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Quote: FrGambleatheists are looking for a complete and perfect knowledge that there is a God before making the reasonable decision to believe in God. .
We wait for evidence before believing in
anything, how can god be any different.
It would be easier if everybody believed
in exactly the same god, but they don't.
If god was that obvious, there would only
be one religion.
Think about it..
Quote: FrGambleYour giving up the hope of any evidence and stubborn refusal to accept any probably has something to do with you not finding any.
That's a very roundabout way of quoting Groucho. The line you want is "Who are you going to believe? Me, or your lying eyes?"
Quote:Most rational people who have not closed their minds to this issue admit that there is proof literally all around us of at least a creator.
Rational? It's not rational to be open to a wish backed by feelings, failures to grasp randomness as a factor in all affairs and baseless assertions.
Quote:I could understand a little your refusal to have faith because of evidence you find that there is no God or because you think there is not enough evidence. You sound just plain silly (and yes, very annoying) when you don't allow for any evidence showing the possibility of a divine creator.
You sound naive, by insisting that just because there isn't any evidence it is illogical to believe there isn't any evidence. We've been at this for months, and you've presented nothing. Not little, not an insufficient amount, nothing. Not one thing. Nada. Zero. Zilch. Zip. None.
Take your assertion about the beautiful world. It may be pretty, but have you noticed we're naturally ill-suited to the vast majority of this planet? We're adapted to a small patch of savanna in Africa. Anywhere else people go, they need to adapt the world to suit them. Be it killing animals to wear their skins to help us cope with a hostile climate, or building houses to help us do the same thing. Just think how much human effort, how much money, goes into controlling temperature. Not just air conditioning and furnaces for central heating, but every space heater, ice cube, refrigerator, fireplace, mud hut, house, building, humidifier, dehumidifier, fan and clothing ever made and used.
That is supposed to be a world made by some omnipotent creator for our benefit? In what universe does that even make sense?
Quote:That is exactly my point. You don't need to be omniscient to act in life or to make a reasonable decision. Yet it seems like many atheists are looking for a complete and perfect knowledge that there is a God before making the reasonable decision to believe in God.
No. Just one tiny, sub-microscopic iota of evidence.
Quote:Of course they are not hindered by the lack of incontrovertible proof that there is no God before making that decision.
I cannot go through life refuting every baseless assertion with ironclad proof that it is not so. I don't need to prove ghosts, vampires, dragons, giants, werewolves, mermaids, etc cannot exist before I can rationally conclude they don't exist. Same thing: NO evidence for their existence at all. None.
Quote: NareedI cannot go through life refuting every baseless assertion with ironclad proof that it is not so. I don't need to prove ghosts, vampires, dragons, giants, werewolves, mermaids, etc cannot exist before I can rationally conclude they don't exist. Same thing: NO evidence for their existence at all. None.
Stop the madness Nareed! You really need to stop being so naive yourself. Over 80% of the world's population believes in God and follow some form of religion. Your above comparisons are childish and give me the impression you are sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes, sticking out your tongue and saying, "nanny, nanny, boo boo, I can't hear you."
Quote: FrGambleOver 80% of the world's population believes in God and follow some form of religion.
And back in the days when 99.9% of the world
couldn't read or write, 99% of the world followed
some form of religion. The smarter people get,
the less they need a god to blame everything on.
Quote: FrGambleYour above comparisons are childish and give me the impression you are sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes, sticking out your tongue and saying, "nanny, nanny, boo boo, I can't hear you."
Is that the best you've got? What ever happened to the vaunted Roman Catholic commitment to logic and scholarship? Really, I expected better of you.
Quote: NareedIs that the best you've got? What ever happened to the vaunted Roman Catholic commitment to logic and scholarship? Really, I expected better of you.
It's just that I've given you many examples of evidence for a belief in God, some of which you have unsuccessfully tried to counter, and yet you still claim to know of nothing, nada, zilch that could lead one to a belief in God. Then you compare belief in God to mermaids and vampires?!? I have never been impressed with the commitment to logic and scholarship of atheists but I did expect better of you.
Ephphatha!
Quote: FrGambleYour giving up the hope of any evidence
This is worth adressing more deeply.
You seem to believe I, and pressumably all atheists, am anxiously waiting for evidence of god, so I can make up my mind and, rpessumably, fall in line along the vast majority of epople who profess to believe in god. Or perhaps that I should be awaiting such evidence.
I can't and won't, speak for atheists in general. As for myself, I'm not sittign ont he fence, undecided and waiting for evidence. I'm done. There is no evidence. And all I know about the universe in general, suggests such things as deities are not within the realm of the possible. If this were a courtroom, believers would be in the position of the prosecution, and they failed to make their case. Trial's over and you've lost.
As to another point of yours about knowing everything, no one can know everything. So, yes, we go through life with the best information we have and make decisions based on that, and experience, and even on hunches and feelings. Feelings are a perfectly good guide to act, if you know why you feel a certain way about a certain thing, otherwise they're worthless.
But feelings are not evidence, except of your state of mind and health, and those of people similar to you. For example, an intense pain on your left arm can be evidence of a heart condition, in you. It cannot be evidence of any kind of health problem in someone else. It is not evidence of a conspiracy by outside forces to annoy you, even.
Yet you bring up the feeling that there must be some purpose to life, and the feeling that there must be something more to existence than this world, as evidence that there must be a god. That's not even an argument.
Does it matter if you're alone in this belief based on your feelings, or if all the rest of the world save me join you in this? Not to me, it doesn't.
Quote: FrGambleIt's just that I've given you many examples of evidence for a belief in God, some of which you have unsuccessfully tried to counter, and yet you still claim to know of nothing, nada, zilch that could lead one to a belief in God.
To clarify:
1) You've presented nothing remotely resembling evidence.
2) I've not failed to counter what you've presented, because there's no need to. In other words, I haven't even tried.
3) Given item 1, I maintain that 0 = 0.
Quote:Then you compare belief in God to mermaids and vampires?!?
Yes. It's essentially the same kind of belief: based on faith, feelings and wishful thinking.
The consequences of belief are vastly different, to be sure. But the belief is the same type.
Quote: FrGambleIt seems like many atheists are looking for a complete and perfect knowledge that there is a God before making the reasonable decision to believe in God. Of course they are not hindered by the lack of incontrovertible proof that there is no God before making that decision
Atheists in general are not concerned with whether God exists. They understand that the burden of proving a proposition lies squarely on the shoulders of the proposer - the default belief, reinforced by the overwhelming testimony of the senses, is that Reality is all there is and needs to be. Atheists concern themselves with civilization according to rational moral standards, and they know the folly and threat of allowing superstitions and unfounded speculations to overshadow Reason's authority in matters of humanity. If religionists could be trusted to keep their theology-based communities to themselves, which right the non-theists have repeatedly striven to protect, there would be no more "resistance". It's never the atheists who have been the propogandists and predators; it'salways been the theists.
Over 99% of young children believe in Santa Claus, but that does not make him real!
Quote: NowTheSerpentAtheists in general are not concerned with whether God exists. They understand that the burden of proving a proposition lies squarely on the shoulders of the proposer - the default belief, reinforced by the overwhelming testimony of the senses, is that Reality is all there is and needs to be. Atheists concern themselves with civilization according to rational moral standards, and they know the folly and threat of allowing superstitions and unfounded speculations to overshadow Reason's authority in matters of humanity. If religionists could be trusted to keep their theology-based communities to themselves, which right the non-theists have repeatedly striven to protect, there would be no more "resistance". It's never the atheists who have been the propogandists and predators; it'salways been the theists.
Hear, Hear. Thank you. I will add, though, that reason alone is not enough. You have to add compassion and empathy. A world without feeling is hostile to humanity.
Quote: Nareed
I can't and won't, speak for atheists in general. As for myself, I'm not sittign ont he fence, undecided and waiting for evidence. I'm done. There is no evidence. And all I know about the universe in general, suggests such things as deities are not within the realm of the possible. If this were a courtroom, believers would be in the position of the prosecution, and they failed to make their case. Trial's over and you've lost.
Wait I've still got a billion people to testify to the reality of God. Oh I forgot in your crazy make believe courtroom that is not considered evidence. Well Nareed can you tell me where all the stuff around us came from? Oh it just happens to exist without any cause, does that really make sense? Isn't there something about the complexity needed to create life as we know it that seems miraculous or even planned? The whole example of putting the parts of a space shuttle in a blender and out pops a fully functional space shuttle idea.
Quote: NareedAs to another point of yours about knowing everything, no one can know everything. So, yes, we go through life with the best information we have and make decisions based on that, and experience, and even on hunches and feelings. Feelings are a perfectly good guide to act, if you know why you feel a certain way about a certain thing, otherwise they're worthless.
This is another reason your courtroom anaology falls flat. Neither of us are going to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that God exists or doesn't. We are both dealing with strong feelings based on evidence we find credible and reasonable doubt. You feel very strongly there is no God and you have blocked out any reasonable doubt to your position that there is indeed a God. I feel very strongly that God does exist, but I at least acknowledge the evidence and arguments against God and try to use philosophy, science, and my theological tradition to wrestle with them. You are as you say, "done". You readily admit you don't know everything and then boldy proclaim there is no evidence that God is a possiblity. It would be worth addressing a little deeper, probably not here, why your feelings are so strong about this and about why you are allowing them to blind you.
Since it seems obvious to me that feelings are indeed at the heart of your problem with God I will let them be. They are yours and unique to you and I have nothing that I could or should say to argue against them. I repect your feelings towards God and religion and I will leave you alone. Peace.
Quote: FrGambleWait I've still got a billion people to testify to the reality of God. Oh I forgot in your crazy make believe courtroom that is not considered evidence. Well Nareed can you tell me where all the stuff around us came from? Oh it just happens to exist without any cause, does that really make sense? Isn't there something about the complexity needed to create life as we know it that seems miraculous or even planned? The whole example of putting the parts of a space shuttle in a blender and out pops a fully functional space shuttle idea.
OK. What proof do they have, other than their testimony? Seriously. Are we going to accept the weight of numbers? Is the God a moving target, based on how many people believe in it?
Quote: MoscaQuote: NowTheSerpentAtheists in general are not concerned with whether God exists. They understand that the burden of proving a proposition lies squarely on the shoulders of the proposer - the default belief, reinforced by the overwhelming testimony of the senses, is that Reality is all there is and needs to be. Atheists concern themselves with civilization according to rational moral standards, and they know the folly and threat of allowing superstitions and unfounded speculations to overshadow Reason's authority in matters of humanity. If religionists could be trusted to keep their theology-based communities to themselves, which right the non-theists have repeatedly striven to protect, there would be no more "resistance". It's never the atheists who have been the propogandists and predators; it'salways been the theists.
Hear, Hear. Thank you. I will add, though, that reason alone is not enough. You have to add compassion and empathy. A world without feeling is hostile to humanity.
Hear, Hear to Mosca's clarification about adding compassion and empathy. The problem with the Serpent's statements is that atheism seems to take life at face value, "Here is what the senses tell you that reality is, that is all there is and needs to be." Atheism as it is described above seems to make us into nothing more than animals. Thank God we have higher faculities than just our five senses. We have reason that allows us to believe there is something more to life. That there are unchanging rational moral standards to live by grounded in something greater than us. We have all seen what happens when theology-based communities are quieted or persecuted by atheists so that those moral standards non-theists claim to care so much about can be corrupted and changed to the oppostie of compassion and empathy.
Quote: FrGambleWait I've still got a billion people to testify to the reality of God. Oh I forgot in your crazy make believe courtroom that is not considered evidence.
In my make believe courtroom, fo rthose of you ipervious to analogy, the human mind is considered an amazing thing. It can conceive anything, and coupled with action can produce literally billions and billions of differentthings. What it cannot do is alter reality merely by thinking or wishing, no matter how hard it wishes or thinks something.
So, if one trillion people believe the Earth to be the unmovable center of the Universe, it won't make it so. If every human being who ever existed or ever will exist, except me, believes in something, call it god, for which there is no evidence, their belief, wishes, and thoughts won't make it so either.
And as Mosca so apty ask: what is their evidence aside from their belief?
Quote:Well Nareed can you tell me where all the stuff around us came from?
Of course I can. As soon as someone discovers it, I'll tell you.
Quote:Oh it just happens to exist without any cause, does that really make sense?
As much sense as a god happening to exist without cause.
Quote:Isn't there something about the complexity needed to create life as we know it that seems miraculous or even planned?
I don't see it. Can you prove it? Do you have anything to back up that claim besides your feelings?
Quote:The whole example of putting the parts of a space shuttle in a blender and out pops a fully functional space shuttle idea.
For shame, you stoop to the "intelligent" design argument? Is the Pope aware of this? ;)
Quote:Neither of us are going to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that God exists or doesn't.
For that matter neither of us can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that, say, other species as intelligent and self-aware as us exist somewhere in the Universe. But a) I don't make the claim that they do and b) I don't base my philosophical needs on the feeling that they do.
If I were making such a claim, you'd be entitled to doubt it and ask for evidence. If I failed to produce any evidence, save my feelings and even a strong conviction that they must exist, you'd be perfectly justified in dismissing my claim without providing any evidence that such beings don't exist.
Clear?
Quote:We are both dealing with strong feelings based on evidence we find credible and reasonable doubt. You feel very strongly there is no God and you have blocked out any reasonable doubt to your position that there is indeed a God. I feel very strongly that God does exist, but I at least acknowledge the evidence and arguments against God and try to use philosophy, science, and my theological tradition to wrestle with them.
You have one thing right: you're dealing with feelings.
Here's how I see it. You begin with the feeling that there must be a god, that the universe must ahve been created, that there must be more to life, etc etc. If you consider any evidence, it's in reference to your feelings, but you also put your feelings first.
I'm not dealing with feelings, but with evidence. I don't see any evidence to make me suspect there may be 1) a god, 2) a cause external to the universe, 3) more to existence than this life and this universe (and there's a lot of universe, BTW <w>), and lots of other things, like mermaids, vampires, ghosts, that red is due, etc.
Quote:You are as you say, "done". You readily admit you don't know everything and then boldy proclaim there is no evidence that God is a possiblity.
I don't see a contradiction. If evidence of a deity were uncovered, I'd be glad to look at it, or read about it, and reach my own conclussions. As it is, thereis no evidence available as of now. Of course new evidence may change my mind. but your feelings, and the feelings of everyone selse, still are not evidence.
Quote:It would be worth addressing a little deeper, probably not here, why your feelings are so strong about this and about why you are allowing them to blind you.
I. Will. Not. Say. A. Word.
Quote:Since it seems obvious to me that feelings are indeed at the heart of your problem with God I will let them be.
There is no problem with god, as there is no god for there to be a problem with. The problem is with believers who want to ruin this life, our only life, of those of us who dare diagree with them.
Quote:They are yours and unique to you and I have nothing that I could or should say to argue against them.
True.
Quote:I repect your feelings towards God and religion and I will leave you alone. Peace.
One can hope. I do believe you mean it, but I'm not convinced you'll resist the temptation. For my part, I can make no simialr promise. I know I won't eradicate belief in god, but the war is long and we fight as we can. It will be left to posterity to finish it.
Quote: FrGambleQuote: MoscaQuote: NowTheSerpentAtheists in general are not concerned with whether God exists. They understand that the burden of proving a proposition lies squarely on the shoulders of the proposer - the default belief, reinforced by the overwhelming testimony of the senses, is that Reality is all there is and needs to be. Atheists concern themselves with civilization according to rational moral standards, and they know the folly and threat of allowing superstitions and unfounded speculations to overshadow Reason's authority in matters of humanity. If religionists could be trusted to keep their theology-based communities to themselves, which right the non-theists have repeatedly striven to protect, there would be no more "resistance". It's never the atheists who have been the propogandists and predators; it'salways been the theists.
Hear, Hear. Thank you. I will add, though, that reason alone is not enough. You have to add compassion and empathy. A world without feeling is hostile to humanity.
Hear, Hear to Mosca's clarification about adding compassion and empathy. The problem with the Serpent's statements is that atheism seems to take life at face value, "Here is what the senses tell you that reality is, that is all there is and needs to be." Atheism as it is described above seems to make us into nothing more than animals. Thank God we have higher faculities than just our five senses. We have reason that allows us to believe there is something more to life. That there are unchanging rational moral standards to live by grounded in something greater than us. We have all seen what happens when theology-based communities are quieted or persecuted by atheists so that those moral standards non-theists claim to care so much about can be corrupted and changed to the oppostie of compassion and empathy.
I only mean to emphasize that the basis for evidence about the nature of Reality is the world itself - perception rather than utter imagination. Yes, most certainly, we must abstract to higher levels of inference and deduction in order to form the proper human perspective on nature. Cognition is more than mere sensory perception, but imagining whatever we want and mysticizing despite what sense tells us is a whole lot less.
Quote: buzzpaff" Over 80% of the world's population believes in God and follow some form of religion. Your above comparisons are childish "
Over 99% of young children believe in Santa Claus, but that does not make him real!
Have you been to the North Pole to confirm he's really not there?
Quote: NowTheSerpentIt's never the atheists who have been the propogandists and predators; it'salways been the theists.
That begs the question:
What would happen if atheists became propagandists, not specifically against religion per se, but rather for critical evaluation and rational thought?
Quote: MathExtremistQuote: NowTheSerpentIt's never the atheists who have been the propogandists and predators; it'salways been the theists.
That begs the question:
What would happen if atheists became propagandists, not specifically against religion per se, but rather for critical evaluation and rational thought?
The skeptical movement is just that. The next question is "does it succeed"?
Your excuse that things cannot be explained, ergo, God, doesn't work. Imagine the resistance the church had when Galileo and Copernicus came up with their models. There was no embrace of the science. How could it be -- the earth is not at the center of the Universe?
We're getting close to figuring out how the universe started. One day, I'm confident we'll figure it all out. At that point in time, we'll know how it all started, why it started, and perhaps the cause. And the answer might not be "God". Just like Darwin's evolution and radiocarbon dating came along and proved that Adam was not born on the 6th day in 4004 BC, we don't know that the Big Bang was God.
My belief in God through faith transcends that. I say "there is no reason for God to exist", yet He does, in my heart. I leave open the possibility that the one great truth is "God created the Earth and the Heavens" and leave it at that. I have no proof that he did, and "because the Bible says so" may not be enough.
one. I've never seen atheists passing out
literature at the airport or going door to
door begging people to believe as they do.
Why is that.
Quote: boymimboHe got no tip. Hell, he barely got the fare.
How Christian of you..
in witches for thousands of years, just as much
as they believed in god. For proof, they had
babies dying, crops failing, cows and wells
drying up, droughts, sickness. Much of this
was blamed on evil spells cast by witches.
Modern science shows us its not the truth.
There are still witches, try and get one of
them to do anything out of the ordinary. But
at one time, people were scared to death
of them and they had proof everywhere they
turned. Far more proof than you have that
god exists. And look how the witch thing
turned out..
Quote: EvenBobConsider witches, FrG. People have believed
in witches for thousands of years, just as much
as they believed in god. For proof, they had
babies dying, crops failing, cows and wells
drying up, droughts, sickness. Much of this
was blamed on evil spells cast by witches.
Modern science shows us its not the truth.
There are still witches, try and get one of
them to anything out of the ordinary. But
at one time, people were scared to death
of them and they had proof everywhere they
turned. Far more proof than you have that
god exists. And look how the witch thing
turned out..
That one's easy, Bob. There used to be witches, and now there aren't.
Extrapolate.
Quote: MoscaThat one's easy, Bob. There used to be witches, and now there aren't..
Where did they all go? Its a mystery.
Quote: EvenBobThe point about propagandists is a good
one. I've never seen atheists passing out
literature at the airport or going door to
door begging people to believe as they do.
Why is that.
I think it is because they have nothing to offer. I wonder what the atheist would say to people dealing with economic difficulties, stress in families, the death of a loved one, famine in Africa, or a gambling addiction?
I also think it funny that atheists often feel they have a monopoly on critical evaluation and rational thought. These are human tools that are essential for the discovery of truth. Every important decision from the choice to deny God's existence to the decision to believe in God uses these important tools.
Quote: EvenBobWhere did they all go? Its a mystery.
Airplanes fly because we believe they will.
Quote: FrGambleI think it is because they have nothing to offer. I wonder what the atheist would say to people dealing with economic difficulties, stress in families, the death of a loved one, famine in Africa, or a gambling addiction?
I also think it funny that atheists often feel they have a monopoly on critical evaluation and rational thought. These are human tools that are essential for the discovery of truth. Every important decision from the choice to deny God's existence to the decision to believe in God uses these important tools.
Ah, the good Father is again attributing personality flaws and behaviours to Atheist en masse which are attributes that they don't all have.
Quote: FrGambleI think it is because they have nothing to offer. .
No, its because we don't give a rip what
other people believe as long as they keep
it to themselves. Why does god have to
be an MLM, like Amway.
Quote: FrGambleI also think it funny that atheists often feel they have a monopoly on critical evaluation and rational thought. These are human tools
The human tools are the people that push
god in your face when you didn't ask them
to. (sorry, I couldn't resist that one)
Quote: MoscaAirplanes fly because we believe they will.
Thats why there's so much praying among
the passengers when in flight. Thanks for
clearing that up..
Quote: boymimboJust because people believe doesn't make it so. Where did all the stuff come around from? Does it really make sense? I don't know. Science is working on the problem. Tell me something FR. When science answers that question with a provable theory -- that there is a cause, and it does make sense, and the answer is not "God", what will you think then?
Tell me how you think this all powerful science will be able to prove that there is some cause outside of time, that is not observable, testable, or even matter at all? You see science is limited to what we can observe, test, and prove. When you are dealing with things like God, or what existed before everything existed, or the idea of an infinite regress you have left the purview of science. Science has not the means to disprove God. Philosophy is the tool one wants to use to try and disprove God.
Quote: boymimboYour excuse that things cannot be explained, ergo, God, doesn't work. Imagine the resistance the church had when Galileo and Copernicus came up with their models. There was no embrace of the science. How could it be -- the earth is not at the center of the Universe?
We're getting close to figuring out how the universe started. One day, I'm confident we'll figure it all out. At that point in time, we'll know how it all started, why it started, and perhaps the cause. And the answer might not be "God". Just like Darwin's evolution and radiocarbon dating came along and proved that Adam was not born on the 6th day in 4004 BC, we don't know that the Big Bang was God.
I love when science challenges the Church or faith, we all grow through that experience. Like Galileo who was thought at first to be challenging God and theological truths. We realized that just because the earth was not the center of the universe doesn't mean we as humans need to be less important in the eyes of God. Same thing with the dating of earth and such; it strips us of our literal interpretations of Scripture and opens us all up the larger truth that God really is getting at. Remember the Bible is NOT a scientific textbook, it is a book of faith and should be read in that light.
Science also is all about unadulterated truth. It is the most clear form of knowledge and cannot be swayed very easily by our opinions and feelings. We are continually discovering things from science such as the Big Bang or the fact that the complete genetic code is present at the moment of conception that resonate with the truths that come from God's revelation.
Quote: boymimboMy belief in God through faith transcends that. I say "there is no reason for God to exist", yet He does, in my heart. I leave open the possibility that the one great truth is "God created the Earth and the Heavens" and leave it at that. I have no proof that he did, and "because the Bible says so" may not be enough.
Let me end the suspense for you; as an adult the kindergarten song, "God loves me this I know, because the Bible tells me so." is not enough. I continue to be inspired by your beautiful heartfelt faith. I have no fear that science will ever prove you wrong about that one great truth concerning God created the Earth and the Heavens, however I do hope you find ways to support your heart with your head.
Quote: FrGambleI think it is because they have nothing to offer.
In a way. Which way? Glad you asked. atheism is not a religion or ideology. Call it a state of mind. You also don't see groups of, say, optimists propagandizing or proselityzing(sp?) like religions or political movements do.
Quote:I wonder what the atheist would say to people dealing with economic difficulties, stress in families, the death of a loved one, famine in Africa, or a gambling addiction?
It depends on the people involved. No offense, but the religious approach reminds me of a Pinky & The Brain cartoon: Try god. He works on everything (in the cartoon it was leaches). Take death. What consolation is there in that a loved one may be in heaven? He's still gone, you're still going to miss him,a nd you still need to find a way to go on without him. Furhter, how will flattering god now help me in any way?
Quote:I also think it funny that atheists often feel they have a monopoly on critical evaluation and rational thought. These are human tools that are essential for the discovery of truth. Every important decision from the choice to deny God's existence to the decision to believe in God uses these important tools.
You don't know what funny is ;)
I'll answer later. Right now I'm pretending to be working...
Quote: NareedYou also don't see groups of, say, optimists propagandizing or proselityzing(sp?) like religions or political movements do..
That would be funny, to see a guy standing
on a crate, saying "Everything is going to be
great! The future is looking better than ever,
don't worry, be happy!" Nobody would listen
to him, people love gloom and doom. God
was founded on doom, believe or rot in hell.
Quote: FrGambleTell me how you think this all powerful science will be able to prove that there is some cause outside of time, that is not observable, testable, or even matter at all?
How will you?
It may be, perhaps, that I was wrong. You may know what funny is :)
Quote:Philosophy is the tool one wants to use to try and disprove God.
No help there. Philosophy is indeed a powerful tool. But any decent metaphysics does not start with "Breshit bara Elohim et ha shamayim...." (sorry if transliterated Hebrew makes no sense).
Quote: FrGambleI also think it funny that atheists often feel they have a monopoly on critical evaluation and rational thought.
Ok, here's the answer. It involves an old joke:
Nathan comes home from Torah classes one Saturday and his dad asks him what he learned.
"We learned about how Moses freed the Hebrews from Egypt. After Pharaoh turned down his ultimatum, Moses went in with a commando team and freed the slaves. As they were getting away, Pharaoh sent his tanks and armored carriers after them, so Moses had to call in airstrikes from carrier-based aircraft. Then they still had to cross the Red Sea, with Pharaoh's marines in pursuit. So Moses called for amphibious vehicles to-"
"Hold it! Did your Torah teacher tell the story of the Exodus like that?"
"Well, no. but if I tell you what he told us, you're going to think he's insane."
Oh, well. It's an old, old joke...
Do you see my point?
Quote: FrGambleRemember the Bible is NOT a scientific textbook, it is a book of faith and should be read in that light.
Tell that to the fundamental Christians out there.
I'm sorry, but I don't see science and my faith reconciling. My spiritual life is just that... spiritual. Everything else is real. Do I believe that God determines how my life goes... I'd like to think so, but I don't have any scientific proof whatsoever, and I've determined that if I try to prove it with any ounce of science, the questions raised from attempting the scientific proof overwhelm the spiritual belief.
So I let the two of them coexist, for I am just a simpleton.
Quote: MathExtremistQuote: NowTheSerpentIt's never the atheists who have been the propogandists and predators; it'salways been the theists.
That begs the question:
What would happen if atheists became propagandists, not specifically against religion per se, but rather for critical evaluation and rational thought?
That would be the wholesale adoption of Scientism and the eradication of mystical morality - as well as a revolution!
Quote: FrGambleI also think it funny that atheists often feel they have a monopoly on critical evaluation and rational thought. These are human tools
Modern evangelism is salesmanship (it preys upon one's insecurity about the unknown), a very human tool, predicated on the Christians' assurance of their monopoly over praeternatural knowledge (partly through the Doctrine of the Logos), even over against Jewish scholarship of the Old Testament - what impudence!
Quote: MoscaQuote: NowTheSerpentAtheists in general are not concerned with whether God exists. They understand that the burden of proving a proposition lies squarely on the shoulders of the proposer - the default belief, reinforced by the overwhelming testimony of the senses, is that Reality is all there is and needs to be. Atheists concern themselves with civilization according to rational moral standards, and they know the folly and threat of allowing superstitions and unfounded speculations to overshadow Reason's authority in matters of humanity. If religionists could be trusted to keep their theology-based communities to themselves, which right the non-theists have repeatedly striven to protect, there would be no more "resistance". It's never the atheists who have been the propogandists and predators; it'salways been the theists.
Hear, Hear. Thank you. I will add, though, that reason alone is not enough. You have to add compassion and empathy. A world without feeling is hostile to humanity.
Try not to make the mistake of assuming that by championing the supremacy of Reason one abolishes the need for emotional experience. On the contrary, I say that Reason (the uniquely human"responsive" force) must reign in psychological, emotional, and affective provocations (the "reactive" forces we share in common with all beasts) for true self-controlled morality. I call the realization of this ideal, in whole or in part, "Rational Animality". Cognition is not just another psychology (for how then could psychology be a proper science?). By placing Reason as the seat of the conscience, one discovers what and who deserves one's empathy and compassion, and that's less than "just everybody". One assumes responsibility for his own life, as well as for the care and safety of all things and persons which one chooses to have in his life.
Quote: ]Remember the Bible is NOT a scientific textbook.[/q
Tell that to my wifes family. Every word in the
Bible is god's word and the answer to every
question is there. Even science questions."It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Quote: FrGambleWe realized that just because the earth was not the center of the universe
But the Church didn't 'realize' it until there
was irrefutable proof from science that it
was true. The fact that the Church believed
the sun orbited the earth is just another
example, out of hundreds, that the Church
was wrong about. Yet here you are, representing
an institution that has a horrible track record
for being right about anything, trying to get
us to believe there's 'proof' god exists. The next
thing the Church will have to let go of is birth
control. Then it will be allowing priests to marry.
Next will be letting in women priests. Then
allowing openly Gay priests. It will all fall by
the wayside, it has to if the Church is to survive.
Then by that standard alone, at some time in the not to distant past, the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth. That is not a logical arguement my Xaverian Brother high school teachers would have accepted!
Quote: EvenBobBut the Church didn't 'realize' it until there was irrefutable proof from science that it was true. The fact that the Church believed the sun orbited the earth is just another example, out of hundreds, that the Church was wrong about. Yet here you are, representing an institution that has a horrible track record for being right about anything, trying to get us to believe there's 'proof' god exists. The next thing the Church will have to let go of is birth control. Then it will be allowing priests to marry. Next will be letting in women priests. Then allowing openly Gay priests. It will all fall by the wayside, it has to if the Church is to survive.
What's more inexcusable is how the Church tried to intimidate Galileo into retracting an official and incontrovertable scientific testimony in order to enforce a myth.
Quote: NowTheSerpentWhat's more inexcusable is how the Church tried to intimidate Galileo into retracting an official and incontrovertable scientific testimony in order to enforce a myth.
The Church is all myth, some of the myths
are just holding on longer than others.
Joseph Campbell says all myths serve a
purpose, as long as you don't try and present
them as facts.
Quote: buzzpaff" Wait I've still got a billion people to testify to the reality of God. Oh I forgot in your crazy make believe courtroom that is not considered evidence."
Then by that standard alone, at some time in the not to distant past, the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth. That is not a logical arguement my Xaverian Brother high school teachers would have accepted!
My argument is only that billions of people testifing to the truth of something is indeed good solid evidence that should be weighed and not dismissed out of hand. I am not saying that billions of people's testimony would make something obviously proven to be false all of the sudden true, nor am I saying on the basis of this overwhelming testimony alone that God exists. I do want to remind you we are determining if God exists and weighing the evidence. There is no scientific proof (nor can there be) that God exists or does not exist, therefore we have to consider the evidence. I am suggesting that it is quite amazing the hubris in declaring worthless the fact that so many millions upon millions of people who are much smarter than you, me, and all on this forum and who have dedicated their lives to study of theology, philosophy, history, and religion believed with all their heart and mind that there is indeed a God. I think we need to take a reality check and recognize how strange it sounds to say everyone was completely wrong and I am right. It is prideful, childish, foolish, not logical and it would not make the Xaverian Brother's very proud.
Quote: EvenBobIt will all fall by
the wayside, it has to if the Church is to survive.
Your arrogance is unbelievable. Excuse me if I represent frankly the fact that the Church is not scared about surviving after these two thousand years because EvenBob armed with a incorrect and prejudiced view of history says we need to change to fit his vision of what is right. I think we will stick with the truths of God and we'll see you in another couple thousand years or when the Lord returns. Good grief!
