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zippyboy
zippyboy
Joined: Jan 19, 2011
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October 23rd, 2011 at 9:58:59 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Zippy ....

My hope is also that because you are at least thinking about these things and searching for truth in some capacity that you are on a path towards Heaven too. So happy searching, but might I recommend a different thread to find the truth and a little more research on your history. Peace.


Oh, Father, I do think of these things often, and I do wish it was so. I would LOVE there to be a peaceful place where there is no pain as portrayed in the cinema. My favorite movies of all time are about death and what lies beyond, and how man can find the path away from selfishness towards helping others. Think of All That Jazz, Fearless, A River Runs Through it, Groundhog Day, Leaving Las Vegas and Last Day (with Sandra Oh). I wish it, but it's so difficult to believe what I've been told. I tend to think of the world as inter-related. We die, and return to the Earth from where we came. Life goes on without us. It's like a crap table that's been going for 1000's of years. I walk up to it, play for a while and leave, but the game goes on without me.
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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October 23rd, 2011 at 10:56:16 PM permalink
Quote: zippyboy

Proof? Truth? Puh-leeeese. My belief is that Jesus (IF he existed at all) was a human carpenter.



Live by the nail, die by the nail.

I've wondered sometimes if Jesus could only drive nails straight. Seems like he wouldn't be allowed to bend one or drive it in crooked.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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October 23rd, 2011 at 11:09:17 PM permalink
Quote: zippyboy

He got to be too much of a threat to authority, was crucified along side the other criminals of the day, went into a coma where his lifesigns weren't readable by the primitive medicine of the day, came out it 3 days later and freaked out the ignorant masses, who created fantastic stories to explain what they thought was divine interference.



In order to create a miracle such as resurrection, you need an identical twin no one has met.

Not that that happened, but hey it is at least in the area of worldly things that are not in the supernatural realm.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
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October 24th, 2011 at 7:06:38 AM permalink
Quote: ikilledjerrylogan

Does it take any less faith to believe that in the beginning there was nothing and then it exploded (banged)?

It doesn't take any "faith" at all. Edwin Hubble discovered this. It wasn't even a theory. Hubble discovered that the universe was flying apart. If you reverse time, you discover that at some point, the universe was all in one spot. The evidence created the theory, not the other way around.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
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October 24th, 2011 at 7:35:18 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

In order to create a miracle such as resurrection, you need an identical twin no one has met.

Not that that happened, but hey it is at least in the area of worldly things that are not in the supernatural realm.



What makes you think the entire resurrection wasn't just woven out of thin air?

Let's think about it. Christianity did indeed make inroads in both halves of the Roman Empire, despite prosecution and persecution from Byzanthium and Rome. It established major centers in both capitals,eventually, too. It basically performed a hostile, spiritual takeover of the whoel Empire. Impressive indeed.

But it made little to no headway in its place of birth.

This may seem contradictory, but it makes sense. For one thing, Jesus is sold as being the Messiah and the fulfillment of prophecy, or so I've been given to understand. Now, from what I recall of prophecies about the Messiah, Jesus wasn't it. there was no beating of swords into plowshares, for one thing. So the native Hebrew people wouldn't buy the Jesus-centric gosspel, not in large enough quantities.

Outisde Israel, though, what or who Jesus was doesn't matter and isn't well known. Whether he was the Messiah or not, descended from King David or not, is irrelevant. What would pagans, Zoroastrians and others care whether he was or was not the fullfilment of another religion's prophecies? But being told he was the incarnation of god as well as the son of god does sound impressive. Being told he could work miracles, like killing off innocent fig trees, or healing the sick, or walking on water, is even better.

But it isn't enough.

At the time people believed in magic, miracles and all other related subjects. Oracles, diviners, etc were common. Major civilizations like the Greeks even fought side by side with their gods, agaisnt other gods. One more man who could do miracles, even if amny of them, was impressive, sure, but hardly unique.

Ah, but raising himself from the dead, now that's really something. That's unique and that's something different than what everyone knows, even from other magic and miracle workers. Even Achilles was only nearly invulnerable. Jesus does him one better, allowing himself to be killed ina brutal fashiona dn then rising from the grave as though nothing bad happened.

I'm not sayign it was thought out like that, or even that this was the only factor, but it surely played a role along such lines. It's possible Jesus was in a comma rather than dead and he recovered from it. It's alos possible the resurrection was simply made up to enhance his rpestige. Power over life and death is reserved to the gods, after all.

The moral of the story is "Don't bother to examine a folly. Simply ask yourself what it accomplishes."
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
MrV
MrV
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
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October 24th, 2011 at 8:00:08 AM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

It doesn't take any "faith" at all. Edwin Hubble discovered this. It wasn't even a theory. Hubble discovered that the universe was flying apart. If you reverse time, you discover that at some point, the universe was all in one spot. The evidence created the theory, not the other way around.



Theory says that the universe was created 13.75 billion years ago, which is fine.

So, what was around BEFORE then?

Boggles the mind ...
"What, me worry?"
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
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October 24th, 2011 at 8:03:45 AM permalink
Nothing? No one knows, but there's plenty of theories. Unknown and cannot know is perfectly acceptable to me, requires no faith either.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
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October 24th, 2011 at 8:04:54 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

So, what was around BEFORE then?



We don't know for sure. We may never know for sure, either.

But as I like to say "Ignorance is only a lack of knowledge, not permission to fill in the blanks with whatever you want."
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
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October 24th, 2011 at 9:27:26 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

Theory says that the universe was created 13.75 billion years ago, which is fine.

So, what was around BEFORE then?

Boggles the mind ...

The answer is: I don't know.

And that's a perfectly fine answer.

If you want to speculate, then your question requires some clarification such as, what does "before" mean? Time is a measure of change. All change is measured by stuff made in the big bang. So is there even a "before"?
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
HotBlonde
HotBlonde
Joined: Feb 8, 2011
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October 24th, 2011 at 9:54:08 AM permalink
Quote: ikilledjerrylogan

Does it take any less faith to believe that in the beginning there was nothing and then it exploded (banged)?

The Big Bang Theory is just that - a theory. And logically it makes more sense than all of this magical religious talk. The thing is we can't know anything. Theories are theories because there is no way to actually prove them. But if I am to choose to believe in a world that was created in a bang versus one that was created by a god floating in the sky my wonderful and intelligent logical mind is going to choose the former.

Quote: FrGamble

One of my favorite sayings is, "The truth will out." It has proven itself over and over again. IMO it proves itself again in the case of Christianity.

So... if all this religious stuff is true then why has it not been proven as true?

Quote: zippyboy

I appreciate your being here Father, to give the opposing side, but....um, what's the name of this thread again?

I literally just laughed out loud reading this.

Quote: zippyboy

My belief is that Jesus (IF he existed at all) was a human carpenter who preached loving thy neighbor...

I have to say that I've found that when I think of Jesus and who he was I often don't even know if I believe that he existed in the first place. I thought I was the only one to think this.

Quote: zippyboy

...only stories told around a bonfire like the Native Indians here in America.

That's the thing... what religious followers don't seem to get is that these are all just stories no different than folklore, mythology, etc. The point is that these are all stories which could be entertaining but people believe this stuff to be actually true.

Quote: zippyboy

I personally like how Moses himself is supposed to have written the Old Testament, making himself the hero, kinda like some bloggers do today, except Moses' stories have proven to have staying power. The uneducated people of the day probably couldn't question what he wrote since they couldn't read. Children believed it like they do Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, but after getting older, they realize it's ridiculous and physically impossible. Every schoolkid should know by now it's impossible to rain everywhere in the world at the same time, especially enough to flood the planet up to the top of Everest. Or that a man can shake a staff and cause an entire sea to part for long enough to lead an army of Israelites to Canaan. Makes a good story though. Way to go, Moses!

But Christians have an excuse for everything, don't they? I appreciate their attempts at trying to do whatever it takes to cling to their religion, but at some point don't you think the truth would sink in? Spending your whole life defending your beliefs can be tiring.

Quote: zippyboy

My opinion is that with ALL the religions and beliefs of the world...if you guys can't get together and agree on things, they ALL lose credibility.

It is funny how people subscribed to their particular religion think theirs is the only truth.

Quote: zippyboy

I remind you that this is just a post in the "rag on religion" thread. You can console yourself that I'll probably burn in hell for this.

Again I am tickled with your humor. How have I not noticed your wit before? I'm loving reading your stuff. Did you say you were married? :)

Quote: MrV

Theory says that the universe was created 13.75 billion years ago, which is fine.

So, what was around BEFORE then?

Boggles the mind ...

All of life is mind-boggling. But I honestly think it is outside our realm as human beings to ever be able to actually understand what the hell is really going on. I appreciate that we as humans try to figure it all out but I do not believe that we ever can. A book I would like to pick up and start reading again (I only got maybe 1/6 of the way through) is WHAT THE BLEEP DO WE KNOW? I think the book came out after the documentary, but it'll just spin your mind. And although it's pretty out there it's actually not a hard read (with an open mind) and is not just print on paper but all the pages are colored with tons and tons of graphics. Fun stuff.

Quote: s2dbaker

The answer is: I don't know.

And that's a perfectly fine answer.

If you want to speculate, then your question requires some clarification such as, what does "before" mean? Time is a measure of change. All change is measured by stuff made in the big bang. So is there even a "before"?

You make a good point as humans created time and time doesn't actually exist.

As I've mentioned many times before I love reading Byron Katie. I just finished the 3rd of her books and I've taken away so much from what she says. Life is simple. I sit here and I breathe. The thing is I'm not breathing, my body is breathing itself. All the internal functions of my body do their thing without me getting in the way. I sit and can be in this moment and realize that any thoughts, words, stories, etc. are all make believe. They float through my mind but they are invisible and don't even really exist. All we have is this moment. Everything else is just commentary.
OFFICIALLY and justifiably reclaimed my title as SuperHotBlonde!

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