Wizard
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Wizard
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September 8th, 2010 at 11:18:08 AM permalink
I continue to get requests for advice on allegedly cheating boyfriends about once a week. Here is the latest one. I'll give her the URL, if any of you would like to add your two cents.

Quote: mrfoster

I saw your relationship advice on another website so I wasnt sure how to send things to you...
BUT last night my boyfriend of a year and a half and I were arguing a little and we were both on our computers (we are both in college). He grabbed my computer after hearing me chuckle a bit at something and so instictively, I went for his. He flipped out. Because it was obvious to me that there was something he didn't want me to see, I went outside and logged into his account. A friend of his was IMing him asking if he told me he "f***ed those b****es yet." We were apart for the entire summer and had some difficult times. The summer before we were away from each other and it went really well but we struggled though this one, partly because I felt like I knew he had been unfaithful but he made me feel like I was crazy and paranoid. I even went so far as to tell him I wasn't sure if I wanted to be with him because my feels about the summer were so strong. I just knew! So back to the situation, I found out it was 2 GIRLS and I broke up with him and kicked him out of my apartment. I got through the night but I feel at such a loss. I love him so much, we talked about marriage and children and now I don't know what to do. I've always said cheating is something I will not tolerate, but I can't stand not having him here. What do I do?



My response:

It could have been worse, had you been dating Joran van der Sloot, who is not big on women touching his computer.

FYI, your boyfriend was probably cheating the first summer too. Most young men are going to find it very difficult to go a whole summer without any nookie. If you can't accept that, then you should date guys like me, who take six months to get to second base, but I digress. If he is otherwise a good guy I'd stick with him. File this under youthful indiscretions, and don't leave him alone for three months at a time any longer.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Calder
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September 8th, 2010 at 11:33:48 AM permalink
I disagree. Cheaters cheat, forget him and get on with your life.

Quote: mrfoster

I got through the night but I feel at such a loss. I love him so much, we talked about marriage and children and now I don't know what to do. I've always said cheating is something I will not tolerate, but I can't stand not having him here.


But it seems she's already made her decision.
ItsCalledSoccer
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September 8th, 2010 at 12:36:26 PM permalink
Fun! Relationship advice-giving!

OK, the best answer is, you're in college, both of you are still clueless, and he's not the only guy in the world that will give you liver-quivers. We ALL thought we met THE ONE in college. Don't settle. If he's THE ONE, he'll still be THE ONE in 7-8 years.

But college kids hate that kind of perspective since it sounds too ... old-person-ish, and even though I'm not old, just old enough to know that life doesn't end after college. So how about this ...

I'm sure he has great qualities and a bright future. But if you're telling the whole truth, it sounded a little weird when he "grabbed your computer after hearing you chuckle." Add to that his reaction when you grabbed his, and it gets even weirder.

He handled your comment by deflecting it and making you feel stupid, which is just a way of not handling it. If he really had a concern for your feelings, he might have handled it with a little more sensitivity ... unless, of course, you do that kind of thing ALL THE TIME, which is a different conversation.

I think he still has some growing to do and confidence to gain when it comes to making a relationship work. That's okay, he's in college. But I think it does mean some major personality shifts are in his future, and if you like him now, you may or may not like these changes once they occur. I think anyone out of college by, oh, 5-10 years will tell you that, she was great in college but then we grew apart/she changed/whatever reason there is for losing touch. I think your situation is one manifestation of this.

As for you, my insecure friend, it should tell you a lot about your own need to gain confidence when you say things like, "I can't stand not having him around." Now, this is very real, and for people who are truly in love, it exists and is VERY powerful. It'll happen to you in due time.

But since you're still in college, I would say that it's pretty easy for you to get fooled by a counterfeit of this. That's okay, you're in college. Think back to when you first started liking boys, and how relatively sophisticated you are now in relationships compared to then. Well, in 5-6 years, you'll look back on now with that same perspective.

Counterfeits are devious and really cause people to do stupid things ... including Wizard (and me). So guard your heart, lean on the people that REALLY have your best interest at heart (family, friends, etc.), admit you don't know everything about how love feels, and try to keep some perspective.

- Frustrated Advice Column Writer
Ayecarumba
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September 8th, 2010 at 3:03:20 PM permalink
Dump him and don't look back. There are a lot of great, loyal guys out there. You can do a lot better, and deserve better. Check out the prospects in the computer lab at the Engineering school.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
AZDuffman
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September 8th, 2010 at 4:25:11 PM permalink
Lets get this straight--he has cheated on you several times that you seem to know of. He can't stay faithful for three months and you want to talk marrige and children. Here is some news for you--it isn't going to get any better. If you take him back you will be in for more of the same. Cheaters keep cheating-ask Hillary Clinton.

I am willing to bet you are with him because he is a "bad boy" kind of guy. If you stay with him I guarantee the following:

1. He will put off marrying you for as long as possible
2. If you do get married, it will last less than 5 years
3. You will get pregnant, by choice or accident, and hope it will settle him down
4. It won't
5. By age 30 you will have given up trying to get him to pay child support
6. Whoever you get to replace him after will cheat on you as well

Follow the advice of the earlier poster-try to pick up a new guy at the computer or engeneering department. Smarter guys usually have interests outside getting as much action as possible.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
MathExtremist
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September 8th, 2010 at 4:46:26 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I continue to get requests for advice on allegedly cheating boyfriends about once a week. Here is the latest one. [snip]


Since you get asked for so much advice, I wonder if you should start doing follow-ups and keeping statistics on recidivism rates, etc. You could then offer unique counsel to your lovelorn writers, providing them with the precise conditional probabilities their partners will stray based on historical data and their specific situations. You did say you were looking for new projects. (I'm mostly joking, but I bet a solid model for statistical relationship evaluation could be sold to a website like chemistry.com.)
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Wizard
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September 8th, 2010 at 5:09:18 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Follow the advice of the earlier poster-try to pick up a new guy at the computer or engeneering department. Smarter guys usually have interests outside getting as much action as possible.



Agreed 100%! Unfortunately, said guys are usually the ones women pay the least attention to. I speak with a fair bit of authority there.

Regarding those who disagree with my advice, I think you have to consider who was asking for it. As was noted already, she sounds like the type who likes bad boys, and anybody she finds attractive is likely to cheat on her anyway. Bad boys can afford to, because there will always be a hundred other girls who want them. I think the practical course of action is to accept a certain amount of it if the guy otherwise treats her well. Hopefully she will mature and develop better taste in men down the road.

About keeping statistics, I very seldom hear back when I answer, not even a thank you. I think a good litmus test for a good guy is how well he treats animals.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
AZDuffman
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September 8th, 2010 at 5:33:08 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Agreed 100%! Unfortunately, said guys are usually the ones women pay the least attention to. I speak with a fair bit of authority there.



Sadly as do I, and several other people here I would wager.

There used to be a website caller "girls with glasses" for guys who liked that Sarah-Palin look. Not porn or anything close to it, just regular women with glasses. Where are the women who like that in a guy?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
CrappedOut
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September 8th, 2010 at 6:14:24 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Check out the prospects in the computer lab at the Engineering school.



She wants a lover, husband, and father of her children, not a companion to attend the Star Trek Convention with!
NicksGamingStuff
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September 8th, 2010 at 7:02:08 PM permalink
I caught my spouse two times sending nude pix of himself to people on the internet, the first time I was really upset and he promised me he would never do it again. Six months go by and I catch him doing it again! Were married so it's not a simple breakup. I don't want to get divorced, but I find it really hard to trust him now, I am a bit worried about what hes doing while I am at work.
mrfoster23
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September 11th, 2010 at 1:50:39 PM permalink
Thank you for your advice! Its been a few days without contact and I'm trying to figure things out for myself before dealing with him anymore. He actually is not a bad boy. Well...on the outside. We're both music majors, he plays the trumpet, went to an all boys prep school and seems like a well-rounded intelligent person. We were also friends for a year and a half before we even started dating and this side of him never came out. I wonder if that changes your opinion at all? I know asking for this advice I must seem like a very idiotic child but, I'm really just confused. I've always been the type of girl who said if she was ever cheated on, I would leave in an instant. Being in the situation has proved that my tough talk is more difficult to put into action than I thought.

Quote: Wizard

I continue to get requests for advice on allegedly cheating boyfriends about once a week. Here is the latest one. I'll give her the URL, if any of you would like to add your two cents.



My response:

It could have been worse, had you been dating Joran van der Sloot, who is not big on women touching his computer.

FYI, your boyfriend was probably cheating the first summer too. Most young men are going to find it very difficult to go a whole summer without any nookie. If you can't accept that, then you should date guys like me, who take six months to get to second base, but I digress. If he is otherwise a good guy I'd stick with him. File this under youthful indiscretions, and don't leave him alone for three months at a time any longer.

mkl654321
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September 11th, 2010 at 3:12:05 PM permalink
The guy's a faithless horndog, yet you want to get him into a situation where he will only have one sexual partner (i.e., you)?? Do you REALLY think that he's never going to cheat on you again? And if cheating is something you "will not tolerate", then why are you tolerating it by continuing to think about a realtionship with him?

You KNOW all this, of course. You're just trying to talk yourself out of it. To that end, no advice anyone can offer you will be of any use--you won't listen to it. So you'll have to be like the child told not to touch the hot stove:

1. Sure, he'll marry you. Why not have a free live-in maid and cook?
2. Having sex with the same person is so BORING. He'll continue to bonk other women, including during your honeymoon and when you're nursing your child.
3. That child will be a bother to him, in the same way that it was a bother to him to use birth control.
4. Pretty soon, the baby will get on his nerves, and he'll find out a way to get free meals and sex elsewhere. He'll be gone for days at a time, coming home when he needs some money.
5. One day not long after that, he'll split for good.
6. You'll never find him even if you DO get court-ordered child support.

This is as inevitable as sunrise and sunset. Nothing I, we, or anyone else can say will alter it,
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
annaj10
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September 11th, 2010 at 4:52:15 PM permalink
It’s been my experience that women and men experience “love” very differently. For myself, and most of the women I know, love is something like an addiction. Early on, there is a physical need to be around your beloved, likely induced by biological tendencies. This is accompanied by a strong urge to respect and care for your partner, sadly, sometimes, even to your own detriment. In time, the physical need fades somewhat but women who love their partners continue to respect and care for them.

For men, love seems to be less a physical response but characterized more as “a willingness to obligate” themselves to an individual. Of course we all know of male physical responses and urges but sharing those urges with their partner, generally, to me, has little to do with whether or not they love their mate.

By “willingness to obligate” I mean that they choose to divide their resources - time, money, and energy between themselves and you and later, your offspring. If the person you are with is not willing to do that, then most likely, that person is not “The One”. Women seem to debate with themselves a lot about the meaning of things that men do, but generally, they’re much more direct than what we give them credit for. If he wants to be with you, he will be with you. He will obligate himself to you by:

1. being sexually faithful (however you choose as a couple to define that (i.e. no looking, no flirting, no strip clubs, no sex, everyone has different boundaries on what they find acceptable.))
2. being transparent in the relationship. This means that he will be open and honest with you about his activities (whether on the computer or otherwise), and not just related to sex. He will be open about his financial situation, he’ll tell you if he decides to go out with his friends, he should be willing to communicate with you if something is wrong. He shouldn’t sneak around and hide things from you.

From what you’ve described, your boyfriend isn’t ready to do those things. He may not be a jerk and he may not be trying to hurt you, he’s just not ready to settle into a serious relationship. If that’s what you’re looking for, then you need to look for a different partner who is willing to do that. The alternative is to wait for your current boyfriend to choose you, which hurtful as it sounds, may never happen. He may never choose to really love anyone, some men (and women) don’t.

Also, as many others have said, you are still relatively young. Relationships are like anything in life, to be good at them, it takes practice. Even if it doesn't work out between you and this man, you will have learned something and likely, your next relationship will be better than the last because you know more about what you want from your partner. Good luck and best wishes to you.
FleaStiff
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September 11th, 2010 at 5:08:15 PM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

I caught my spouse two times. ... I am a bit worried about what hes doing while I am at work.


Well, since those two times you caught him were six months apart, I guess he really doesn't have all that much to worry about from you. What is he doing? As much as he can get away with!
AZDuffman
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September 12th, 2010 at 5:00:46 AM permalink
Quote: mrfoster23

Thank you for your advice! Its been a few days without contact and I'm trying to figure things out for myself before dealing with him anymore. He actually is not a bad boy. Well...on the outside. We're both music majors, he plays the trumpet, went to an all boys prep school and seems like a well-rounded intelligent person. We were also friends for a year and a half before we even started dating and this side of him never came out. I wonder if that changes your opinion at all? I know asking for this advice I must seem like a very idiotic child but, I'm really just confused. I've always been the type of girl who said if she was ever cheated on, I would leave in an instant. Being in the situation has proved that my tough talk is more difficult to put into action than I thought.



Doesn't really change my opinion much. Intelligence and major are not really indicators of if people will cheat or not. But his behavior shows how he is. Let me give an example from the business world. When I was in management trianing I was taught how to interview people. The biggest thing that was hammered into my head was, "past behavior indicates future behavior." So if you looked at an application and the person had a history of changing jobs after about 18 months that person could be counted on to stay about 18 months before they quit. If the person tried to start a union somewhere else they worked they would try to start one at your place, etc. So my simple advice is if he is cheating already, he will keep cheating."

Once at work the conversation of marrige came up and I made the statement, "take two years to try before you buy" when someone was talking about getting married soon after meeting someone. Being the only male on the team I was of course called "unromantic." My boss's boss said, "but what if you just know it is the person?" My response, "who gets married w/o thinking that?"

You wisely tried before you bought. But at the moment you are like a person who leased a car for a year, was back to the service department 10 times, yes say, "it keeps breaking down, but they styling is so adorable I want to buy it out." Then you become customer of the year as the car keeps breaking down.

Thus if you decide you want to keep this guy, be prepared for him to keep cheating. After you are married perhaps be prepared for a visit from a process-server involving a paternity lawsuit. Cheaters are rarely concerned about unplanned pregnacy and STDs.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
boymimbo
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September 12th, 2010 at 6:51:09 AM permalink
Great feedback here from a number of posters. This site has grown with lots of interesting responses.

Having an engineering or physical sciences degree or being intelligent has no bearing on the ability to be faithful. If anything, the intelligent might think of smarter ways of being unfaithful. Moreover, I find that scientists and those of that ilk sometimes lack the moral fiber to be faithful. Once they get over their geekiness and get the confidence to realize how they can get "past second base", they will try to "get past second base" with as many women as possible, married or not, because they missed out on all of the opportunities to hit on all of the hot arts students while they were in college because they were too busy studying. Anyway, I'm a faithful one of those, but I see plenty of intelligent people do the wrong thing because they think they're smart enough to get away with it.

My opinion is that if you cheat and get let off for it, you'll probably cheat again as there is no repercussion for your behavior. So dump him and move on to someone who will treat you right and be faithful.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
boymimbo
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September 12th, 2010 at 7:08:44 AM permalink
Quote: annaj10

He will obligate himself to you by:

1. being sexually faithful (however you choose as a couple to define that (i.e. no looking, no flirting, no strip clubs, no sex, everyone has different boundaries on what they find acceptable.))
2. being transparent in the relationship. This means that he will be open and honest with you about his activities (whether on the computer or otherwise), and not just related to sex. He will be open about his financial situation, he’ll tell you if he decides to go out with his friends, he should be willing to communicate with you if something is wrong. He shouldn’t sneak around and hide things from you.



Yikes. With respect to being faithful, both women and men need to realize that forces far greater than society are working against marriage. No looking is impossible. Us men are are just wired to look. There is temptation everywhere. Men and women typically spend many more meaningful hours together at work than they do at home, especially when there are children involved or you do shift work. Couples get into a routine. Both women and men want romance and sex in their lives and after a number of years of being together, opportunities for those types of excitement often become available.

For me, getting involved with another person means the destruction of years of being together with someone I really really care about. It solves nothing and just creates hardship, and even if you continue a relationship with another person, you have to realize that the problems that present itself after being together will re-represent themselves because you haven't changed. In my opinion, you have to solve the issues within your marriage first before creating issues through cheating.

I don't know that being transparent is a form of "obligating".
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
annaj10
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September 12th, 2010 at 5:36:12 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Yikes. With respect to being faithful, both women and men need to realize that forces far greater than society are working against marriage. No looking is impossible. Us men are are just wired to look.



Hahaha! I agree with you that "no looking" is impossible for the average guy! What I wrote is not necessarily how I feel personally. I wouldn't offer my own feelings about that on this forum. My point was that everyone has a different definition of being faithful. (Please, let's not start a debate about that! It will never be resolved!) The girl in the original post needs to decide what is acceptable to her. Someone who is genuinely interested in a serious relationship with her would at least make an effort to respect that. I wanted to let her know that having certain expectations from a partner is okay and healthy.
Wizard
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Wizard
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September 12th, 2010 at 8:56:51 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Having an engineering or physical sciences degree or being intelligent has no bearing on the ability to be faithful.



Do you have anything other than anecodtal evidence to back that up?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
mkl654321
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September 12th, 2010 at 9:17:05 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Do you have anything other than anecodtal evidence to back that up?



I would say that anyone who has earned a college degree has a high degree of persistence and commitment: two qualities that also suggest that such a person will be more inclined to sustain and commit to a relationship.

Likewise, intelligence--admittedly, in the broad sense of overall intelligence--would make it more likely that a person would perceive his mate's feelings, would make better-informed decisions (particularly, forgoing temporary pleasure (an affair) for the sake of longer-term gain (a stable, long-lasting relationship)), and would be more cognizant of the consequences of his actions.

In other words, smart people do fewer stupid things than stupid people. This statement presumes that being unfaithful is stupid. I would contend that that is largely true. If one doesn't like one's mate any more, then severing the relationship is better than being unfaithful to it.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Wizard
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September 12th, 2010 at 9:32:35 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

I would say that anyone who has earned a college degree has a high degree of persistence and commitment: two qualities that also suggest that such a person will be more inclined to sustain and commit to a relationship.

Likewise, intelligence--admittedly, in the broad sense of overall intelligence--would make it more likely that a person would perceive his mate's feelings, would make better-informed decisions (particularly, forgoing temporary pleasure (an affair) for the sake of longer-term gain (a stable, long-lasting relationship)), and would be more cognizant of the consequences of his actions.



I agree 100%.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
AQT4U2XO
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September 19th, 2010 at 7:50:46 PM permalink
Hello there Wizard and fellow forum members...

I have been a huge fan of the wizard of odds website for many years after learning about the site from the Casinomeister, which I have been a long time member of for many years now. I Googled a question with the keywords "cheating boyfriend" and was a little surprised to see that the link I clicked on (which btw, ranked #1 in the search results...) was on the wizard of odds website! Baffled, I thought to myself, "Huh?? What does this topic have to do with gambling?" Intrigued, I proceeded to read the questions posted by women seeking advice on what to do about a cheating or suspected of cheating boyfriend but was even more intrigued by the advice and opinions of the Wizard because they were surprisingly insightful and spot-on. Many times, when women ask questions of this nature, they don't really want to hear the truth and so they might not be prepared for the given answer,(especially if it's brutally honest and bears the truth) nor may it be the answer they were expecting. Oftentimes, women ask for advice in this department, yet; do not always heed the advice given. Knowing for myself, how accurate the wizard is with the odds in casino games and betting, then reading how honest and truthful his answers and advice are, no matter how painful, I would have to agree with his ideas and beliefs and feel they are accurate as well as precise. Therefore, I trust in his opinion and ability to offer sound advice that would benefit the seeker if put to use and have come to the conclusion that one can obtain an objective, unbiased opinion and/or advice from the wizard that, even if the seeker does not heed, can gather from it, useful and valuable information to supplement towards the consideration of their final decision. I certainly trust in his ability to provide sound advice and useful answers to questions I have on the subject and would like to post my own question seeking the opinion and advice of the Wizard as well as other fellow forum members, however, I don't see a place to post my own question, only to reply to the question asked by the original poster of this thread. Do I start my own thread in the "advice" section with the same title? or just ask my own question here in the "cheating boyfriends" thread that the Wizard has already started? I apologize for my ignorance, but this is my first post and I am not sure of the forum protocol or etiquette. Please advise.
The only lawsuits I regret, are the ones I DIDN'T file!
Wizard
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September 19th, 2010 at 8:03:57 PM permalink
Thanks for the kind words. Who would have thought I would become known as anybody of authority on the topic of cheating boyfriends. Out of curiosity, I Googled "cheating boyfriends" and I'm #7.

To answer your question, go to the main forum page, click on the most appropriate topic, and then click on "new thread."
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
boymimbo
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September 19th, 2010 at 9:26:13 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I agree 100%.



Nonsense. Einstein was a cheater. Just because you are smart or have a college degree doesn't mean that you are less likely to cheat.

For me, cheating is a function of one's character, not a function of how smart you are. Having a degree in the physical sciences doesn't make you a sensitive person and certainly an engineering degree doesn't teach one the difference between right and wrong when it comes to matter of the heart. Just because you have specialized knowledge in Astronomy and Physics (my degree) doesn't mean that you are less likely to be unfaithful.

I've had friends in all walks of life who have cheated or have been cheated on. Some have college degrees and others don't.

In my mind, normal people with normal every day jobs have many many "temptations" in their life. They may not be happy in their own marriage and not have the courage to get out so they cheat. People think they're smart enough not to be caught. Others are just too horny. Others think that they will be forgiven. Others get caught up in their own power and the feeling that they get when they "fall in love". People don't think through the consequences of their actions in the moment. It's about insecurity in their own relationship. It can be about control, or boredom.

So I maintain that having a college education will not decrease the odds that one will cheat or be unfaithful. There was an interesting study done in the 2000s that concluded that men who make much less income than their mate were much more likely to cheat, yet women who make must less income to their mate were much less likely to cheat. The conclusion was that making less money than their mate led to having their masculinity feel threatened.

Another study from the University of New Hampshire said that men who were college educated were 3 percent less likely to cheat than their non-educated counterparts while women had no difference. Unhappiness is actually the biggest factor (13 percent higher for men, 10 percent higher than femailes) as well as age.

Just because you're intelligent doesn't mean you're smart when it comes to matters of the heart.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
mkl654321
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September 19th, 2010 at 9:41:19 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Nonsense. Einstein was a cheater.



Well then, that proves it!
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Wizard
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September 19th, 2010 at 9:47:56 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

So I maintain that having a college education will not decrease the odds that one will cheat or be unfaithful. There was an interesting study done in the 2000s that concluded that men who make much less income than their mate were much more likely to cheat, yet women who make must less income to their mate were much less likely to cheat. The conclusion was that making less money than their mate led to having their masculinity feel threatened.

Another study from the University of New Hampshire said that men who were college educated were 3 percent less likely to cheat than their non-educated counterparts while women had no difference. Unhappiness is actually the biggest factor (13 percent higher for men, 10 percent higher than femailes) as well as age.



You are the one making the claim that in increase in education is not correlated with a decrease in the probability of cheating. I'm still awaiting the evidence to back that up. The two studies you declined to name actually favor the opposite.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Calder
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September 19th, 2010 at 10:52:45 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Likewise, intelligence--admittedly, in the broad sense of overall intelligence--would make it more likely that a person would perceive his mate's feelings, would make better-informed decisions (particularly, forgoing temporary pleasure (an affair) for the sake of longer-term gain (a stable, long-lasting relationship)), and would be more cognizant of the consequences of his actions.


I'm just not convinced that all of those virtues spring naturally (or any more frequently) from intelligence. Certainly smarter people have the cognitive tools to make rational decisions, but do you think that intelligence implies impulse control?

I'm afraid I can't cite any studies, but I wonder if we don't underestimate the human sex drive in that regard. We've all heard of intelligent people who have done stupid, seemingly irrational things -- one of them used to be president. Anecdotal, to be sure, but the intelligent person can just as easily calculate a cost / benefit analysis, and figure he can get away with it.
mkl654321
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September 19th, 2010 at 11:18:36 PM permalink
Quote: Calder

I'm just not convinced that all of those virtues spring naturally (or any more frequently) from intelligence. Certainly smarter people have the cognitive tools to make rational decisions, but do you think that intelligence implies impulse control?

I'm afraid I can't cite any studies, but I wonder if we don't underestimate the human sex drive in that regard. We've all heard of intelligent people who have done stupid, seemingly irrational things -- one of them used to be president. Anecdotal, to be sure, but the intelligent person can just as easily calculate a cost / benefit analysis, and figure he can get away with it.



The fact that intelligent people do stupid things does not contradict the assertion that intelligent people are less likely than others to do those stupid things.

What you term "impulse control" is, in fact, directly correlated to intelligence. Being able to perceive the consequences of your actions makes it more likely than you will NOT take actions that will bring adverse consequences. Certainly, even an intelligent person's judgment will fail at times, but he'll have a better chance of making the proper decision if he can see the road ahead, versus someone who has no idea what the consequences of his actions may be.

Also, if an intelligent person figures he "can get away with it", then that's part of that cost/benefit analysis. I would point you toward two simple facts: criminals have a higher average intelligence than the general population, and most crimes are never even prosecuted, let alone solved.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
boymimbo
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September 20th, 2010 at 4:22:49 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

You are the one making the claim that in increase in education is not correlated with a decrease in the probability of cheating. I'm still awaiting the evidence to back that up. The two studies you declined to name actually favor the opposite.



Perhaps educated people are more likely to "underreport" for reasonable fears that their answer will come back to bite them in the behind.

The UNH study puts unhappiness and age well ahead of education. 3 percent less likely is hardly builds a strong correlation between education and unfaithfulness. I think what I am trying to say is that there is NO study that concludes that there is a strong relationship between education and unfaithfulness.

What I am also trying to say is that intelligent people are more likely to do a more accurate cost-benefit analysis of the consequences of cheating. They also believe that they are smarter and get away with things because they can think through hiding their affairs and are more likely to be able to hide the evidence (use a pay as you go phone, delete your internet cache, have a work email account). Intelligent men also generally have more opportunity because they are in power (attracts women), have more free time (time), can use work as an excuse for being away from the home (because they are more likely in demand), travel (more time and opportunity), and network (more opportunities). The fact that educated people make in general far more money gives men far more power and therefore are more attractive to women (like it or not, women like rich men) and therefore have more opportunity.

Just because you have a college degree doesn't make it any more likely that a man will be any less of a louse.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Wizard
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September 20th, 2010 at 7:31:17 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

I would point you toward two simple facts: criminals have a higher average intelligence than the general population.



Can you back that up with some evidence, please.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Calder
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September 20th, 2010 at 10:08:14 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

What you term "impulse control" is, in fact, directly correlated to intelligence. Being able to perceive the consequences of your actions makes it more likely than you will NOT take actions that will bring adverse consequences. Certainly, even an intelligent person's judgment will fail at times, but he'll have a better chance of making the proper decision if he can see the road ahead, versus someone who has no idea what the consequences of his actions may be.


The social sciences sure make for fun discussions, though few are ever resolved. Like so many things, it depends on definitions.

Quote:

Also, if an intelligent person figures he "can get away with it", then that's part of that cost/benefit analysis.


We both cite this, but for opposite reasons. I think intelligence and impulse control have little to do with each other. If the intelligent person does a cost / benefit analysis before deciding whether to cheat, he's by my reckoning not impulsive to begin with. He's reigning in his sex drive, not controlling his impulses. I suspect we just don't agree on that distinction.

Quote:

I would point you toward two simple facts: criminals have a higher average intelligence than the general population, and most crimes are never even prosecuted, let alone solved.


I don't know where you get this, and we may be straying from the cheating theme. Relative intelligence aside (and I don't concede that point), rates of prosecution and clearance are affected by a wide array of factors, few having to do with the bad guys' I.Q. The clearance rate for burglaries usually hovers around 15%, but I don't think that means that the police are constantly outwitted by Ivy League mopes.
mkl654321
mkl654321
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September 20th, 2010 at 10:26:01 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Can you back that up with some evidence, please.



I'm really not inclined to go digging (I have too many other things to do today), but the data is there: most incarcerated felons are subjected to a battery of tests as part of their "placement" evaluations, and one of those tests is an intelligence test. Similarly, anyone who has ever been in the military has been tested this way, and most people in general have taken an SAT or other college-prep test.

Of course, any such evaluation would have to take into account whether we mean: incarcerated, convicted, accused, or plain ol' criminals. The population of incarcerated criminals has an overall LOWER IQ than the general population (an average of 92), but of course, you could argue that those are the ones who were dumb enough to get caught.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Calder
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September 20th, 2010 at 2:54:52 PM permalink
I'm missing something.

So the incarcerated population has a lower I.Q. than society at large. Who tested the non-incarcerated that brought the average I.Q. of the criminal population above that of the general population?
AQT4U2XO
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September 20th, 2010 at 3:12:13 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks for the kind words. Who would have thought I would become known as anybody of authority on the topic of cheating boyfriends. Out of curiosity, I Googled "cheating boyfriends" and I'm #7.

To answer your question, go to the main forum page, click on the most appropriate topic, and then click on "new thread."



You're very welcome :o)

Yes, who would've thought? how long have you been getting these types of questions? because I don't recall seeing this area of expertise on your site when I first begun visiting it some years ago... I'm just curious :o)

I'm sorry, I thought I said I googled a "Question" containing the key words "cheating" & "boyfriend" in the sentence. I didn't just google "cheating boyfriends" only. Sorry for the confusion ;o)

Before I posted the first time, I had already done what you have suggested... but cheating boyfriends already exists, should I title it something different? (also, "if" it were ok to post here, after clicking on "cheating boyfriends" there is no option to start a new thread, only an option to reply to the already existing question...) Again, I apologize for my ignorance, I'm really not as ignorant as I may appear! (hahaha)
The only lawsuits I regret, are the ones I DIDN'T file!
AQT4U2XO
AQT4U2XO
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September 20th, 2010 at 3:43:43 PM permalink
Just FYI... (I wasn't making it up! hahaha)


The only lawsuits I regret, are the ones I DIDN'T file!
Wizard
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September 20th, 2010 at 3:43:46 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

The population of incarcerated criminals has an overall LOWER IQ than the general population (an average of 92), but of course, you could argue that those are the ones who were dumb enough to get caught.



You would have to make that assumption to get the criminal average above the non-criminal average. I'd really be interested in how this testing of non-captured criminals was done, when you get around to the digging. Meanwhile, I will file this with your claim that the payroll tax would have to go up to 47.5% to save Social Security.

Quote: AQT4U2XO

Just FYI...



I'm honored!
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
AZDuffman
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September 20th, 2010 at 4:38:58 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

You would have to make that assumption to get the criminal average above the non-criminal average. I'd really be interested in how this testing of non-captured criminals was done, when you get around to the digging. Meanwhile, I will file this with your claim that the payroll tax would have to go up to 47.5% to save Social Security.



Thanks for that, Wiz. I needed that after a long monday!
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
AQT4U2XO
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September 20th, 2010 at 4:48:44 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I'm honored!




I feel honored for you! hahaha I'm surprised you didn't already know this...

OK, so I guess I will just do as you instructed and start a new thread with a different title. (although I'm not sure what to call it since it's along the same lines as "cheating boyfriends")Only I can't say for sure, I just suspect, but I'm not stupid (despite my previous posts apologizing for my ignorance! hahaha)
The only lawsuits I regret, are the ones I DIDN'T file!
Triplell
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September 20th, 2010 at 5:14:58 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Agreed 100%! Unfortunately, said guys are usually the ones women pay the least attention to. I speak with a fair bit of authority there.

Regarding those who disagree with my advice, I think you have to consider who was asking for it. As was noted already, she sounds like the type who likes bad boys, and anybody she finds attractive is likely to cheat on her anyway. Bad boys can afford to, because there will always be a hundred other girls who want them. I think the practical course of action is to accept a certain amount of it if the guy otherwise treats her well. Hopefully she will mature and develop better taste in men down the road.

About keeping statistics, I very seldom hear back when I answer, not even a thank you. I think a good litmus test for a good guy is how well he treats animals.



Um, I'm a Jr. in Computer Engineer. Although I would never cheat on my girlfriend(my last one cheated on me, yeah, heart breaking), I don't know if I could tolerate a girl who didn't put out at least once every two weeks or so with some standard deviation.

Regardless of the advice you give her, she is most likely going to miss him and try and get back with him after some point. If he has been cheating on her, he'll continue to date her, and continue to cheat on her. My reasoning is as follows:

This guy gets x amount of sex single.
This guy gets y amount of sex with this girl.
This girl gets z amount of sex with this guy.

x+z=y
mkl654321
mkl654321
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September 20th, 2010 at 5:37:59 PM permalink
Quote: Calder

I'm missing something.

So the incarcerated population has a lower I.Q. than society at large. Who tested the non-incarcerated that brought the average I.Q. of the criminal population above that of the general population?



Most everybody has undergone some sort of intelligence test these days, at least by the time they graduate from high school (aka "academic achievement tests").
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
mkl654321
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September 20th, 2010 at 5:41:21 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Thanks for that, Wiz. I needed that after a long monday!



Why was that so satisfying for you? Was it because you and I often disagree, and you like to see me "taken down a peg", as it were? How petty!

You and I will never agree on a number of things, but I am not likely to take any satisfaction from a third party articulating HIS disagreement with you. Unless, of course, my Mondays suck even worse than yours apparently do.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
chook
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September 20th, 2010 at 5:54:23 PM permalink
Quote: AQT4U2XO

I feel honored for you! hahaha I'm surprised you didn't already know this...

OK, so I guess I will just do as you instructed and start a new thread with a different title. (although I'm not sure what to call it since it's along the same lines as "cheating boyfriends")Only I can't say for sure, I just suspect, but I'm not stupid (despite my previous posts apologizing for my ignorance! hahaha)



The Wizard may have to branch out, into a new career, like Sarah Beeny.
You can't trust a dog to mind your food.
mkl654321
mkl654321
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September 20th, 2010 at 6:03:09 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

You would have to make that assumption to get the criminal average above the non-criminal average. I'd really be interested in how this testing of non-captured criminals was done, when you get around to the digging. Meanwhile, I will file this with your claim that the payroll tax would have to go up to 47.5% to save Social Security.



Non-INCARCERATED criminals, actually, would be the other subgroup.

I assume that the file that you refer to is labeled "Ideas With Which I Disagree, and Therefore Need Hard Documented Supporting Evidence"? And how DO you fit all that on a garbage can?
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Wizard
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Wizard
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September 20th, 2010 at 6:11:55 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Non-INCARCERATED criminals, actually, would be the other subgroup.



Fine. I shall await patiently the results of your digging on the average IQ of this group. The most trouble I have had with the law is minor traffic violations, and just four of them in 25 years of driving. So I don't know much about what happens with non-incarcerated criminals. Now maybe I'm wrong, but somehow I don't picture a judge saying, "I'll let you off this time, just as long as you take this IQ test."

Quote: mkl654321

I assume that the file that you refer to is labeled "Ideas With Which I Disagree, and Therefore Need Hard Documented Supporting Evidence"? And how DO you fit all that on a garbage can?



Yes, that is pretty much the case. Very astute, and funny, observation.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Calder
Calder
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September 21st, 2010 at 1:30:19 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Most everybody has undergone some sort of intelligence test these days, at least by the time they graduate from high school (aka "academic achievement tests").


Okay, but that doesn't address the point.

Quote: mkl654321

The population of incarcerated criminals has an overall LOWER IQ than the general population (an average of 92), but of course, you could argue that those are the ones who were dumb enough to get caught.


You still need some above-average criminals to get that averge I.Q. above everyone else's. So the smart ones that didn't get caught identified themselves as criminals when taking their I.Q. tests?
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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September 26th, 2010 at 12:27:15 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Here is the latest "cheating boyfriend" question I received by e-mail.

{text of question deleted.}



I really sometimes wonder if letters like this are real. But then I figure no intelligent person could write this bad if they tried. The question is not "is he cheating on you" but rather "how many women is he cheating on you with?" To that I would guess at least 4.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Chuck
Chuck
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September 26th, 2010 at 12:45:36 PM permalink
Quote:

{text of question deleted.}



If he never mentioned baby mama, how does she know about it? Baby mama may just be stirring up trouble.

Additionally, I submit that if (the one asking) has never even met (the alleged cheater) in the flesh, but has only been "communicating" (and I doubt she is capable of using that word as a euphemism) with him on the astrology message board, then he cannot have cheated on her. He may be lying to her, but not cheating.
FleaStiff
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September 26th, 2010 at 1:11:37 PM permalink
Quote: Chuck

I submit that if she has never even met him in the flesh, but has only been "communicating" with him on the astrology message board, then he cannot have cheated on her. He may be lying to her, but not cheating.


Nope. He is cheating on her.
Some clues: Use of the term 'baby mama'. Use of phrase 'back home' to indicate he is no longer living near Baby Mama but is instead near the woman who sent the original email. Inclusion of his birth date is to solicit gratuitous evidence of compatibility, not to indicate sole interaction has been via an astrology board.

Conclusion: He is in fact cheating on her, and probably on several others. She probably already knows this. The Remedial English class should be in a stroller-friendly location.
Chuck
Chuck
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September 26th, 2010 at 1:24:05 PM permalink
"astrology message board" was a joke. But many message boards (such as dating ones, I'd guess) include "birth dates" as public information. Or maybe she wanted Wizard to do a background check (or maybe already did one herself).

I'd still say it would take a pretty loose definition of "cheating" if they've never met and have only "communicated" for three months.
mkl654321
mkl654321
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September 26th, 2010 at 1:55:40 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Here is the latest "cheating boyfriend" question I received by e-mail.

My advice: You don't give me much to go on here, but I say the probability he is cheating is 80%. More importantly, I would recommend some remedial English classes.



That post serves as yet another reminder of why I'm an English teacher. The person who posted that almost certainly had SOME high school education, but it apparently had no effect. That's kind of frightening--I see it ALL the time in my classes. There is a subset--a good 20-30%--of high school students who lack even the most basic of English skills. It makes me want to seek out the elementary school and junior high teachers who promoted those students, and smack them over the head.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw

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