The Rite

I caught a few minutes of this at work, and even though I average watching a movie about once every 2 years, I went out and got it immediately. I found it good, one of the few movies that kept me in my seat for it's entirety without a cigarette break. Hopkins always does a fantasic job of acting.

But the "based on a true story" part, that raises a curious eyebrow. I just can't look at this without the eyes of skepticism. I would think that had this been true, there'd be tons of news coverage, research, demonstations, etc. I, for one, would be first in line to witness an exorcism regardless of "possible consequences".

In any case, thumbs up for the movie. Surely worth the $2 Blockbuster investment.

If you liked the movie the book it is very loosely based on is awesome; "The Rite: The Making of a Modern Exorcist" by: Matt Baglio.
The book is an absolutely true story by a reporter who befriends an American priest studying exorcisms in Rome. He follows him through his classes so if you every wanted to know the real deal about the devil, exorcisms, angels, etc. this book does a really good job of filling you in. Then you also go along during actual exorcisms and hear accounts from the priests performing the rites and those who were possessed. It is all well researched and documented and is very educational too.

Do you actually believe that people are inhabited by evil "spirits" or do you just think that religion is an excuse for people to change from inheritently bad to good through a change in belief in God?

Believing in God doesn't make anyone good. "...Even the Demons believe in God and shudder..."

I don't want to answer for FrGamble, but here's my own opinion.

A - I don't believe in God, or souls, or spirits, or whatever. I therefore do not beleive in "evil spirits."

B - But I think that if you DO believe in God, then you probably believe in souls. In that case, you probably should also believe it's possible for a soul to be bad, or possessed, or something similarly unwelcome.

Sounds like FrGamble became a priest because he saw
The Exorcist one time too many as a kid.

I don't want to answer for FrG either, but I think he would say that the number of exorcisms the church does on an annual basis is low, and that normal mental illness is what ails most people that act crazy.

Of course, I'm skeptical of even one case of demonic possession, but it does make for entertaining subject matter.

Quote: FrGamble

If you liked the movie the book it is very loosely based on is awesome; "The Rite: The Making of a Modern Exorcist" by: Matt Baglio.
The book is an absolutely true story by a reporter who befriends an American priest studying exorcisms in Rome. He follows him through his classes so if you every wanted to know the real deal about the devil, exorcisms, angels, etc. this book does a really good job of filling you in. Then you also go along during actual exorcisms and hear accounts from the priests performing the rites and those who were possessed. It is all well researched and documented and is very educational too.

I like the movie as far as movies go. I thought it was well done, and there's something about Hopkins I just love. I don't "see" Hopkins when he acts, I see "Burt Munro" in Worlds Fastest Indian, I see "Father Lucas Trevant" in The Rite. I don't see "Hannibal Lecter" racing a motorcycle, or "Odin" performing excocisms. I like that.

As far as the subject matter goes, I found it interesting, but I do find it impossible to take as fact. No disrespect or flame intended, but I just don't have the ability. That's a big reason I'd like to see it. As a skeptic, I need a skeptical confirmation (assuming a scientific one is impossible).

Perhaps, and I'm just thinking out loud now, it's a true/false, an existing nonexistance. What I mean is, I could tell you some outrageous story, like the time my refrigerator turned in Mario and jump bumped my cupboards releasing coins. Of course, this is impossible, but I absolutely with no doubt in my mind saw it. I could tell you of the time I saw a herd of giraffes grazing in the fields of WNY, and have eyewitness support to this claim. Not a test in the world could prove our dishonesty in making these claims. If you've ever taken hallucinogens, you could understand. If you haven't, you really can't.

Do you think this excorcism deal could be similar? Perhaps if I went, as an unbeliever, as someone who is totally ignorant, I could go and only find someone acting a fool. I could be "possessed" as a result of contact, but not recognize it as such. Maybe I'm angry more often, maybe my personality changes gradually into a heel, but I 'm not aware of a change because I'm not aware of what has just happened. Whereas a believer, who knows exactly what's happening, who's in tune with that world, would be drastically affected and have a severe reaction?

I hope no offense is taken comparing your beliefs to an acid trip, I just don't know how else to describe the idea in question. It just seems the only people who confirm the existence of possessions are spiritual. If possessions were truely possible, wouldn't they affect believers and non believers alike? And if so, in the 100's of years of excorcisms, wouldn't this have already been accepted as fact and be well known? Or could it be like I described where you can't know without knowledge. Someone who hasn't tripped couldn't conceive of Mario appearing, while those with experience know exactly what I'm talking about.

Jesus supposedly cast out demons, thats where they get
it from. It should be said, however, the understanding in
Jesus time was all crazy people were possessed, that was
their explanation for anything they didn't understand. Why
is it every incarnation of god, in every religion, only seems
to be as smart as the times he lived in. It seems if Jesus
really wanted to do some good, he could have told people
to wash their hands before they eat.. God, a real god, would
certainly know that, or so it seems to me..

I really do recommend the book referenced earlier, it answers just about all your questions plus those you might be scared to ask.

Exorcisms in a case of possession are indeed relatively rare and treated very, very carefully. As everyone seems to know the possibility of mental illness has to be eliminated by professionals before permission for a full exorcism will even be considered. By the way it is incorrect to say that in Jesus' time demonic possession was the excuse for any form of mental illness or strange disease. One of the large groups Jesus often dealt with, the Sadducees, clearly do not believe in angels or spirits. So you can't explain away Christ's warnings about the evil one and demons to just being the culture or understanding of the day.

However, you might be surprised to know the case of exorcisms is undoubtedly on the rise. To understand this we have to realize that not every case of demonic influence is the full blown and most grave instance of possession. There are far more instances of demonic oppression or obsession.

Unfortunately, the demons do not play fair and do not only go after those who believe in such spiritual realities as angels and demons. Every soul is fair game in their eyes. However, you must of your own volition open yourself to the influence or world of these dangerous spiritual realities. Therefore, it is not like you can just be possessed or oppressed out of the blue. This leads to the best advice I've heard in regards to Satan and stuff like this. Treat him like a crazed and rabid dog chained to a post, do not go anywhere near the reach of the chain and you'll be safe.

Quote: FrGamble

As everyone seems to know the possibility of mental illness has to be eliminated by professionals before permission for a full exorcism will even be considered.

So, Padre, you think there are professional mental
health care providers that will make a diagnosis that
somebody has demons that need to be exorcised?

You think a shrink will actually say, 'yup, he's not
well but I can't find anything wrong with him. Must
be those pesky demons.'

Seriously, dude...

There has to be activity or behavior that cannot be attributed to mental illness. The professional mental health care provider does not have to diagnose demons, but does have to diagnose strange occurrences that cannot be explained simply by mental illness. Pea soup projectile vomit is only one such instance, levitation, superhuman strength, strange or unknown languages being spoken, knowledge of things that one would have no way of knowing, etc. are example of others. This also helps to make sure the person is not faking any of the above abnormal behavior before a full exorcism is performed.

Quote: FrGamble

I really do recommend the book referenced earlier, it answers just about all your questions plus those you might be scared to ask.

Exorcisms in a case of possession are indeed relatively rare and treated very, very carefully. As everyone seems to know the possibility of mental illness has to be eliminated by professionals before permission for a full exorcism will even be considered

The Story of a Modern-Day Exorcist ( Mar. 16, 2009) is an interview with Matt Baglio, about the research he did before writing "The Rite". Matt discussed the course being taught at the Vatican and he notes: The course would bring in experts — experts in satanic cults, experts in criminology, they even had a psychiatrist come in to talk to the priests about the differences between the various mental illnesses that could be confused for demonic possession vs. what the church says is actually demonic possession.

I am very fond of the Spanish painter Goya.

Quote: FrGamble

Pea soup projectile vomit is only one such instance, levitation>>>

And, um, you believe in levitation? A shrink tells you,
yup, he's levitating, darned if I know how. He's not
mentally ill.

I know you're joking around, just admit it..

Quote: EvenBob

And, um, you believe in levitation? A shrink tells you,
yup, he's levitating, darned if I know how. He's not
mentally ill.

I know you're joking around, just admit it..

I wish I was joking. The interview that pacomartin linked to is a decent interview with the author of the book. Here is another quote from it:

When you started the book, did you lean one way or another in terms of whether or not you believed in the possibility of
exorcism?
I came at this topic very journalistically, not having an opinion for or against it. I wanted to really understand what it is and why the church still believes in it. But even exorcists themselves admit that 90% of the people that come to see them don't need an exorcism. There still remains a small percentage of cases, however, involving levitation, mind-reading and other paranormal phenomena that can't be explained through science. Maybe one day.

Read more

Quote: FrGamble

There still remains a small percentage of cases, however, involving levitation, mind-reading and other paranormal phenomena that can't be explained through science.

There are people who believe in Bigfoot, too. The fact
that you believe such utter nonsense has me doing a
double take. Levitation? If it was you intention to drive
people away from taking the Church seriously, you're
doing a bang up job.

Quote: FrGamble

I really do recommend the book referenced earlier, it answers just about all your questions plus those you might be scared to ask.

Oy. I have a reading assignment from Nareed already queued up, this site is going to keep my winter busy ;)

Quote: FrGamble

... Every soul is fair game in their eyes. However, you must of your own volition open yourself to the influence or world of these dangerous spiritual realities. Therefore, it is not like you can just be possessed or oppressed out of the blue. This leads to the best advice I've heard in regards to Satan and stuff like this. Treat him like a crazed and rabid dog chained to a post, do not go anywhere near the reach of the chain and you'll be safe.

Could you explain this further? What is meant by "open yourself up"? Is it ignorance, in the same way ignorance of pathogens would make handwashing pointless, opening you up for infection? Is it something more direct, like committing foul acts (theft, lies, lust, etc)? Or is it very direct, like messing with ouija boards, witchcraft, other "dark" beliefs?

Quote: EvenBob

There are people who believe in Bigfoot, too. The fact
that you believe such utter nonsense has me doing a
double take. Levitation? If it was you intention to drive
people away from taking the Church seriously, you're
doing a bang up job.

I am really trying to get people to take Satan seriously. I admit levitation seems like the strangest indication of possession so I can see why you are clinging onto that as an example, lets drop it.
These symptoms, so to speak, are much more common and much more often observed:
1) abnormal strength
2) ability to speak or understand a previously unknown language
3) knowledge of hidden things (whether it is a prediction of the future or identifying an object in a bag)
4) strong aversion to holy or sacred things (the name of Jesus, holy water, etc.)

I really encourage you to read about this phenomenon because the experience of the paranormal is very different than bigfoot. I don't want to drive people away from the Church but I do believe exorcisms, angels, demons, and the devil are very real and not nonsense.

Quote: EvenBob

The fact that you believe such utter nonsense has me doing a double take. Levitation?
If it was you intention to drive people away from taking the Church seriously, you're doing a bang up job.

I think you should ease up on the father. There is a long list of things in the Catholic church that are as miraculous as levitation. A shroud with the imprint of Jesus. Statues that bleed through the stigmata. A virgin birth. You could list them all day.

All the father did is recommend a book about a topic that the journalist who wrote the book was and still is highly skeptical. But the journalist did at least do the research and faithfully report what he found. He didn't dismiss everything immediately.

The topic has been a part of Christianity from day one.

I'm. Not. Saying. One. Word.

Quote: FrGamble

I am really trying to get people to take Satan seriously. I admit levitation seems like the strangest indication of possession

Most of us here don't even take god seriously, let
alone his buddy Satan. I'm still scratching my head
over god ruining Job's life because the Devil dared
him to. Now we have to deal with levitation? Whats
next, Vampires, crosses and wooden stakes?

Quote: pacomartin

I think you should ease up on the father. There is a long list of things in the Catholic church that are as miraculous as levitation. A shroud with the imprint of Jesus. Statues that bleed through the stigmata. A virgin birth.

But did Mary levitate, thats what I'm wondering. And
why is she the big kahoona of the Catholics, I don't see that
anywhere in the New Testement.

Quote: EvenBob

Most of us here don't even take god seriously,... I'm still scratching my head
over god ruining Job's life because the Devil dared
him to.

You will be scratching your head for awhile if you take the story of Job literally. Here is a quote to help you figure out that there are different styles and types of books in the Bible; "To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to "literary forms." For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts that are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture" (Dei Verbum 12).
Only someone desperate to make some silly point would think that God and the devil literally had a double dog dare ya and poor Job was the victim. This idea is blocking you from understanding the true message of the story.

Look I'm really sorry that your world view does not allow you to acknowledge the existence of the supernatural but please don't make ridiculous comparisions to bigfoot or vampires or promote the idea that an exquisite dramatic poem treating the important topic of the suffering of the innocent needs to be taken as literal history. It makes me not want to take you seriously.

Quote: FrGamble

Look I'm really sorry that your world view does not allow you to acknowledge the existence of the supernatural

So you want us to believe in virgin mothers and vomiting
levitating young girls, but not Vampires. How do you know
where to draw the line between whats real and whats just
dumb? Why not just believe every nutso thing you hear, in
for a penny, in for a pound..

Quote: FrGamble

dramatic poem treating the important topic of the suffering of the innocent needs to be taken as literal history. .

Because your friends the Bible thumpers tell
us to take every word of the Bible literally. Thats
why.

Quote: Nareed

I'm. Not. Saying. One. Word.

Thank you for your restraint =) Because even though...

Quote: EvenBob

Most of us here don't even take god seriously,

...including me, I often find interest in certain areas. This happens to be one. It's not often I find myself in the company of someone who can explain it further, such as FrG, and was hoping I could discuss it with him. The links supplied by he and paco just made my curiosity worse.

I just hope he doesn't get flamed out.

Quote: Face

What is meant by "open yourself up"? Is it ignorance, in the same way ignorance of pathogens would make handwashing pointless, opening you up for infection? Is it something more direct, like committing foul acts (theft, lies, lust, etc)? Or is it very direct, like messing with ouija boards, witchcraft, other "dark" beliefs?

I think Ignorance is bliss or at least safe in regards to opening ourselves up to the demonic because if we are simply ignorant of the supernatural we will not conciously seek it out or mess with it. The importance of our own choice and free will cannot be emphasized enough in regards to keeping us free from the evil one.
You hit on the two biggies in regards to allowing a foothold for the devil in our lives. The commiting of foul or mortal (serious) sin is an implicit invitation by our actions which signals our weakness and potential openness to evil in our lives. The second way we can come in unfortunate contact with demons is the occult. I tend to believe that most of the time when playing with fortune tellers and the like we are just getting ripped off and that is if we are lucky! These practices could also on occasion lead to encounters with evil spirits. Obviously any "dark" beliefs and/or practices are the surest way to invite paranormal and just plain normal problems into your life.

I stand corrected, here's proof levitation really exists.

Quote: FrGamble

I think Ignorance is bliss or at least safe in regards to opening ourselves up to the demonic because if we are simply ignorant of the supernatural

So you support VooDoo, then. They certainly embrace the
demonic and are open to the supernatural.

Quote: EvenBob

Jesus supposedly cast out demons, thats where they get
it from. It should be said, however, the understanding in
Jesus time was all crazy people were possessed, that was
their explanation for anything they didn't understand. Why
is it every incarnation of god, in every religion, only seems
to be as smart as the times he lived in. It seems if Jesus
really wanted to do some good, he could have told people
to wash their hands before they eat.. God, a real god, would
certainly know that, or so it seems to me..

If you read Mark chapter 3 and Luke chapter 11, you will see that demonic possession and insanity were distinct concepts, even then.

Quote: EvenBob

Most of us here don't even take god seriously, let
alone his buddy Satan. I'm still scratching my head
over god ruining Job's life because the Devil dared
him to. Now we have to deal with levitation? Whats
next, Vampires, crosses and wooden stakes?

The story of Job does read a bit like Trading Places except for documenting the $1 bet.

Wow, i haven't realized that this forum was fulfilled with insolent people, lol.

Just discovered another great book that everyone should read: "Unbound: A Practical Guide to Deliverance" by Neal Lozano