Mistaken Dealer Payout

I sat down to play blackjack at a casino in Las Vegas, handing over $500 chip for change. The dealer gave me 5 $5 chips, thinking it was a $25; the pit boss was watching and caught it and corrected it (the chips were close in color). Which is no big deal.

The dealer was new and made some other mistakes, nothing substantive on the game but things like being cute in showing/not showing his down card when checking for blackjack, or putting a low-precentage hit face down. The pit boss talked to him (not-unheatedly) for a long time when his shift was over. It did not look fun.

At the end of our session, a friend playing with me received a payout that included -- you guessed it -- a $500 chip instead of a $25 (from a new dealer). We didn't find out until hours after we had left the table and went to the cashier. His instinct was to give it back to the pit boss; another friend's was to keep it; I did not know what to do. In the end, he donated $475 to a local children's charity.

What is the ethicial response? What should we have done?

I would take it home and add it to my dollar chip collection!

Quote: thufir

What is the ethicial response? What should we have done?

The most ethical response would have been to return the chip - probably talk to the pit boss as one friend suggested.

On the other hand, a casino that makes the $500 chip look enough like the $25 chip that at least two dealers get them confused probably "deserves" to lose out on this one. Donating to charity isn't a bad choice -- at least it should be good for your karma.

I also take the correct payout and expect a correct payout. For example, today, I was overpaid a 3 of a kind on 4 card by $40. I just left the payment out there while I waited for the dealer to double check it. The funny thing is that I probably could have gotten away with it pretty easily. The number of chips ($160 vs $120) is the same, with reds on top. The pit boss noticed fairly quickly and I said, "I'm leaving it out here for a reason". No remark by the pit boss or compliment for my honestly as I could have easily grabbed the extra $40 and got away it.

My feeling is that you've got to be ethical at the tables. The only time that I take money is when I don't notice the overpayment and it's already in my tray.

Although I can't blame anyone if they kept it, you totally did the right thing.

So where's this casino with the confusing chips? :)

I say always do the right thing! Today my check was for $15 for a pitcher of Sangria, I paid with a $20 and was given $15 in change, I gave the $10 back its the right thing to do, do you really want the poor sucker to lose their job/get in trouble for a "simple" mistake? I of all people could use $475, hell thats 2 weeks of pay for me :-p I did once let a dealer mistake "ride" I was playing big 6 at the venetian and the dealer forgot to take of my $2 bet on the 40 so I put another $2 down on another square and just let the bet ride which of course lost! I figured the casino was going to get the money back anyway and I had taken a bad enough beating that day I deserved to enjoy seeing the wheel spin around again. I played a suckers game and I got a suckers results! Woo go big 6, high house edge high house fun seeing the wheel spin!

I say give it back. The pit boss would probably be very grateful. Its good ethics and good karma. sometimes mistakes happen in the players favour, and sometimes in the house's favour. If the mistake favoured the house you would expect it to be corrected, so I think it should work both ways.

I had the same thing happen to me playing the Big 6 at Harrah's St. Louis. This was probably a year ago, and the wheel was opposite a stage where half naked girls danced. So the dealer was not too focused on the big 6. He left my 40-1 logo bet out there an extra spin, and guess what happened on the next spin? Logo! I gave him his tip and got the hell out of there.

I usually don't correct dealer mistakes that are in my favor. I play pai gow poker a lot, so they happen often. But it definitely depends on how friendly the dealer is.

BUT, what I hate, is when other players will correct a dealer mistake in my favor. For example, if I'm supposed to lose a pai gow hand, and the dealer pushes me, and some guy at the end yells, "No, he lost, take his money" That usually ends up in a fight...

Man. My first thought is to give it back; that's me. I wouldn't fault anyone who kept it, but my first thought is to give it back.

But, the dealer is going to be in trouble anyhow over that one, you know. So, I think my answer depends on when I caught it. At the table? I give it back. 15 minutes later at the cashier? That chip is mine.

Quote: Mosca

...So, I think my answer depends on when I caught it. At the table? I give it back. 15 minutes later at the cashier? That chip is mine.

this is my thinking too.

I think $475 is too much to just pocket, no matter whose mistake. In AC at blackjack tables, most of the time there is a clear plastic guard around the 500s/1000s so that type of thing can't happen. Why would the 25s be near the 500s? The pit boss is almost more to blame than the dealer; he's supposed to review all cash outs, and should have noticed the purple missing immediately. Very weird. But for honesty's sake and because I wouldn't want the house thinking I was colluding (people get arrested for less than $475 in a casino), I'd return to the pit right away.

You are playing with a tough crowd. I'll take a pass on explaining how pristine my ethics are with regard to my own bankroll, but with other people at the table, I will always point out a mistake in the player's favor if I notice it, but never one in the house's favor.

The one place I would be most likely to miss a house error entirely is in craps. The dealer's mental math skills usually far outpace my own.

While I think your friend did a good thing donating the $475 to charity, the right thing to do would be to return the money.

there are a few variables to take into account in this situation. taking advantage of dealer errors is just another tool in an advantage player's arsenal. typically most errors that are in your favor will be camouflaged from other player's wagers. if there was heavy action from other players at the table, i would take the chip without a second thought. i doubt that is the case here though and you dont want to cost someone his job nor bring any heat onto yourself.

I wonders, is it the amount that's giving people trouble here?

For example, if the dealer gave your friend a $25 chip instead of a $5 chip, would people just say, "Oh well, it's only $20 bucks, let's get a couple of extra beers!"

But because it's a $475 mistake, a man's job may be at stake.

What if we take it to another extreme and make the dealer mispay a $10,000 chip instead of a $100 chip. Yes, I know it would be next to impossible to cash at the casino cage, but assuming you could, would you be dishonest and take the $9,900 profit?

The ultimate point that I am trying to make is that honest is honest and right is right. If you are an honest and good person, you should do the honest and right thing, regardless of the amount.

its not the actual value of the chip that matters, its the relative value of the chip compared to other players' action at the table.

you do realize that most mistakes dealers will make will not be in your favor. dealers are human and are prone to make mistakes. its a game in of itself. correct dealers when they make errors not in your favor and dont correct them if theres a error in your favor if the circumstances permit it.

Quote: gambler

If you are an honest and good person, you should do the honest and right thing, regardless of the amount.

What if you are an honest and good casino? What are your obligations then? If the casino has a tarnished halo should a player sport only a shiny one?

Casinos deal to ignorant players, serve them liquor, often fail to advise obvious neophytes, offer bets without disclosure, play loud and distracting music, provide a generally festive atmosphere to induce carefree abondon as an aid to separating a player from his money ... and you want the player to don a polished halo and return a dealer error?

I'll go with the old saying that two wrongs don't make a right.

Casinos holds its employees quite responsible for its assets, mostly its cash. So, quite likely, that $500 error would have been caught and the employee severely reprimanded. There is a reason why the table stops and the dealer yells "2 Purple" going out.

Your obligations at a casino are simply to not do anything illegal or outside of the casino's rules. Your moral obligations are up to you, as are the personnel in the casino. If you are okay with taking a wrong payout that favors you, understand that you are putting the employee (an actual person) behind the table in jeopardy due to something that you could prevent.

In my opinion, accepting an overpay knowingly is stealing. Certainly, you would feel that you were stolen from if the casino underpaid you and refused to correct the error. Just because the casino holds millions of chips and you hold a few doesn't make it any different for either party.

Quote: boymimbo

If you are okay with taking a wrong payout that favors you, understand that you are putting the employee (an actual person) behind the table in jeopardy due to something that you could prevent.

Are you sure about that? What if it was a simple miscount, like paying a hand that should have lost? I've seen it several times where I had a straight or higher in Three Card Poker, and the dealer beat me. I believe that every single one of those times the dealer didn't give me an Ante bonus. When I challenged it to the floor, I of course won every time. At this point, the dealer would just shrug it off, and never make an apology. Still I wonder how many players who don't know the rules as well as I do were not paid in that situation. I'm not saying it is right to accept a mispay, but I also think that for whatever reason, a big majority of mispays go in the dealer's favor.

Quote: Wizard

When I challenged it to the floor...

Did you need to get the floor involved because the dealer thought you were wrong?

If so, I find that shocking, and possibly evidence of an unwritten guideline to cheat the customer. I.E. Maybe the dealer knew you were right, but was faking ignorance. I feel that a lack of an apology may confirm that.

If the dealer simply made a mistake, and had to call the floor because that's what you do when you correct a mistake, then it's not something alarming. And the lack of an apology is bad manners but nothing more.



So a question to the dealers out there:

If you realize you made a mistake in the house's favor, how likely are you to correct it if the player doesn't notice?

Mike,

What I am sure about is that errors that are caught by the pit will put the casino employee in some kind of jeopardy, and if surveillance is watching and understands the game, a significant error would probably be caught. Not being in casino management, I wonder what the tolerance is for errors.

What reason do you suppose mispays go more in the dealer's direction? There are some games where the rules are not simple, such as the Ante bonus in 3-card, or the payout multiples in craps. I actually think the errors are about 50/50 but have no evidence to collaborate. I mean, the dealer will generally get paid better if they provide better service to the players so a caught mistake in the house's favor will be negative to the players, while a caught mistake in the player's favor is negative to the dealer as well. So I would think that all errors should be avoided by the dealer.

That makes us look at how errors come to be. A simple mispay on a win happens in three ways: the payout is miscalculated; the wrong valued chips are given; or a win is not seen by player or dealer and is taken as a loss. A simple misplay on a loss happens in one way: the dealer misinterprets a loss as a win and pays the win.

It is highly unlikely that a mispay due to a false win or false loss would result in another error at the same time, so each error can be treated as a independent event. Wrong valued mispays in the player's favor probably happen as often as mispays in the dealer's favor (there is no reason to make an biased error since the payout error is a function of a bad hand movement or bad math, which can go either way). Since players are paying attention to their payout and roughly say two thirds of the players know the rules, it is likely that a wrong payout in the casino's favor would be caught more often than a wrong payout in the player's favor. Therefore I think that mispays resulting in the wrong payout favor the player due to dishonesty.

With respect to the false wins or false losses, since losses occur more often than wins, it's likely that more losses resulting in mispaid wins would be more commen. I think your specific example, three card poker, where the Ante pays even on a loss, might be a common error where the casino takes a false loss. I can't think of other examples where this might happen where a bonus bet might not be paid.

What do you think?

I still say that most scoring errors go in the dealer's favor. Why? I think ultimately the dealer's know what side they work for. Sure, they always say "It isn't my money." However, I'm sure they would prefer the company they work for to be profitable. I think that overrides the additional tips they get when the players win.

Furthermore, they know the players are going to protect their own interests. Meanwhile, most of the time there won't be an advocate for the dealer's errors, so they have to be more vigilant that way. From what I understand, surveillance is spread pretty thin, and only a small percentage of hands are watched with human eyes from above. I'm sure it isn't a spoken thing, but something that still plays an effect. Kind of like if your elderly mother is buying a used car, you wouldn't tag along to make sure the car salesman doesn't get cheated.

Finally, my opinion is based on my own experience. I don't keep a tally, but I think that about 3/4 of errors I've noticed went against me. I welcome others anecdotal estimates of the ratio of dealer scoring errors that go the dealer's way.

Per the question two posts back about calling the floor in the event of a dispute, that is common. Dealers are also supposed to notify the floor if they realize they made an error. In poker there are frequently disputes about string bets and such, in which case the "floor" is called.

Bumping the thread because this weekend I was buying in at Harrah's AC at their Craps table, and just because of some earlier purchases, I was buying in for $540...Ten 50s and 2 20s. The Boxman laid the money out in groups of 2, and the dealer slid me $600. I didn't think about this thread, or what I should do, or anything, I just said, "It's actually $540, not $600...and the box was like, "Oh....yeah, yeah...." Dealer took back the chips and that was that. When thinking about it later, I remembered how different players had different takes on what they would do on this site. What was funny was I didn't think at all about "Should I get the extra money? Should I just shut up?" When it came down to it, to me it wasn't even about the money...I just corrected the error. If he was giving me $480 I would have done the same thing. Though personally this feels different than a bet that gets paid more than it should.

If you do have no ethical dilemma about getting more than you pay for, perhaps you should buy in for an amount similar to the way I did.

Im sure I have said this somewhere else, in a nother thread maybe but for me it doesnt matter which way a mistake is made, it must always be corrected as here at least, all bets must be paid correctly and if a gaming comission auditor chose to view tapes and spotted a number of non isolated mistakes it could be bye bye license.

We also have internal company auditors that regularly check procedural adherence and general competence. To cover my ass, any mistake in anyones favour has to be reported higher up the chain, usually to an inspector (a person who ranks between a sealer and a pit boss) and then it is up to them to make a decision or to refer it upwards to the pit boss.

For cases involving small amounts eg the £2 minimum on blackjack, or a 50p chip or 2 on roulette it is generally let slide. More major errors are generally resolved by the Pit Boss asking for the erroneous amount to be returned. Failure by a customer to return the amount in question will be met by the player being escorted to the cash desk, cashed out, then promptly escorted off the premises and barred nationally from all group casinos. There is also the possibility of prosecution for theft.

On the other hand (and I have done this myself) If someone is underpaid it is refunded as soon as a mistake is noticed. If the customer has left, it is placed on credit in the cash desk to be picked up on their next visit. If they are not regular customers a letter is sent asking them to contact us, and they can come in to collect, or have a check posted.

I can see both sides of the arguament, but personally when I walk into a casino I know the odds are not in my favour. I accept this. I look to reduce the possible advantage by mathematical means (hence why I ended up on this site in the first place). I could not personally justify taking money given to me by mistake in a casino, because it could cost someone their job.

Thanks for the post Croupier. I was very interested to see what a dealer's perspective on this would be.

you can always try confusing dealers in craps into making mispays by laying uncommon amounts that are difficult to calculate. this is slightly more effective on the dont come than the dont pass and if the table is busy. this is not very effective if the point is a 4 or a 10.

Due to this thread, and other threads mentioning incorrect payouts too, I decided to pay much closer attention this past trip.
Within 2 hours, I had been incorrectly paid 3 times! It was all at the same table, but not sure if it was the same dealer every time.

First one. For the life of me, I cannot remember what the total bet was, but it was a made point. As I started to pick up the chips I realized the total amount was not right, so I set the chips back down and, without bringing my hand back to the rail, got the dealer's attention, and pointed to the payout. He looked at the box and then made the payout correct.

Second one. Again a made point, and the dealer paid the free odds correctly, but as he moved from paying my $10 PL bet, only 1 chip dropped, and not 2. I caught his attention as he was pulling away from the table, and he added the 2nd chip to my PL payout.

Third one. Come out roll was 11. My $10 PL bet got paid with a red chip on bottom and a green chip on top. AND THE DEALER, NOR THE BOX, NOTICED IT. Without making a big deal, I got the dealer's attention, and pointed to the payout. He thanked me, and swapped the green for a red. I was not watching, but I am pretty sure that was just a case of a green chip having been in the red stack, and no one had caught it

You've jogged my memory.

On my last trip, at a craps table, I was not paid for my place bet twice.


I don't bet the line if I'm not shooting, but I'll place it. On a side note, I don't understand other bettors that also don't bet the line, but then place all the numbers EXCEPT the point.

Anyway, the shooter hit the point, everyone got paid but me. When it was obvious that the dealer was done paying, and starting to take new bets, I point it out to her.

A few minutes later, the same shooter hit his number again, and again the same dealer forgot to pay me.


These were simple forgot to pay me errors.


Often, once I get my bets pressed up high, I get paid and have to do the mental math a couple times while looking at the chips. And, yeah, I've caught mistakes that way too....

Quote: DJTeddyBear

On a side note, I don't understand other bettors that also don't bet the line, but then place all the numbers EXCEPT the point...

Based on my observations, it has to do with those people (incorrectly) thinking that there's a mathematical reason that a number won't come up TWICE before a 7. It already came on the Come Out, so it won't come again, or it's at least less likely to come than the other numbers.

i never understand why people bet thinking something is due. if its a fair game, fair in the sense that the game operates in the way youd expect it to operate, then it doesnt make a difference which way you bet. but if theres something wrong with the mechanism that decides the outcome of the game youre playing such as the dice in this example, then youre only hurting yourself betting against it.

Not to totally derail this thread, but...

Quote: cclub79

Quote: DJTeddyBear

On a side note, I don't understand other bettors that also don't bet the line, but then place all the numbers EXCEPT the point...

Based on my observations, it has to do with those people (incorrectly) thinking that there's a mathematical reason that a number won't come up TWICE before a 7. It already came on the Come Out, so it won't come again, or it's at least less likely to come than the other numbers.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

But then why do these same people press their bet after it hits?
(No response needed. I'll just be over here, banging my head against the wall...)

Quote: rudeboyoi

you can always try confusing dealers in craps into making mispays by laying uncommon amounts that are difficult to calculate. this is slightly more effective on the dont come than the dont pass and if the table is busy. this is not very effective if the point is a 4 or a 10.

This is one of the things that really annoys me at the table. I'm sure we all know this type of player; he or she throws a $5 chip in, all the hard ways, $1 yo. Then hops the easy 8,9,10. Probably throws in a $1 crap check. Not to mention the $54 across, heavy 4 and 10. Then it takes 2 or 3 minutes for the dealers to figure out the payout after the easy nine rolls, and the player probably argues that they shorted him/her $1. This type of thing always seems to bring a good roll to an end.

Quote: Headlock

This is one of the things that really annoys me at the table. I'm sure we all know this type of player; he or she throws a $5 chip in, all the hard ways, $1 yo. Then hops the easy 8,9,10. Probably throws in a $1 crap check. Not to mention the $54 across, heavy 4 and 10. Then it takes 2 or 3 minutes for the dealers to figure out the payout after the easy nine rolls, and the player probably argues that they shorted him/her $1. This type of thing always seems to bring a good roll to an end.

HA! This guy and his 4 buddies showed up in Tunica for my 70 minute roll last year...... which is part of the reason the roll was 70 minutes. And yes, they were arguing over EVERY hopped bet payout.

I know it really doesn't affect the next roll, but it's convenient to blame this player when the shooter sevens out.

Quote: Headlock

This is one of the things that really annoys me at the table. I'm sure we all know this type of player; he or she throws a $5 chip in, all the hard ways, $1 yo. Then hops the easy 8,9,10. Probably throws in a $1 crap check. Not to mention the $54 across, heavy 4 and 10. Then it takes 2 or 3 minutes for the dealers to figure out the payout after the easy nine rolls, and the player probably argues that they shorted him/her $1. This type of thing always seems to bring a good roll to an end.

i have no idea how you interpreted what i said in this way. absolutely nothing you said here relates to what i said.

Players who intentionally make bets or combinations that are difficult to pay. Isn't that what you said?

Quote: Headlock

Players who intentionally make bets or combinations that are difficult to pay. Isn't that what you said?

no reread it again.

Quote: rudeboyoi

you can always try confusing dealers in craps into making mispays by laying uncommon amounts that are difficult to calculate. this is slightly more effective on the dont come than the dont pass and if the table is busy. this is not very effective if the point is a 4 or a 10.

Quote: Headlock

This is one of the things that really annoys me at the table. I'm sure we all know this type of player; he or she throws a $5 chip in, all the hard ways, $1 yo. Then hops the easy 8,9,10. Probably throws in a $1 crap check. Not to mention the $54 across, heavy 4 and 10. Then it takes 2 or 3 minutes for the dealers to figure out the payout after the easy nine rolls, and the player probably argues that they shorted him/her $1. This type of thing always seems to bring a good roll to an end.

these two plays have nothing to do with eachother. ones an advantage play on one bet that hardly slows the game down. because you only have to correct the dealer if he pays you less than what he should have. the other is a combination of stupid bets that must be paid in a certain order which takes time to do plus its with a player who probably isnt sure what hes supposed to get in the first place.

First I apologize for my poor etiquette. I am not experienced with online forums. Secondly, I rescind all my posts and apologize to all I have offended by posting nonsense in the wrong thread.