOR-1.
If you get a high pair on JoB, then you are paid 1-FOR-1.
Video Poker refers to this as a, “Winning hand,” but you have pushed monetarily. You don’t play VP against a dealer, so it’s not called a, “Push,” it’s called a win.
You are, of course, correct.
Can you comment on this?...
Quote: darkozI'm making the point that having to achieve 2:1 odds isn't the same as having to only achieve 1:1 odds for the same payout.
DO is explaining the difference between a 2-pair "min win" in VP (where the player wins the amount of his initial wager) and a VBJ "min win" winning hand.
Since the VP initial wager is returned as part of the payout, VP pays 2:1 for a min win, whereas in VBJ the initial wager remains in the betting circle, so VBJ pays 1:1 for a min win.
Therefore, he seems to be asserting that a VP min win must be harder to achieve than a VBJ winning hand.
Is he correct?
DarkOz might be trying to convey that you win more hands on Blackjack than you get 2P+ on Video Poker, which is true, but that doesn’t have anything that I can figure out to do with the Expected Return.
If he’s saying running through FP on VBJ is going to have a tighter actual return range than VP, then I generally agree with that. That’s a function of variance. Blackjack has lower variance than does VP. Obviously, you also can’t potentially win 800x bet on BJ.
That’s why I said it depends what a person’s goals are, EV aside. With certain video roulette games (if available and they take Free Play) you can guarantee a specific actual return on a particular amount of free play…but you would sacrifice expected return to do that.
Quote: AlanMendelsonWhat's the best SLOT game for converting free play to cash? I'm including video poker as a slot game.
I would say it's 9/6 Jacks but because I've hit AAAA too many times on Jacks my game of choice is 8/5 Bonus.
Would you rank 9/6 Jacks first and 8/5 Bonus second?
Best I've played is deuces wild where four-of-a-kind pays 5-for-1.
Quote: Mission146
DarkOz might be trying to convey that you win more hands on Blackjack than you get 2P+ on Video Poker, which is true, but that doesn’t have anything that I can figure out to do with the Expected Return.
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Yes, that's precisely what I am saying.
This thread asks one question. What is the best way to turn freeplay into cash.
Quote: darkozYes, that's precisely what I am saying.
This thread asks one question. What is the best way to turn freeplay into cash.
It depends on what your goals are!!!
Quote: Mission146It depends on what your goals are!!!
Turning Freeplay into cash is a goal designed for minimum variance
Gambling your Freeplay to maximize your return is something different.
Unless I am misinterpreting the OP, he wants to know the best way to guarantee he will be able to turn freeplay into cash on his next visit.
The best way to do that is minimal variance.
Quote: Mission146It depends on what your goals are!!!
Okay. So if ones goal is to argue incessantly, which game do you recommend?
Quote: billryanOkay. So if ones goal is to argue incessantly, which game do you recommend?
Oh that's Must Hits
Quote: billryanOkay. So if ones goal is to argue incessantly, which game do you recommend?
Posting on message boards.
Roulette, if possible, equal amount on every single number, red/black split zeroes if it won’t let you bet all numbers, red and pick the black numbers all individually while splitting zeroes if it won’t let you do red and black.
Make the total bet exactly the Free Play amount, if possible. If not possible, go over by as little as possible.
You will know EXACTLY how much of the free play will become cash. There is zero variance.
Just not all casinos have this and some that do won’t take FP on it.
Quote: darkozTurning Freeplay into cash is a goal designed for minimum variance
Gambling your Freeplay to maximize your return is something different.
Unless I am misinterpreting the OP, he wants to know the best way to guarantee he will be able to turn freeplay into cash on his next visit.
The best way to do that is minimal variance.
That is absolutely not the definition of "Best". We are all allowed to define it for ourselves. And if someone really did define "best" as minimal variance with guarantees, I'm questioning how they are getting free-play at all (or even know what it is), because that person isn't playing casino games.
Slot game with least variance on $100 free play might be 10,000 hands of 1-cent blackjack. That would be about the most miserable way possible.
But there would still be a non-zero chance of not winning a single one of those 10,000 hands. So just sell the $100 to me for $1. Zero variance and guaranteed to turn the free-play into cash. That would be about the worst return on it possible (for them), which is like the exact opposite of best.
Quote: TomGThat is absolutely not the definition of "Best". We are all allowed to define it for ourselves. And if someone really did define "best" as minimal variance with guarantees, I'm questioning how they are getting free-play at all (or even know what it is), because that person isn't playing casino games.
Slot game with least variance on $100 free play might be 10,000 hands of 1-cent blackjack. That would be about the most miserable way possible.
But there would still be a non-zero chance of not winning a single one of those 10,000 hands. So just sell the $100 to me for $1. Zero variance and guaranteed to turn the free-play into cash. That would be about the worst return on it possible (for them), which is like the exact opposite of best.
The OP asked what is best. Obviously he isn't sure.
Of course I am giving my opinion to him and you are free to give your opinion
He seemed to be asking the best (in his terms) to play through once and have nearly 100% turned into cash.
Quote: coachbellyFrom my experience, FP is a "bet it once" proposition...on any machine or table game.
As Dieter explains, once wagered the machine captures the FP, and returns cashable credits after the hand is resolved.
In my experience on table games it isn’t quite bet it once. If you push a BJ hand at a table, you are left with the FP still and need to bet it again.
Quote: unJonIn my experience on table games it isn’t quite bet it once. If you push a BJ hand at a table, you are left with the FP still and need to bet it again.
On video blackjack, the credit meter is decremented at the beginning of each game. Wins, pushes, and surrenders (if offered) increment the credit meter with cashable credits at the resolution of the game.
I have only encountered a few ETG / Virtual blackjack machines that take freeplay (casinos are fussy around here). They also decrement the credit meter at the beginning of a hand, and increment the credit meter on wins, pushes, and surrenders.
This is different than leaving the freeplay chip in the circle on a push.
I know this is awkward language. It is specific to the freeplay conversion goal - decrementing the freeplay funded credit meter, and incrementing the cashable credit meter. In the case of credit meter rebate freeplay (seed money required, wager refunded at conclusion of game), the functional goal is the same - decrement the credit meter, then the game increments the credit meter with cashable credit, and the freeplay award system also increments the cashable credit meter.
Although I can actually think of a few situations that's not the case
Quote: Mission146
You will know EXACTLY how much of the free play will become cash. There is zero variance.
Just not all casinos have this and some that do won’t take FP on it.
Recommending cancellation wagering is a sure way to get an argument started.
Quote: DieterRecommending cancellation wagering is a sure way to get an argument started.
As always, I didn’t really want to spell it out, but it seemed like folks weren’t picking up what I was putting down.
Quote: DieterRecommending cancellation wagering is a sure way to get an argument started.
Because it's not gambling?
I'm about making money. Not guessing if I will.
Quote: darkozBecause it's not gambling?
I'm about making money. Not guessing if I will.
Made that point better than I could have.
Back on video blackjack:
Some freeplay systems have problems handling the subsequent split and double down bets. I usually see this on the seed/rebate type. The initial bet gets the freeplay credit, additional bets for splits and doubles do not. If that's an issue for you, be prepared for the possibility.
Some video blackjack also disables the bill/ticket validator during a hand.
If these things will offend your delicate sensibilities, run it through video poker or Willy Wonka.
Quote: darkozTurning Freeplay into cash is a goal designed for minimum variance
Gambling your Freeplay to maximize your return is something different.
Unless I am misinterpreting the OP, he wants to know the best way to guarantee he will be able to turn freeplay into cash on his next visit.
The best way to do that is minimal variance.
I agree with this. This is the question I asked. Thus is my goal.
Today I have $35 of free play at one casino. I want to run it thru one time on some machine and maximize my chance of getting $35 out of it. If i get more, then great.
To summarize. For weeks i had been playing 100 line VP but with reduced payables such as 6/5 Bonus and 8/5 TDB and betting $1 per play my typical return was about $20.
Then I tried 25-cent single line 8/5 Bonus. My return has ranged from $20 to ONE TIME getting $81.25 because I hit a SF for 250 coins.
These are my recent results.
Pre Covid when I got a lot more free play I bet differently.
But now I'm getting $45 and $35 and $40 free play sessions at various casinos several times each week.
Last night's run through was a little better than average. I had $35 and I cashed out $42.50
At another casino on Friday I had $40 but cashed out only $20
This morning my free play offers for September appeared on my players club online accounts:
Casino A which gave me $40 twice a week increased me to $45 twice a week. I also play craps here.
Casino B which gave me $35 twice a week reduced me to $25 a week. I rarely play craps here.
It depends on how many pennies got tossed out with it.Quote: camaplHow many seconds till you run back to retrieve them? lol
Quote: AxelWolfI usually toss free play offers under $50 in the trash.
I am in the same position. If it is a one time offer under $100 it is not worth my time.
Quote: DRichI am in the same position. If it is a one time offer under $100 it is not worth my time.
I think it would help if we knew how close/far the casino is?
When the Palms was open I rarely redeemed the $10 free play offers because it wasn't worth driving to the casino. But if I was in the neighborhood I'd use the free parking and play the ten bucks on a low level VP machine. In those cases cashing out five dollars made the stop worthwhile.
I wouldn't make a special trip to the Palms for less than $25.
Or is this feasible mostly only for new players coming in with promotional sign up bonuses?
Quote: MDawgIs it possible on slots to keep getting more freeplay than coin in, for existing players who keep playing?
link to original post
Or is this feasible mostly only for new players coming in with promotional sign up bonuses?
MDawg thinks I bring in new people every month for $10 bonus freeplay to the tune of $20,000 a week.
Since a year or ago or more he has claimed this.
Of course I won't tell him how I do my AP but he refuses to accept that running a chain letter of new sign up bonuses isn't how I operate.
Please excuse this interruption in your high roller discussion.
In any case, everyone will agree that the only truly "free" play is for new players, who don't have to input any coin to get it.
Typically when AxelWolf talks about whatever he has done at brick and mortar casinos, I get the impression that he is talking about something that happened so long ago that he can't help but refer to it with a tone of sepulchral awe. Whatever DarkOz is doing seems more current.
Quote: MDawglink to original post
In any case, everyone will agree that the only truly "free" play is for new players, who don't have to input any coin to get it.
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Yes, I will agree with this.
I earn all my Freeplay which is what really irks me when casinos accuse me of stealing it
I only get Freeplay because of money I gambled with.
To me it's the equivalent of frequent flier miles. And imagine if the airline claimed you stole your frequent flier miles because you earned them and then had the gall to actually use them
And yes, I am not even talking about multi-carding. I have had casinos claim just using one's own offers are stealing because I took the offer and then left
If you're asking what I played previously to get the free play the answer is it was at a casino where I play craps but no video poker. Since there are no incentives for playing craps I'm given free play for machines and I choose video poker.
My typical buy in at craps is $300. I play once or twice a month.
This casino has $10 and $15 tables.
During September they gave me $360 of free play.
Tonight I go to a casino that gives me $20 of free play. I havent played anything but free play there in three months. I used to get $50 of free play twice a week but they've been reducing me.
I have cut back all of my play because of Covid.
I am in and out of these free play casinos in less than ten minutes including time to wash my hands. I play late night to avoid crowds. I've found 8/5 Bonus near the entrances.
But as you mention, if you find an empty craps table then you will be quite far away from even the dealers.
If I follow your numbers correctly, $360. of freeplay for a single $300. craps session seems like a good deal, assuming typical house edge only losses and depending on hours played. For two $300. craps sessions - not sure. Of course if either one was a blowout then I couldn't say.
By the way, I play table games only, at a casino that owns the one at which I believe you play craps? They give me promotional chips every now and then which I may use at any table game including craps (although, I don't play craps). I never get anything to do with slots for my table game play. Unless maybe you're talking about a different casino from the one about which you frequently post here at WOV.
I know you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to things that I talk about. There are SOME many places in Las Vegas right now where I can get SOME hundreds in "true" freeplay per location.Quote: MDawgAlan, I think it's relevant if we could know how much you had to coin in to get the 30.75
link to original post
In any case, everyone will agree that the only truly "free" play is for new players, who don't have to input any coin to get it.
Typically when AxelWolf talks about whatever he has done at brick and mortar casinos, I get the impression that he is talking about something that happened so long ago that he can't help but refer to it with a tone of sepulchral awe. Whatever DarkOz is doing seems more current.
I'm really liking this some thing you fall back on, I could be talking about 1 or 60, $100 or thousands.
p.s. I haven't yet to do it, I'm waiting for something better.
One night recently I did walk away with more than 5k because I hit the ALL on the Bonus Craps bet FOUR times. Unfortunately none of the ALLs were back to back... and there were losses in between.
I bet $5 on each: small, tall and all. Hitting the all pays $1,065.
When you play a long time on $300 you get a lot of "points" towards your rating. The points generate the free play for machines.
By the way, a couple of months ago there was a shooter at my table who hit the ALL twice. I won about $2600 on his roll. But I blew it. This shooter held the dice for more than an hour. The big winner at the table was a player who started with $160 across (he did not bet the passline but made green chip bets on all six numbers). This player did NOT bet the all, tall, small. But he kept pressing his $160 across.
At the end of the hour+ roll this player had more than $25000 on the layout and he had won more than $42,000 which was in his rail. He said he bought in for $1,000.
Quote: AxelWolfI know you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to things that I talk about. There are SOME many places in Las Vegas right now where I can get SOME hundreds in "true" freeplay per location.Quote: MDawgAlan, I think it's relevant if we could know how much you had to coin in to get the 30.75
link to original post
In any case, everyone will agree that the only truly "free" play is for new players, who don't have to input any coin to get it.
Typically when AxelWolf talks about whatever he has done at brick and mortar casinos, I get the impression that he is talking about something that happened so long ago that he can't help but refer to it with a tone of sepulchral awe. Whatever DarkOz is doing seems more current.
I'm really liking this some thing you fall back on, I could be talking about 1 or 60, $100 or thousands.
p.s. I haven't yet to do it, I'm waiting for something better.link to original post
$100 freeplay offers are not uncommon. The company that I used to work for would give up to $2000 a week per player in freeplay. Granted only about two or three players got that. Quite a few were getting $500 a week and that was at locations that only had 15 machines.
Quote: AlanMendelsonlink to original post
By the way, a couple of months ago there was a shooter at my table who hit the ALL twice. I won about $2600 on his roll. But I blew it. This shooter held the dice for more than an hour. The big winner at the table was a player who started with $160 across (he did not bet the passline but made green chip bets on all six numbers). This player did NOT bet the all, tall, small. But he kept pressing his $160 across.
At the end of the hour+ roll this player had more than $25000 on the layout and he had won more than $42,000 which was in his rail. He said he bought in for $1,000.
Yes those are the craps rolls that get you interested in craps. The first time I won really big at craps I had the table limit on the line, with max odds behind, trying to hit an 8 I believe it was. And it wasn't like I routinely did that - this was a huge bet for me at that time and the most I had ever put out for craps. I hit it. I had little idea exactly how much it even paid, and when I found out I was shocked. Later I had max out twice for a shooter who hit the 4 and the 10 consecutively. That was quite a session, a huge huge win for me.
But then I recall other sessions where neither I nor anyone else could hit the point to save his life. And it was because of the up and down nature of craps that I gave it up many years ago.
When you have a loss limit of $300 it's the equivalent of dinner and a show.
And if your loss limit is $300 you can bet, for example, only $10 on each shooter and cheer along with all the high rollers.
I recall once years ago I lost a couple hundred dollars experimenting on some new form of Blackjack table at a casino we went to just for dinner. I hadn't even planned on playing.
Later, my girlfriend at the time said, "Well, it's only two hundred."
"Vegas was BUILT on people losing two hundred dollars on the way to dinner" was what I said to her.
