popeyego7
popeyego7
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August 16th, 2016 at 4:54:18 PM permalink
hi:

scenario: lots of promo chips.. the kind which the house takes whether you win or lose, but you keep if a tie. rules are that cash chips can be used to supplement the bet if desired. the question is: if you are dealt an excellent hand, such as as an 11 against a dealer's six, does it make sense to use a real "cash" chip for the double down portion of the bet, which you keep if you win, instead of the promo chip which will be taken after a win??? also, any other ideas for promo chip blackjack betting would be appreciated. thanks
charliepatrick
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August 16th, 2016 at 5:57:33 PM permalink
If you look at freebet Blackjack the principle is that sometimes you have a bet that only pays if you win (in your question a standoff means you get another chance, in freebet you don't). In that game you actually double for real money on soft totals against a six even though it reduces the value of your freebet this is offset by the expected profit on the real money bet. Thus you'd definitely double 11, besides you were probably only planning to take one card in any case.
Ibeatyouraces
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August 16th, 2016 at 8:06:36 PM permalink
Quote: popeyego7

hi:

scenario: lots of promo chips.. the kind which the house takes whether you win or lose, but you keep if a tie. rules are that cash chips can be used to supplement the bet if desired. the question is: if you are dealt an excellent hand, such as as an 11 against a dealer's six, does it make sense to use a real "cash" chip for the double down portion of the bet, which you keep if you win, instead of the promo chip which will be taken after a win??? also, any other ideas for promo chip blackjack betting would be appreciated. thanks


You're better off using these types of chips on the player bet in baccarat.
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ChesterDog
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August 16th, 2016 at 9:24:47 PM permalink
Quote: popeyego7

hi:

scenario: lots of promo chips.. the kind which the house takes whether you win or lose, but you keep if a tie. rules are that cash chips can be used to supplement the bet if desired. the question is: if you are dealt an excellent hand, such as as an 11 against a dealer's six, does it make sense to use a real "cash" chip for the double down portion of the bet, which you keep if you win, instead of the promo chip which will be taken after a win??? also, any other ideas for promo chip blackjack betting would be appreciated. thanks



This paper by James Grosjean should help. He uses the abbreviation "FS" for your type of chip, and he gives the value of the FS chip in various games and the blackjack strategy for their use.
popeyego7
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August 17th, 2016 at 7:58:59 AM permalink
Thank you
popeyego7
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August 17th, 2016 at 8:04:42 AM permalink
to me, it would seem that any situation where the odds swing in the player's favor (11 vs. a dealer 6, for example), should be handled by using a real chip for the second bet...
Romes
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August 17th, 2016 at 8:22:05 AM permalink
Quote: popeyego7

to me, it would seem that any situation where the odds swing in the player's favor (11 vs. a dealer 6, for example), should be handled by using a real chip for the second bet...

But why? Without actually diving in to the math, my thoughts off the top of my head are:

1) Isn't the Free Bet chip only worth about half it's value?
2) Isn't the goal to get as much value from the chip as possible?
3) Isn't 11v6 a massive favorite for the bet?

Given the 3 above, I would hold all of my free bet chips and play them exclusively in these scenarios, where I know they come with an advantage, earning me more than ~50% of their face value.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
popeyego7
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August 17th, 2016 at 8:42:31 AM permalink
I don't think they are ever worth more than about 50% of their value in blackjack. remember, after the promo chip is played, they take it. on a high odds hand, I think i'd rather bet with a chip that I keep after a win.. so, i'd be forfeiting 1 promo chip to win 2 "real" chips.. as opposed to getting 2 and forfeiting 2.
popeyego7
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August 17th, 2016 at 8:47:12 AM permalink
thank you
Ibeatyouraces
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August 17th, 2016 at 9:30:56 AM permalink
Again, you're better off betting them on player in baccarat.
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popeyego7
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August 17th, 2016 at 9:44:57 AM permalink
I guess i should learn how baccarat is played then. thanks
popeyego7
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August 17th, 2016 at 9:44:57 AM permalink
I guess i should learn how baccarat is played then. thanks
RS
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August 17th, 2016 at 9:47:47 AM permalink
Quote: popeyego7

I guess i should learn how baccarat is played then. thanks



It's a pretty difficult game. ;)
Romes
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August 17th, 2016 at 9:51:38 AM permalink
Quote: popeyego7

I guess i should learn how baccarat is played then. thanks

Put money on he player circle, wait for dealer to either pay or take. That's it. You don't actually do anything...

Quote: RS

It's a pretty difficult game. ;)

This guy is just a trouble maker!
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Ibeatyouraces
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August 17th, 2016 at 9:56:13 AM permalink
I took a screen shot of the page Chester linked to.



Here you can determine which is best for you at the location you have these chips at. I assume the bj game you were to use them on was H17, and why I recommend baccarat. TCP is also a better choice.
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Romes
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August 17th, 2016 at 9:57:36 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I took a screen shot of the page Romes linked to.

...
Here you can determine which is best for you at the location you have these chips at.

Chester linked the great article =).

Quote: ChesterDog

This paper by James Grosjean should help. He uses the abbreviation "FS" for your type of chip, and he gives the value of the FS chip in various games and the blackjack strategy for their use.

Credit where credit is due =P.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Ibeatyouraces
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August 17th, 2016 at 9:59:09 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Chester linked the great article =).

Quote: ChesterDog

This paper by James Grosjean should help. He uses the abbreviation "FS" for your type of chip, and he gives the value of the FS chip in various games and the blackjack strategy for their use.

Credit where credit is due =P.


Edited, thanks :-)
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Romes
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August 17th, 2016 at 10:02:41 AM permalink
Most places don't let you use any type of Free Play (paper or chips) on bets that get pushed back to you, such as the Ante bet in TCP. They force you to put it on the Play bet so it gets resolved. Otherwise you'd find more value in getting to play it more than once ;).
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Ibeatyouraces
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August 17th, 2016 at 10:05:36 AM permalink
Certainly. Never hurts to ask the dealer or floor though.
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Romes
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August 17th, 2016 at 10:10:20 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Certainly. Never hurts to ask the dealer or floor though.

I've had much better luck just playing it there and letting it go. You literally get mixed results pending deeler or floor that never seems consistent (this is at pretty much every casino I've ever been to with this).
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
popeyego7
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August 17th, 2016 at 10:12:51 AM permalink
thanks!! will be high limit table... so S17 i dont think tcp is an option.
popeyego7
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August 17th, 2016 at 10:17:20 AM permalink
ok thanks
Last edited by: popeyego7 on Aug 17, 2016
popeyego7
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August 18th, 2016 at 12:12:21 PM permalink
Grosjean says blackjack, with a promo chip saved on a tie bet, is better than bacarrat. will probably stick to blackjack. Can it be assumed that Grosjean's FS blackjack deviations' chart assumes the double or split bet is with a real chip, and not a second promo chip?
Ibeatyouraces
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August 18th, 2016 at 12:31:54 PM permalink
Quote: popeyego7

Grosjean says blackjack, with a promo chip saved on a tie bet, is better than bacarrat. will probably stick to blackjack. Can it be assumed that Grosjean's FS blackjack deviations' chart assumes the double or split bet is with a real chip, and not a second promo chip?


If your game is S17 and good rules, then that's the best option. The average player that gets them usually doesn't have that option and is stuck with H17 in which case baccarat is now the better choice.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
popeyego7
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August 18th, 2016 at 12:56:44 PM permalink
will be S17. Do you have an opinion on my Grosjean question? Thank you.
Ibeatyouraces
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August 18th, 2016 at 1:59:55 PM permalink
That I don't know.
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AxelWolf
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August 18th, 2016 at 2:20:52 PM permalink
Do you have to use them on even money bets? If not a single number on roulette might be the way to go.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Wizardofnothing
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August 18th, 2016 at 2:39:00 PM permalink
Single number roulette is usually not an option- some places will let you use them on odds I'm craps- this might be your best option if they allow it- one hint don't ask just do it let them tell you no
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
popeyego7
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August 18th, 2016 at 2:53:09 PM permalink
even money bets... rules are favkrable but no surrender... WIZARD: does your bj deviafion chart assume a cash chip cor double down and split? i'll have the option of either. thanks
Wizardofnothing
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August 18th, 2016 at 2:57:38 PM permalink
I don't think double down effects the overall ev on the play so would it matter weather it's promo chips or cash? Am I missing something
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
ChesterDog
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August 18th, 2016 at 9:26:25 PM permalink
Quote: popeyego7

even money bets... rules are favkrable but no surrender... WIZARD: does your bj deviafion chart assume a cash chip cor double down and split? i'll have the option of either. thanks



Suppose your initial bet is an FS chip and you get an 11. You want to know whether to double down with cash or with another FS chip. I'm surprised I couldn't find the answer to that important question in James Grosjean's paper. I think the answer is that you should double down with cash and not with FS chips. Here's an example--suppose, by mistake the dealer reveals his hole card to the players and he has 16, and you had bet a $10 FS chip and you have 11. If you doubled with cash you would probably be paid $20 but lose one $10 FS chip (worth about $5) for a net profit of about $15. But if you doubled with another $10 FS chip, you would probably be paid $20 but lose two FS chips for a net profit of about $10. I think all the valuable double downs of FS bets should be done with cash.
popeyego7
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August 19th, 2016 at 4:26:07 AM permalink
Yes!!!! Wiz and Grosjean say S for two eights against a 10 with promo chips... but, if split bet were also vwith promo chip than perhaps its a split situation and not an H. is the correct analysis: if odds better than 50% use real chip, if less than use promo? is there a chart that shows individual odds of winning for every dealt hand possibilty?
Last edited by: popeyego7 on Aug 19, 2016
Casinodepositor
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August 19th, 2016 at 4:43:31 AM permalink
Those promo chips are lures for you to keep on playing. Deposit more money and they will give you bigger bonus with a bigger WR. If you don't want a WR play with real money.
popeyego7
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August 19th, 2016 at 4:53:53 AM permalink
not a lure in my situation
popeyego7
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August 19th, 2016 at 8:10:29 PM permalink
Quote: ChesterDog

Suppose your initial bet is an FS chip and you get an 11. You want to know whether to double down with cash or with another FS chip. I'm surprised I couldn't find the answer to that important question in James Grosjean's paper. I think the answer is that you should double down with cash and not with FS chips. Here's an example--suppose, by mistake the dealer reveals his hole card to the players and he has 16, and you had bet a $10 FS chip and you have 11. If you doubled with cash you would probably be paid $20 but lose one $10 FS chip (worth about $5) for a net profit of about $15. But if you doubled with another $10 FS chip, you would probably be paid $20 but lose two FS chips for a net profit of about $10. I think all the valuable double downs of FS bets should be done with cash.





So, Chesterton, are you suggesting that any double down or split bet on wizard of odds' blackjack appendix 9 chart which shows a positive number should generate a real chip bet?
ChesterDog
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August 20th, 2016 at 6:03:58 AM permalink
Quote: popeyego7

So, Chesterton, are you suggesting that any double down or split bet on wizard of odds' blackjack appendix 9 chart which shows a positive number should generate a real chip bet?



For double downs, yes, I'm suggesting you double down your FS chip bet with cash if the EV for the double down is positive. I just now verified that with an infinite-deck blackjack spreadsheet--you wouldn't double with a promo chip for any of those positive EV soft or hard doubles. The Wizard of Odds has a page about promo chips, and the infinite-deck spreadsheet agrees with all his double downs.

I think our question about whether to double with cash or FS chips arises from most casinos' allowing only cash, and not more promo chips, for splits and double downs. So, the Wizard or James Grosjean don't even mention whether to double or split with cash or more promo chips.

By the way, the infinite-deck spreadsheet shows that if you may double down your FS chip only with another FS chip (and not cash), then the double downs would use regular basic strategy (no double A9, for example.)

I didn't verify the splits, yet.
ChesterDog
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August 20th, 2016 at 7:53:01 AM permalink
The strategy for splitting depends on whether the bet on the hand is a promo chip or cash. Also, it depends on the value of the promo chip. Below are my infinite-deck strategies for splitting (if splitting with an FS promo chip is allowed) the promo chip hand and the cash hand assuming a promo chip is worth about 0.5 of a cash chip.

CHIP HAND
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
A
10,10
CASH
CASH
CASH
9,9
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
fs
8,8
fs
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
fs
fs
fs
fs
7,7
fs
fs
fs
fs
CASH
fs
fs
6,6
fs
fs
fs
fs
fs
fs
5,5
4,4
fs
fs
CASH
3,3
fs
fs
fs
fs
CASH
fs
fs
2,2
fs
fs
fs
CASH
CASH
fs
fs
A,A
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH


CASH HAND
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
A
10,10
9,9
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
fs
fs
8,8
fs
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
fs
fs
fs
fs
7,7
fs
fs
fs
fs
CASH
fs
fs
fs
6,6
fs
fs
fs
fs
fs
fs
5,5
4,4
fs
CASH
3,3
fs
fs
fs
fs
CASH
fs
fs
2,2
fs
fs
fs
CASH
CASH
fs
fs
A,A
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
AxelWolf
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August 20th, 2016 at 8:04:34 AM permalink
Quote: Casinodepositor

Those promo chips are lures for you to keep on playing. Deposit more money and they will give you bigger bonus with a bigger WR. If you don't want a WR play with real money.

And back to the real topic at hand.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
popeyego7
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August 20th, 2016 at 10:08:46 AM permalink
Quote: ChesterDog

The strategy for splitting depends on whether the bet on the hand is a promo chip or cash. Also, it depends on the value of the promo chip. Below are my infinite-deck strategies for splitting (if splitting with an FS promo chip is allowed) the promo chip hand and the cash hand assuming a promo chip is worth about 0.5 of a cash chip.





CHIP HAND
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
A
10,10
CASH
CASH
CASH
9,9
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
fs
8,8
fs
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
fs
fs
fs
fs
7,7
fs
fs
fs
fs
CASH
fs
fs
6,6
fs
fs
fs
fs
fs
fs
5,5
4,4
fs
fs
CASH
3,3
fs
fs
fs
fs
CASH
fs
fs
2,2
fs
fs
fs
CASH
CASH
fs
fs
A,A
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH


CASH HAND
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
A
10,10
9,9
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
fs
fs
8,8
fs
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
fs
fs
fs
fs
7,7
fs
fs
fs
fs
CASH
fs
fs
fs
6,6
fs
fs
fs
fs
fs
fs
5,5
4,4
fs
CASH
3,3
fs
fs
fs
fs
CASH
fs
fs
2,2
fs
fs
fs
CASH
CASH
fs
fs
A,A
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH
CASH





will be tough to split tens but ya gotta do what ya gotta do.. thanks!!!!
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