Do You Want an Afterlife?
How about you? You might not believe there is such a thing but would you want there to be such a thing?
It depends on what version of the afterlife awaits.
Frankly, I'm looking forward to something similar to the movie Defending Your Life. But I suspect the reality will be that we become worm food. Nothing more.
Quote: WizardHow does any given religion, other than Christianity, answer this question?
Hello, reincarnation.
Greetings, 72 virgins in paradise.
Ancient Hebrews: Two major schools of thought:
1. Pharisees (Heaven and Hell and Ressurection of the dead; Jesus would have been a Pharisee; Christianity is partially based on these beliefs with a big infusion of pagan ideas)
2. Sadducees: did not believe in an afterlife
(Those of you who read the bible are aware of situations where reincarnation and ghosts are mentioned or referred to.)
Ancient Greeks --- Hades, also shadows that walk the earth; a bunch of gods and a Mt Olympus
Romans: similar, also incorporates many other religions and concepts almost like the Messiah in Judaism (Mithras)
Hinduism - various; joining with the absolute (becoming one with "what is")
Budhism: reincarnation, liberation (I think it's called liberation)
Jehovah's Witnesses: No heaven or hell; resurrection at the end of time
Evangelical religions: Heaven, hell (with some exceptions)
Some "cults": various beliefs from no heaven/hell to everything under the sun and in the afterlife
Black Muslims: Spacecraft above earth with aliens
Scientology: Aliens, spacecrafts, nano-beings inhabiting us and a host of other things; kind of / sort of reincarnation / superpowers for the elite
Muslims: Afterlife of Heaven / hell and an end of times belief
New Age Beliefs: Everything under, over, in, and in between almost everything above
Now, as I said, I'm pulling these up quickly from memory. I am sure if someone researches afterlife they can come up with distinct ideas. I just don't have the time. I use writing here as a break from writing my other stuff. (This also tends to be slightly more fun at times.)
While I was in Palm Springs a couple of weeks ago, I breezed through Eben Alexander's (a prominent neuroscientist) book, "Proof of Heaven" and found it intriguing but a little bit too biased.
My daughter came up with an intriguing idea that when you die, you go into a dream state where you believe you are where you think you are. That is, if you believe that you will find 72 virgins, your mind will go into a state where you actually have a "dream" where you beleive that is what is happening. We know that we can have dreams that compress time substantially, so perhaps the afterlife we might "experience" might be something in the 7-8 minutes on our way to brain-death. I dunno. I have no knowledge of the mechanics of the brain that would do that, but not even the best neurologists do.
Quote: FrankScobleteOff the top of my head:
Ancient Hebrews: Two major schools of thought:
1. Pharisees (Heaven and Hell and Ressurection of the dead; Jesus would have been a Pharisee; Christianity is partially based on these beliefs with a big infusion of pagan ideas)
Actually, a lot of Eastern ideas. Christianity adopted and kept a wallop of Paganism in spite of Jesus, not because of Jesus. In speaking of a man born blind, and as to how he entered the world as such, he hints at reincarnation. And "what you reap = what you sow" is Karma, Karmic.
Quote: Frank
Hinduism - various; joining with the absolute (becoming one with "what is")
Budhism: reincarnation, liberation (I think it's called liberation)
Both believe in reincarnation: reincarnation is the "process of Samsara" - the seemingly relentless cycle of birth, death and suffering, finally leading to Nirvana (the Heaven of full knowledge, realization and comfort).
I used to have a screensaver that continuously scrolled, "The suffering ends at the moment of death...until then, the agony just goes on and on and on and on...." Few appreciated the black humor in it, and it kept people out of my office in my absence. I switched to Dilbert. But actually, the belief here is that the suffering ends at the entrance into Nirvana. Graduating after many lifetimes of experiencing the school of hard knocks. And disembodied but somewhat available between lives (see this book by Marc Barone, who actually works as a waiter at the Fiesta Henderson steakhouse when not writing of interactions of his mother's ghost. An interesting and enjoyable read.)
As for the 72 virgins, I have a problem with that. Where does my 1st wife go? What do women get, Chippendales? And what if you don't want a virgin, but a real Freak who know how to xxxx a mean yyyy? So, killing people of other faiths (infidels) gets you ladies and wine in heaven all sounds pretty carnal and unspiritual to me, the "booze and broads" lure to subscribe to this set of doctrines when a good trip to Vegas or Bangkok will do ya.
I don't have a real problem with beliefs I've long since discounted as codswallop. I can see reincarnation, and being disembodied until you become incarnate again. And different people have such different baggage, outlook, skills, and personalities within the same culture, they must have come with a lot of stuff from various other places.
I think the 72 virgin idea is a form of adolescent thnking --- wish fulfillment if you will.
If we look at religion as the growth of a human being we can make assumptions that we have an infancy where things are conceived and grow, an adolescence where we see aggressiveness, sometimes unrestrained violence and strong sexual desires; adulthood where a certain calming and live-and-let-live approach appears, and old age where the institution itself is highly critical of itself.
Male adolescents want to be big shots in the eyes of the girls. If adolescents were given experienced women, it might cause them some mental anguish since they really don't have any idea of what the heck they are doing. No teenage boy wants to be sexually looked down upon so he fantasizes that he will go to a heaven where he will indeed be a "big shot" in every sense of those words with girls who are fresh and innocent.
Adolescent boys drive fast, drink in excess, have fights .... and some of them strap bombs on themselves to blow themselves into a heaven where all those girls await them.
Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.
Quote: MrVCall me realistic, but I'd much prefer to bed a willing, knowledgeable, worldly woman than a clueless virgin.
Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.
True. You might end up with a little old lady in the afterlife if you're not more specific.
Quote: FrankScobleteThis is just an analogy and as we know analogies tend to break down somewhat in the face of the real thing --- but here goes:
I think the 72 virgin idea is a form of adolescent thnking --- wish fulfillment if you will.
If we look at religion as the growth of a human being we can make assumptions that we have an infancy where things are conceived and grow, an adolescence where we see aggressiveness, sometimes unrestrained violence and strong sexual desires; adulthood where a certain calming and live-and-let-live approach appears, and old age where the institution itself is highly critical of itself.
Male adolescents want to be big shots in the eyes of the girls. If adolescents were given experienced women, it might cause them some mental anguish since they really don't have any idea of what the heck they are doing. No teenage boy wants to be sexually looked down upon so he fantasizes that he will go to a heaven where he will indeed be a "big shot" in every sense of those words with girls who are fresh and innocent.
Adolescent boys drive fast, drink in excess, have fights .... and some of them strap bombs on themselves to blow themselves into a heaven where all those girls await them.
I can't help myself, every time I hear about the religion that brags about the 72 virgins, all I can think about is they want to become americans.
A tasteless joke: Two muzzies talking one pulls out a picture of his son and tells the other this is my son, he is a martyr,
so the other one pulls out a photo of his son and says this is my son he is a martyr also, the first one says tsk,tsk they blow up so fast don't they?
religion on the planet, Joseph Campbell. When you're
born your consciousness comes out of a larger consciousness,
and when your body dies, your consciousness goes back
to where it came from. It's really that simple. This is the
basis of every religion, without all the added whistles and
bells of virgins and meeting your grandparents and ever
lasting torture or reward. Which is all just silly politics, really,
meant to exalt the priests and keep the rabble in line.
Occam's Razor is usually the right answer for most things. In
other words, the easiest and most logical assumption is usually
the correct one.
Religion was created so the poor don't eat the rich.
To sum up my theory 'what do you do when you run out of virgins', sounds like a bad day to me if that is what turned your crank.
Quote: boymimboMy thought on this is if there are such things as near-death experiences that science does not or cannot explain, then you have to open up the idea of an afterlife as being possible. Now, I don't think it's a Christian afterlife with pearly gates and St. Peter awaiting to let you in, but an afterlife none the less.
While I was in Palm Springs a couple of weeks ago, I breezed through Eben Alexander's (a prominent neuroscientist) book, "Proof of Heaven" and found it intriguing but a little bit too biased.
My daughter came up with an intriguing idea that when you die, you go into a dream state where you believe you are where you think you are. That is, if you believe that you will find 72 virgins, your mind will go into a state where you actually have a "dream" where you beleive that is what is happening. We know that we can have dreams that compress time substantially, so perhaps the afterlife we might "experience" might be something in the 7-8 minutes on our way to brain-death. I dunno. I have no knowledge of the mechanics of the brain that would do that, but not even the best neurologists do.
I've had this very idea about an afterlife. A dreamlike state certainly explains near death experiences.
Personally, I just wanna live forever. Literally. Although I doubt anyone would want to live to the end of the universe, but it would certainly be cool to watch the night sky change as Andromeda collides with the Milky Way. I'm sure if someone could live forever, they'd want to end their life after a few thousand years.
Quote: ewjones080
Personally, I just wanna live forever. Literally.
What makes you think you don't live forever, just
not in the way you think. The 'you' that you think
you are doesn't exist, that's what Buddha teaches.
The thing that animates you has always been here
and will always be here.
Quote: EvenBobWhat makes you think you don't live forever, just
not in the way you think. The 'you' that you think
you are doesn't exist, that's what Buddha teaches.
The thing that animates you has always been here
and will always be here.
Wow. Easily *this* is the best of EvenBob. And it took him 12,298 posts to pull it off.
Quote: FrankScobleteRemember, it is not what you actually believe but what you would like. What you would want: An afterlife or no afterlife?
But Frank, it's a fantasy question. You're asking do we
want a fantasy and the answer is, who wouldn't. All
talk of an afterlife is pure conjecture, pure wishful
thinking. It has no basis in reality.
Quote: FrankScobleteBlack Muslims: Spacecraft above earth with aliens
I think you mean the Nation of Islam. Not all black Muslims are followers of the Nation.
Quote: boymimboMy daughter came up with an intriguing idea that when you die, you go into a dream state where you believe you are where you think you are....
I have a similar belief, scientifically based mind you. To spare the body any pain, it releases a flood of dopamine. As I wrote in another post in another thread, that combined with a dying brain could cause some very believable delusions. It would be no surprise if whatever the afterlife belief was the context of the delusion. A different sense of time elapse could cause the delusion to seem very long.
Quote: PaigowdanAs for the 72 virgins, I have a problem with that.
I think you have to die a martyr to get the 72 virgins. There are lots of questions I could ask, but one is do we get our virginity back in the afterlife?
Quote: petroglyphReligion was created so the poor don't eat the rich.
Yes, and to alleviate existential angst.
Quote: WizardI think you have to die a martyr to get the 72 virgins. There are lots of questions I could ask, but one is do we get our virginity back in the afterlife?
Who would want their virginity back in the afterlife? Sure, the first time was exciting, but man, it was not particularly good or memorable. My goal in the afterlife is to know what I'm doing.
Quote: 24BingoThe whole "72 virgins" thing is blown way out of proportion. If you read the relevant verses and hadiths (the one containing the number being accompanied by a note questioning its authenticity in the oldest extant source), mentions of virginal companions are usually part of a list of exaggerated earthly pleasures, and their own beauty is also exaggerated to the point that, if taken literally, they would become grotesque
And Priapic for men.
Listen, - the virgins are described therein are as girls of beauty and grace, even taken literally - and not of grotesqueness. Fair, clear skin, radiant, and beautiful. To say otherwise is to say these Holy books describe these heavenly broads as ugly as dogs - or grotesque. Now which one is it?
So now I get it. If taken literally, you will then be deceived by it. We associate deception from the deceiver down below, not from above.
Yet Holy books are to be taken seriously and literally by a religion's practitioners as the word of Allah, as dictated to Mohammed through angels, and in the old and new Testament to Abraham et al on up for Christians.
And so the books are to be taken more seriously and literally - just like a surgical student takes his medical textbooks seriously and literally. Aren't we taught to not take our Holy books seriously, and with Gravitas, instead of lightly and not seriously. When we get told, "This is the word of God, - but you got to fudge it a bit because it isn't that accurate or all that clear as he wrote it," a can of worms is opened in terms of credibility. Which one is it here - take the word of God literally, and seriously when told to you, or to not take His Word literally from the mouth of God - but to fudge it and use all sorts of interpretations of man on it?
Do note there is a ton of violence and calls to slaughter of non-believers, and members of other faiths, as infidels and dogs, in plain black and white; huge numbers and extremes of violent commands and of contempt are listed in these holy books. When they take this seriously and literally as written deliberately, trouble happens. We see it on CNN.
Quote: 24Bingo- the point is just that heaven is unimaginably good. It's my understanding very few Muslims, even the most literal-minded ones regarding other aspects of their religion, take this literally;....
I would hope this to be the case; it is absurd to assume fornication is your reward.
Buddhist and some Eastern religions describe Heaven and the afterlife in conceptual terms, and in terms of achieving higher consciousness and awareness above visceral pleasures and earthly carnality as the goal.
It implies that everything would be different. A different life.
As if that life ends and a new one begins. It just does seem realistic.
I would rather remain living after death.
Quote: PaigowdanAnd Priapic for men.
Listen, - the virgins are described therein are as girls of beauty and grace, even taken literally - and not of grotesqueness. Fair, clear skin, radiant, and beautiful. To say otherwise is to say these Holy books describe these heavenly broads as ugly as dogs - or grotesque. Now which one is it?
So now I get it. If taken literally, you will then be deceived by it. We associate deception from the deceiver down below, not from above.
Yet Holy books are to be taken seriously and literally by a religion's practitioners as the word of Allah, as dictated to Mohammed through angels, and in the old and new Testament to Abraham et al on up for Christians.
And so the books are to be taken more seriously and literally - just like a surgical student takes his medical textbooks seriously and literally. Aren't we taught to not take our Holy books seriously, and with Gravitas, instead of lightly and not seriously. When we get told, "This is the word of God, - but you got to fudge it a bit because it isn't that accurate or all that clear as he wrote it," a can of worms is opened in terms of credibility. Which one is it here - take the word of God literally, and seriously when told to you, or to not take His Word literally from the mouth of God - but to fudge it and use all sorts of interpretations of man on it?
Do note there is a ton of violence and calls to slaughter of non-believers, and members of other faiths, as infidels and dogs, in plain black and white; huge numbers and extremes of violent commands and of contempt are listed in these holy books. When they take this seriously and literally as written deliberately, trouble happens. We see it on CNN.
I would hope this to be the case; it is absurd to assume fornication is your reward.
Buddhist and some Eastern religions describe Heaven and the afterlife in conceptual terms, and in terms of achieving higher consciousness and awareness above visceral pleasures and earthly carnality as the goal.
I was taught that holy books, including the bible, were part history, part allegorical, all intended to teach by example and illustration, and a transcription of oral tribal lore, not literally The Word Of God. That still works for me.
In the spirit of the OP, what I hope for in the afterlife is a return to higher consciousness as a knowing part of the river of the universe. Assumption acknowledged that there is one to return to, and that I came from it in the first place. Higher conciousness in contemplation and joy free from earthly concerns and troubles, but not an environment without its changes and surprises. I would ideally see a return to the innocence and joy of first discoveries tempered by omniscience and maturity. And lots of sex and chocolate. :D
Then again, I also "want" to be able to control / influence the dice when I play craps.
Alas, what I want and what I get are two completely different things.
Dan's theory of reincarnation:
1. Between lives, we go to the "Dealer's break room" - to get assigned our next "table of life" by the shift manager of Death.
2. Abusive, bullying, molesting people get reincarnated as a female into a poor family in an oppressive Islamic country, and have to carry out a Malala Yousafzai-like feat of integrity and courage to raise up your soul. You get shot for just trying to improve your lot in life. This is like going to the shift office for a write up. you don't want to go there.
3. Helpful, considerate people who have integrity and fair-play in business, have many friends, and help many people go to the top, where they get born into a loving wealthy Japanese or American family, and get a shot at becoming Alan Mulally or the president of Sony. This is like going to an easy Three Card poker table with a gracious player who tips you $25 a hand.
4. Regular people go back to a Blackjack table, thinking "my lot is a boring, dead-end grind" and wallow there for eons.
5. Many who get to the top often become corrupt and indulgent, and fall from grace like a brick off a building. See you on a jammed up crap table filled with shot-takers who give you hell.
Just a theory.
Quote: PaigowdanI don't think it is a question of wanting one as much as we'll just be stuck with one, as our assignment. Finding ourselves alive we are stuck being alive, going through either houses of horror or charmed castles, depending on how we get it together.
Dan's theory of reincarnation:
1. Between lives, we go to the "Dealer's break room" - to get assigned our next "table of life" by the shift manager of Death.
2. Abusive, bullying, molesting people get reincarnated as a female into a poor family in an oppressive Islamic country, and have to carry out a Malala Yousafzai-like feat of integrity and courage to raise up your soul. You get shot for just trying to improve your lot in life. This is like going to the shift office for a write up. you don't want to go there.
3. Helpful, considerate people who have integrity and fair-play in business, have many friends, and help many people go to the top, where they get born into a loving wealthy Japanese or American family, and get a shot at becoming Alan Mulally or the president of Sony. This is like going to an easy Three Card poker table with a gracious player who tips you $25 a hand.
4. Regular people go back to a Blackjack table, thinking "my lot is a boring, dead-end grind" and wallow there for eons.
5. Many who get to the top often become corrupt and indulgent, and fall from grace like a brick off a building. See you on a jammed up crap table filled with shot-takers who give you hell.
Just a theory.
So what did you do to be assigned this life?
I thought several times I must have done something really bad in a past life with the hand I was dealt till I turned 30 [decades ago]
Quote: MrVTo answer Frank's original question: Yes, I "want" there to be an afterlife.
Then again, I also "want" to be able to control / influence the dice when I play craps.
Alas, what I want and what I get are two completely different things.
I mostly want to live well in this one.
That afterlife is like Forests box of chocolates.
ot, did you see the dna results on sasquatch reported?
Quote: petroglyph
So what did you do to be assigned this life?
My guess is that I murdered a priest.
Well, not really.
I will say this: I was nearly bled to death by shot-takers while holding onto a bamboo stick that I was not allowed to use in self-defense. Seven years of this incarceration, followed by partial liberation - a "seven-then-out."
Actually, I was told by a mystic [?] that I was an accountant in Switzerland, 1700's, and that I damn nearly killed a home invader trying to rob me one time, going too far. Now I am a weakling with a heart condition. Must have stabbed him in the chest.
the way I look at it is:
E=mc2 - everything that is here on earth is here.. nothing is new (created) nor destroyed it simply changes form... the spirit/soul is a form of energy like any other- this energy can as well as any other form of energy- change or form or go wherever.. - ... why cant you go on and live again in a new form? with this energy that never actually goes away? - science says it cant.. but I believe the soul/being to be an actual thing- humans are not automatic in how they treat the world....
so, yea, in my train of thought- its like the song "Highway Man" by the highway men-
In the words of General Patton:
"So forever in the future
Shall I battle as of yore,
Dying to be born a fighter
But to die again once more."
--Karl Marx
Given the above: is the belief in an afterlife akin to an oxycontin addiction?
Quote: MrV"Religion is the opium of the people."
--Karl Marx
Given the above: is the belief in an afterlife akin to an oxycontin addiction?
No. Religions that promise heaven through easy steps is the smack.
Religions that indicate that you are to be reincarnated are simply saying "Expect more of the same shit until you get it right."
Quote: MrV"Religion is the opium of the people."
--Karl Marx
Given the above: is the belief in an afterlife akin to an oxycontin addiction?
So are you implying Marx was religious or on dope?
You just don't hear much about the manifesto anymore, but it's alive and doing well.
I think opiates are much closer related to death than life or afterlife, the destroyer of lives and souls.
In my opinion many religions are a blueprint for morality, much needed in a crazy world filled with carnivores.
Interesting, the origin and nature of mad cow disease or spinal encephalopathy.
Next question.
Quote: kewljWhat makes you think this isn't the afterlife?? Or one of a number of stops. I believe we all were somewhere prior and this is a just an intermediate stop for where we are heading next.
Good point! This is a midlife, one of many, possibly. Or a low life. We've all met a few on this planet. Our thread "Discussions on the suspension list" is our police blotter, and it is one of our biggest and longest threads. That says a lot. We have a Black book. We need it.
Quote: kewljAnd based on life here and how the majority of people behave, I am guessing this stopping point, is fairly low or in the middle of the chain.
Fur Sure! Everyone has issues, everyone is mashug, we are here for a reason. Actually, two reasons:
1. Payback/attachment;
2. Lessons of some nature. A lesson is repeated until it is learned. Earth may be the nursery school of the universe.
Quote: kewljIn other words, I believe we all screwed up somewhere prior, to 'earn' our place here. And your behavior here will dictate whether your next stop is a move up a notch or down or down a notch.
And...skipping a grade or getting expelled.
"If there were no God, it would have been necessary to invent him"
Quote: kewljWhat makes you think this isn't the afterlife?? Or one of a number of stops. I believe we all were somewhere prior and this is a just an intermediate stop for where we are heading next. And based on life here and how the majority of people behave, I am guessing this stopping point, is fairly low or in the middle of the chain. In other words, I believe we all screwed up somewhere prior, to 'earn' our place here. And your behavior here will dictate whether your next stop is a move up a notch or down or down a notch.
It might be, it might not be. The sets of this life and other lives do not overlap. Since my awareness is 1:1 with this life, it does not overlap either.
Since all I can know is limited, what is unknowable is immaterial. For all I know, the reward is for the most other souls murdered. Kill the most of these wretched souls and gain immortality in the next life! There's no evidence for or against any of it, nor any way of divining any of it, so there's no point in wanting or not wanting afterlife.
Quote: MrV"Religion is the opium of the people."
I think it was opiate.
Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.
Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right
