My religious beliefs... or lack thereof

Back when I was about 10 years old I had a paper route. Me and a few other guys would meet up at about 4:30-5 AM and load up our bikes to go deliver papers. I made friends with one of the guys that also had a paper route, Wayne... that's how we met.

Up to this point in my life I had been raised completely devoid of religion in any form although I was a 4.0 student and had literary and math skills beyond anyone else my age due to intense additional studies at home via my mother. I was invited to go to church with my friend Wayne and his family one day so I took them up on it. It was a southern Baptist church and oh BOY could I tell these people were heavy duty into this stuff! By about the 2nd or 3rd week of going with them, the Pastor gave the ol' "Fire and brimstone burning in hell you vile sinner" speech! He gave a graphic lecture in which he described hell as a physical place (under evil Satan's leadership) and described it well enough that you would have thought he had gotten the guided tour of the place! He went on for about an hour or two and went into great details of Heaven, Hell, the pitfalls of hell, etc., etc. He topped it off with how if you just play your cards right, when you croak, you go to this other place that is the EXACT opposite of hell where all is wonderful and you get to hang out and have tea and crumpets with Jesus, etc., etc....

I was alarmed, devastated even! How had I not heard about all this before now if it was all so critical!!!! I went to my mother, just about crying and asked about this whole thing. She instructed me to not believe everything I hear at face value and to study extensively on my own, making an objective evaluation rather than being coerced into any belief system. Still quite alarmed, I read the bible and studied various religious outlooks for some years to try to come up with conclusions. The more I read and evaluated in detail, the more I came to realize that a whole lot of this just didn't add up and make sense and there was much that was either open to interpretations or flat out falsehoods that didn't pan out. There were also "differing views" of various religions that completely contradicted one another. Eventually and not without intense studies on the subject, I ended up going with the idea of religion as being "War and genocide throughout recorded history based on differing imaginary friends".

At this point in time all these years later, scientific studies and exploration, physical evidence, forensic evidence and empirical data all seem to show that the bible was written by mere mortal human beings who put together this book based on their very limited understanding of the universe around them at that period in history.

Organized religion even went out of their way to stifle and hold back scientific studies and advancement for as long as they possibly could for they feared it would undermine them or disprove them! When Galileo said, "Uhmm, gee guys... it really looks like earth is not the center of the universe and that it's a planet not unlike the other planets that orbit the sun" and put this in writing, he was immediately put under house arrest and told that if he did not retract his statement, he would be imprisoned, tortured or put to death for "Crimes against God"!

There were others, why just look up Hypatia of ancient Alexandria. She was a scholar, a mathematician and worse yet a WOMAN scholar whom the early Christian movement (around 400 AD) saw as a threat so she was brutally killed by a mob run by a guy who was later named a SAINT!hahaha PRAISE JESUS! Scientific advancement was seen as a threat to the absolute power that organized religion had at the time for fear it may come up with findings that would undermine them, so they dealt with these threats severely.


Now we know. The earth is not the center of the universe. As a matter of fact our entire solar system is but a tiny speck among billions of other stars and solar systems on the outskirts of one galaxy. Our one galaxy is but another tiny speck in a sea of galaxies, hundreds of billions of them! Our entire solar system is about 4.6 billion years old in a universe that is estimated to be over 14 billion years old. Not only is none of this information in the bible (as it would have been if God himself had a hand in writing this book, I mean, why would he leave this stuff out, right?) but the bible's account for the "beginnings" are completely different from what we now know for a fact to be true derived by scientific method rather than myth and superstition. No, the bible was obviously written by mortal human beings without any help from "divinity" because it lays things out in accordance with what man's concepts and levels of understanding of the world around us were at the time. If God himself had truly "inspired" what was written in the bible his knowledge base of the universe would have provided information that went beyond the very limited understanding of the universe that humans had at the time. If God created the universe specifically for man whom he created in his image, then what the heck is all that extra real estate for?

What if man's archaic beliefs that we humans are the sole "masters of the universe" since we have a "soul" and we were created in the image of a divinity by a divinity are completely false? What if other life forms are relatively prolific throughout the universe as the staggering mathematical logic of it all would dictate? We have proven that the "building blocks of life" are in fact free floating in space from analysis of metrological specimens. In our solar system it took 4.6 billion years to come up with a (somewhat) technologically advanced species (us)... but other places in the universe have had a considerable head start on us, leaving lots of options for other intelligent life in the universe. It becomes pretty clear that all is not what it seems or what is depicted in the bible and in the rhetoric of religion.

Let's take a moment to step away from the logical factors and the scientific evidence factors that all add to up an overwhelming result and take a hard look at the geographical and common sense factor!


Interestingly enough, back in biblical times a particular geographical region, namely Europe and the Middle East, only knew Christianity. If almighty Jesus who was the son of God and could do miracles and had God backing him up with all this, why weren't they able to reach the Americas, where Native Americans had no knowledge of Jesus, had never read a bible had no concept of God in the manner that the Christians did? How about Australia who had only the aborigines for a very long time before any whites ever came there? Nope... they never heard about Jesus until a white man came ashore waving a bible around at them! The truth is that many of these people had never seen a white man or some of the more advanced technology they had (at least compared to their own); They were unlike anything these people had ever seen or known of and some of these people even thought the white man WAS some sort of God THEMSELVES (at first)! They got their rude awakening once they got fully indoctrinated in Jesus... and then conquered.

Communication capabilities of God and Jesus should be miraculous and all that, correct? If Christianity was a man-made thing it would be limited to the geographical regions in which it could be spread to those in contact with each other (often by force by the way, get in on the Jesus bandwagon or die by our hand because we are in good with Jesus), which is exactly how it went.

Now if God and Jesus handled it all, well that would be different, would it not? All the people's of the world would have had Jesus and God show up to them all about the same time as the capabilities of such miracle-performing beings could EASILY do, right? How could the geographical separation of humans on the planet be any issue at all for a being that created the entire universe and runs every little detail and aspect of it? If a supreme being created and runs things in a galaxy 6 billion lightyears from ours for example and runs the entire universe for that matter then how could communications on one tiny speck on the outer edge of the milky way galaxy be any problem at for them? How could the internet, twitter and Facebook today have more communications capability worldwide than God and Jesus did back then, right?

· Christianity spread by word of mouth, by a movement that gathered steam as it went. It essentially started as a small cult and grew, spreading rather quickly because to not convert to Christianity back in those days (or to whatever "powers that be") often meant bad things were going to happen to you! God and Jesus did not personally kill you for not going with the whole Jesus plan... mortal humans did as they were "doing God's work". The expansion of Christianity was however limited to the geographical regions it could spread to easily enough via the conventional means of mortal humans at the time.

After white Europeans started coming to the new world, the Americas they pushed it hard there also--- Why hadn't Jesus and God have already BEEN to the Americas and told Native Americans all about Jesus though????

That is unless you want to go with some of Joseph Smith's little twists on it all because he proclaimed the garden of Eden was actually in Missouri and that God himself told him that! This only adds to the contradiction factor though... and we are sticking with the common sense angle on this.

Common sense tells us that obviously Facebook, Twitter, Satellite TV and modern communications mediums work much more efficiently than God and Jesus did "back in the day", which is odd because you wouldn't think that God and Jesus, who created and run the entire universe would have geographical obstacles in communications on one tiny little planet and that is something only mere mortal humans would find an obstacle during these time periods!


The truth is that geographical separations of humanity allowed for completely different belief systems to form in geographical regions isolated from one another that were completely foreign to each other. Man's curiosity and trying to make sense of the world around him, explain elements of nature in the world around him led to many varied unfounded, unproven theories that became bona fide religions over time, all with supernatural, mythical qualities about them because they lacked rational or scientific explanations of the world around them.


Had I written this publicly just a few hundred years ago, I would have been burned at the stake.

You are SOOOOO going to burn in a lake of fire for all eternity!

And so am I :)

Quite a few scientists and theologians would take all the above written gibberish and reduce it to the pile it is. This is not the place to find truth, it is a gambling blog, filled with selfish people doing selfish things. You are certainly preaching to the choir here! Thread Blocked, (thanks again JB!)

Quote: IvanYerkanoff

... where all is wonderful and you get to hang out and have tea and crumpets with Jesus, etc.

Wait a sec...
Tea and crumpets? Why wasn't I told about that? Damn! I mean darn!

Quote: IvanYerkanof

Had I written this publicly just a few hundred years ago, I would have been burned at the stake.

Aren't you glad you waited?



As I've said main times, God is an invention of man, not the other way around.

Very well written. Welcome aboard.

*Gasp* Richard Dawkins, when did you join the site!?

That almost sounds like a passage out of the God Delusion. Although, Dawkins might be just a little better.

I was raised Catholic, went to church a few times, not a lot. Never read the Bible, but had a first communion. Maybe because I wasn't brainwashed, just exposed is why I was able to question the whole idea of God. I can still remember the exact moment, I questioned my belief in God, at age 13.

I was hanging around with my friends out on the front deck of my house on a warm spring evening. As I looked up at the stars it just kinda hit me: "Do I believe in God?" I became Atheist in that moment.

1966 just paroled from USAF went to Mass at downtown Cathedral in Baltimore. Rode by it last week, big plaque saying it was 1st cathedral in USA.
Me and my girlfriend Patsy sitting in pews when I noticed some hippies at side of altar. Long haired dude played guitar and some chick starting singing. Patsy saw my shocked look and whispered it was a folk mass. Never been in the Cathedral before so I checked out stations of the cross, crucifix, etc.
I had dipped into the holy water on the way in. Looked Catholic for sure. But when the priest turned around started saying stuff in English, I picked up a hymnal to see if it had catholic church stamped inside.
I mean no dominus ebiscum, et cum spiri tu tuo. or as us kids used to say dominoes and biscuits. I mean eating meat on Fridays and now this. I took 2 years of Latin at Mt St Joe's. AMO AMAS AMAT WTF !!!!!!!!!!!

That was it for me. I mean I had doubts even as a kid. Unknown to me I had an uncle who was the priest at St Thomas Aquanis grade school. Unknown to me until I was in my 30's. But in confession he would ask me about my dad, Uncle George, etc.
For you non Catholics, in confession, you are not talking to the priest but to God. I always left the confession weighed down by at least 30 hail Mary's and 10 Our father's I had to do, but also wondering why God was asking about my family. If God did not know, how the hell was I supposed to.

Buzz -

Without realizing it, you were confessing to your uncle, and he was asking about your family (and maybe even your opinion of himself).

So basically, he was using his position, and your trust, to get the family dirt.

Why am I not shocked?

DJ Oh yee of little faith. Next you will be spreading rumors about what priests and altar boys do
after consuming the left over wine from communion !

Quote: DeMango

Quite a few scientists and theologians would take all the above written gibberish and reduce it to the pile it is. This is not the place to find truth, it is a gambling blog, filled with selfish people doing selfish things. You are certainly preaching to the choir here! Thread Blocked, (thanks again JB!)

Uh, lets see, this is in the "Off-Topic>>Religion" forum. So what do you expect? You don't have to announce when you block a thread. You do know that, right??? JB can show you how if you don't know.

Maybe you just wanted to display to the entire forum how big of a dick you are though. If that's the case then I completely understand.

Quote: texasplumr

Maybe you just wanted to display to the entire forum how big of a dick you are though. If that's the case then I completely understand.

George Takei had a nice simile for that. It was funny too. I wish I could remember it verbatim. I'll have to search my facebook history and make sure I get it right.

So you are telling me that God created Twitter and Facebook? Is Zuckerberg actually Jesus and he was sent down to spread the word of 12-16yr old girls across the world? Why can't God figure out how to monetize mobile?

Wait a sec....

I thought Facebook was the evil work of Satan.

Quote: texasplumr

Maybe you just wanted to display to the entire forum how big of a dick you are though.

Five-day suspension.

Tea and crumpet?

I worship at a glittering cathedral without windows whose reward is hitting the Jackpot in god's own High Limit salon.

Well, slot machines are too high a house edge for me and rarely do high limit rooms have a craps table, they tell to go to the main casino even for high roller's craps.

Still, even if gamblers maintain some pretense about believing in religious dogma, they can still get lucky. There are no rulles about praying before you pull the slot machine's handle.

Bill Nye, The Science Guy, recently opined that raising children to believe in creationism was a waste of our valuable resources.

Perhaps we should amend all Fair Tales to end with a footnote: "She didn't... and you won't either".

Quote: IvanYerkanoff

There were others, why just look up Hypatia of ancient Alexandria. She was a scholar, a mathematician and worse yet a WOMAN scholar whom the early Christian movement (around 400 AD) saw as a threat so she was brutally killed by a mob run by a guy who was later named a SAINT!hahaha PRAISE JESUS! Scientific advancement was seen as a threat to the absolute power that organized religion had at the time for fear it may come up with findings that would undermine them, so they dealt with these threats severely.

Had I written this publicly just a few hundred years ago, I would have been burned at the stake.

There was a movie in Spanish and English about Hypatia a few years ago.

I am assuming that you are talking about St. Cyril. I am not sure that it is fair to say he was "running" the mob.

I am sure that every person on this forum know about Galileo Galilei being imprisoned for a good part of his life, and that scholars have been burned at the stake by the church, particularly Bruno. It is not much of an argument either for or against Christianity. All of history is full of stories of people who torture-murdered people who did not look like them or think like them. The Christian Church is part of history. We do not use the mass atrocities in the past decade in Africa or the atrocities in Cambodia or even the mass atrocities of WWII to condemn Africans, Cambodians or Germans as no longer acceptable members of humanity.

I would like to write a little bit about my religious beliefs and how I came to them but will have to do so at a later time - I'm heading out to Ireland for a pilgrimage soon. I do want to say that the OP is obviously a very intellegent person but I continue to be amazed at such elementary misconceptions concerning history and fundamental Christian teachings even from smart people who say they have seriously studied the issue. Oh well I'll keep trying and praying. It does make me wonder though how much our religious beliefs or lack thereof really come, not so much from the brain, but from the heart. What I mean is that I wonder if wanting to believe or not wanting to believe make a big impact in the decision for or against religion just as much as the philosophical arguments on both sides?

Anyway I would love to share a little of my journey sometime but right now have to make a journey myself. God Bless!

p.s. I find it interesting that someone mentioned looking at the stars made them an atheist, I imagine looking at the stars also makes a lot of people believers.

Paco Martin:

"There was a movie in Spanish and English about Hypatia a few years ago.

I am assuming that you are talking about St. Cyril. I am not sure that it is fair to say he was "running" the mob.

I am sure that every person on this forum know about Galileo Galilei being imprisoned for a good part of his life, and that scholars have been burned at the stake by the church, particularly Bruno. It is not much of an argument either for or against Christianity. All of history is full of stories of people who torture-murdered people who did not look like them or think like them. The Christian Church is part of history. We do not use the mass atrocities in the past decade in Africa or the atrocities in Cambodia or even the mass atrocities of WWII to condemn Africans, Cambodians or Germans as no longer acceptable members of humanity."




Why of course it is. Such things shouldn't exist in a world with an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful god, and for heaven's sake they wouldn't be performed in he/she/it's name, by he/she/it's very own representatives on earth.

What is *not acceptable* are the ridiculous, ancient, long-discounted ideas about the physical world.

Those two persecuted thinkers were not "mass atrocities", they were maligned under the official policy which at it's heart is anti-reason, anti-logic, and anti-science, and such ideas should be "accepted" to the extent belief in the Fairy God Mother, Santa Claus, and so forth are "accepted".

Quote: FrGamble

p.s. I find it interesting that someone mentioned looking at the stars made them an atheist, I imagine looking at the stars also makes a lot of people believers.

Well, I can certainly understand how one might look up at the stars in wonderment, and have no explanation to why they are there. I thought about how science was able to figure out these celestial bodies, numbered in the trillions, are trillions of miles away. This allowed me to appreciate the genius of people, instead of dismissing it to something otherworldly.

Quote: FrGamble

I would like to write a little bit about my religious beliefs and how I came to them but will have to do so at a later time - I'm heading out to Ireland for a pilgrimage soon. I do want to say that the OP is obviously a very intellegent person but I continue to be amazed at such elementary misconceptions concerning history and fundamental Christian teachings even from smart people who say they have seriously studied the issue. Oh well I'll keep trying and praying. It does make me wonder though how much our religious beliefs or lack thereof really come, not so much from the brain, but from the heart. What I mean is that I wonder if wanting to believe or not wanting to believe make a big impact in the decision for or against religion just as much as the philosophical arguments on both sides?

Anyway I would love to share a little of my journey sometime but right now have to make a journey myself. God Bless!

p.s. I find it interesting that someone mentioned looking at the stars made them an atheist, I imagine looking at the stars also makes a lot of people believers.

If you are like the typical believer, or cleric, it is likely you yourself have such elementary misconceptions. You likely are unaware that several of the early christian groups could not conceive of the evident schizophrenia of the OT and NT gods, one of which is a crazed, homicidal maniac, while the other (it is said) is all flowers and candy. If you are a Roman Catholic father, you should be aware that your church's uniquely ludicrous proscription against married priests was made for the usual base, crass reasons--control of property essentially--and that women held pastoral roles in the early church going back to at least the days of pre-Constantine.

You'd probably be unaware of the numerous, obvious mistranslations, transcription errors and so forth demonstrated by serious scholars such as Bart Ehrman. You'd also be unaware of the direct challenges to various supposed "facts" in the Bible, such as the fable of the Exodus (which serious, non-theological archeologists don't believe happened--at all).

You may be unaware, though you shouldn't be, that the early church envisioned a quick return of Christ, and only when that didn't pan out did the usual after-the-fact rationalizations begin, eventually crystalized by the Roman state into an institution that today is the largest private landowner in the United States (yes, THAT Catholic Church).

Finally, it should be noted that these "teachings" inarguably include such things as restricting the rights of two adults to marry if they so choose (today on gender grounds, in the past on racial grounds), ideological condemnations of sexual practices (one christian group loudly proclaims that "God hates Fags"--why is there revealed truth worse than your own?) and condoms are "sinful", bad, and even unhealthy--an outrageous claim that his killed numerous third world innocents.

Back to Baltimore after 30 years, decided to track down my first girlfriend Patsy Davidson. 25 years too late, dead of cancer at 47.

And my cousin Cookie, Annette Funicello look a like, who I had a big crush on. But she was my 1st cousin. Dead 2 years ago after lengthy battle with cancer. Was Head of nursing at Seton Hospital.

Me, pool hustler, collector for bookies, etc, still on the right side of grass at 72.

Kids in cancer ward of hospital.

Explain why and I might believe in GOD.

But forget that bullshit answer, GOD works in mysterious ways.

Buzz -

Your response borders on a personal / religious attack.

Please note that FrG respects the decisions and beliefs of non-believers and we should respect his, and those of other believers.


Debate? Sure. But no attacks.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Buzz -

Your response borders on a personal / religious attack.

Please note that FrG respects the decisions and beliefs of non-believers and we should respect his, and those of other believers.


Debate? Sure. But no attacks.

Is "your invisible bearded friend who lives on a cloud" permissible?

Quote: FrGamble

p.s. I find it interesting that someone mentioned looking at the stars made them an atheist, I imagine looking at the stars also makes a lot of
people believers.

If I know that billions of potato chips have been produced, the idea that some will appear to have images of Jesus or Mary, or Spongebob is actually likely.

So, billions of stars and planets give rise that some have life or intelligent life. If I just thought Earth was hanging out with the Sun in vast nothingness, life would be much more difficult to explain with randomness.

" Your response borders on a personal / religious attack. "

My post did not reflect upin the dignity of the Good Father.

Read it again Teddy I just stated my belief and what i will not accept as proof that I am wrong.

No more and no less !

Quote: s2dbaker

Is "your invisible bearded friend who lives on a cloud" permissible?

Since you quoted my entire post, I gotta assume that comment was directed at me.

I have no idea why, or what it means.

Review mine today. I am trying to be on my best behavior, but I am who I am.

Quote: RaspberryCheeseBlintz

If you are like the typical believer, or cleric, it is likely you yourself have such elementary misconceptions. You likely are unaware that several of the early christian groups could not conceive of the evident schizophrenia of the OT and NT gods, one of which is a crazed, homicidal maniac, while the other (it is said) is all flowers and candy. If you are a Roman Catholic father, you should be aware that your church's uniquely ludicrous proscription against married priests was made for the usual base, crass reasons--control of property essentially--and that women held pastoral roles in the early church going back to at least the days of pre-Constantine.

Sigh...most of what you bring up has been covered not only in various places on this forum but throughout history. The concept of rejecting the OT is called Marcionism and was rejected in the first centuries by the early Church but raises its ugly head still today through a misreading of the Hebrew Scriptures and inadequate understanding of the Bible's formation and interpretation (see your comments below for a good example of what I'm talking about).

Quote: raspberryCheeseBlintz

You'd probably be unaware of the numerous, obvious mistranslations, transcription errors and so forth demonstrated by serious scholars such as Bart Ehrman. You'd also be unaware of the direct challenges to various supposed "facts" in the Bible, such as the fable of the Exodus (which serious, non-theological archeologists don't believe happened--at all).

Oh yeah I wanted to mention your take on celibacy is too aggressive. Celibacy is not unique to Catholicism or Christianity and its origins are really in following the master Jesus Christ. However, you do a good job of showing how things can be twisted and contorted to fit our preconcieved opinions.

Quote: RCB

You may be unaware, though you shouldn't be, that the early church envisioned a quick return of Christ, and only when that didn't pan out did the usual after-the-fact rationalizations begin, eventually crystalized by the Roman state into an institution that today is the largest private landowner in the United States (yes, THAT Catholic Church).

This is the closest you come to what I can recognize as truth. The Church did think that Christ was coming back quickly and when it became obvious that this was not going to happen new thoughts in theology and morality began to be "crystalized" as you so well put it.

Quote: RCB

Finally, it should be noted that these "teachings" inarguably include such things as restricting the rights of two adults to marry if they so choose (today on gender grounds, in the past on racial grounds), ideological condemnations of sexual practices (one christian group loudly proclaims that "God hates Fags"--why is there revealed truth worse than your own?) and condoms are "sinful", bad, and even unhealthy--an outrageous claim that his killed numerous third world innocents.

double sigh...another example of how what is in our heart colors how you view things, and how I view things too. Without going into the issues you bring up and risk derailing this interesting thread let me say that the Church's teachings are based on the Scriptures, Tradition, and prayerful reflections on natural law. The Church's teachings are also based sincerely in love and what she thinks is truly best for the individual and society. I imagine you may vehemently disagree with that, but even though I couldn't disagree with you more I give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not telling me to use contraception and change the definition of marriage to hurt me and the world, even though that is what I think these secular "teachings" are doing.

Quote: buzzpaff

Back to Baltimore after 30 years, decided to track down my first girlfriend Patsy Davidson. 25 years too late, dead of cancer at 47.

And my cousin Cookie, Annette Funicello look a like, who I had a big crush on. But she was my 1st cousin. Dead 2 years ago after lengthy battle with cancer. Was Head of nursing at Seton Hospital.

Me, pool hustler, collector for bookies, etc, still on the right side of grass at 72.

Kids in cancer ward of hospital.

Explain why and I might believe in GOD.

But forget that bullshit answer, GOD works in mysterious ways.

I take Buzz's post as an honest expression of the very powerful argument against God based on evil in the world. I also think this kind of post is what is unique to this thread in that people are personally expressing their thoughts about their religious or lack there of views. This deeply personal and honest groaning is why I would hesitate to explain away or try to answer suffering. It is also why I think Jesus doesn't explain it away either but rather embraces and shares in our suffering with us. I think when I visit a cancer ward holding a hand and giving a shoulder to cry on is a better answer than the awful, "God works in mysterious ways." I might also ask how does non-belief in God help us to deal with and answer the mystery of evil and suffering? If there could be any helpful or hopeful explaination to be found outside of God, I might doubt.

An all powerful God of goodness is powerless to abolish pain, suffering and injustice. A lack of an all powerful God of goodness is also powerless to abolish pain, suffering and injustice.

Triple sigh.

Quote: FrGamble

I take Buzz's post as an honest expression of the very powerful argument against God based on evil in the world. I also think this kind of post is what is unique to this thread in that people are personally expressing their thoughts about their religious or lack there of views. This deeply personal and honest groaning is why I would hesitate to explain away or try to answer suffering. It is also why I think Jesus doesn't explain it away either but rather embraces and shares in our suffering with us. I think when I visit a cancer ward holding a hand and giving a shoulder to cry on is a better answer than the awful, "God works in mysterious ways." I might also ask how does non-belief in God help us to deal with and answer the mystery of evil and suffering? If there could be any helpful or hopeful explaination to be found outside of God, I might doubt.

My respect for you, Good Father, has gone up immensely with your reply. They say there are no atheists in foxholes. I will admit to
praying to God on two occasions. My daughter has pneumonia so bad they put her in a comma and had a machine breathe for her.
My prayer was not exactly honest as I told God if he would spare her, I would not burn down his churches. I was bluffing, I like to think.
The second time my wife was in a deep depression and I signed the papers for ECT. It usually works by the third treatment. They give up after 10. Josie came back to me after 8. Of course, after that I went back to being a non-believer.

Pascal's Wager is the only positive EV bet in the Theological House.

Quote: Mission146

Pascal's Wager is the only positive EV bet in the Theoogical House.

Too tired to Google, explain please THANKS

Quote: buzzpaff

Too tired to Google, explain please THANKS

Pascal felt that you either had to live as if you believed that God existed, or that he did not. He felt that no middle ground was possible. The argument was that if God existed and you lived your life as if he did exist, then you gained something. If you lived as if God did not exist, and he did you lose. If you lived as if God did not exist, and you were correct, you gain nothing. Therefore logically, you should live as if God existed because it had potential positive outcome, whereas living as an atheist had no positive outcome.

Except living a life as if God exists and it turns out you're wrong, you lose for not enjoying life to the fullest.

Thanks Paco I always think that if God did not exist, man would have a need to invent him.

I am sure it is not an original thought, just don't know where I might have heard or read it. Once again, you are the internet for a lot of us THANKS

Quote: s2dbaker

An all powerful God of goodness is powerless to abolish pain, suffering and injustice.

Where does this idea come from? Is it because you see pain, suffering and injustice and God isn't stopping it? If so, you're committing a logical fallacy.

Quote: s2dbaker

Triple sigh.

Triple drama.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

Where does this idea come from? Is it because you see pain, suffering and injustice and God isn't stopping it? If so, you're committing a logical fallacy.

It's probably not accurate to say God (of the Bible) stands by and does nothing about pain and suffering. There was that time he drowned most of the Earth.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Except living a life as if God exists and it turns out you're wrong, you lose for not enjoying life to the fullest.

It helps if you're Catholic, too.

Quote: FrGamble

It does make me wonder though how much our religious beliefs or lack thereof really come, not so much from the brain, but from the heart. What I mean is that I wonder if wanting to believe or not wanting to believe make a big impact in the decision for or against religion just as much as the philosophical arguments on both sides?

This is a very interesting question, makes me wish my brain was firing on more than three cylinders to discuss it. Here goes anyway...

Can feeling such as these reside anywhere but the heart? It would seem that first knowledge of theology, whenever you first hear of it, is processed by the brain but evokes a certain feeling in the heart where it lives for the rest of ever. For you, Father, I imagine hearing of Christ caused you to feel wonder, happiness, love, and that feeling filled your heart. Wouldn't you say your love of Christ lives more in your heart than your head? You're a straight shooter, and I'm sure you'd admit that you sometimes have questions, things that don't jive yet in your mind, but your heart is set and that's the path you will follow. For me, those same theological ideas processed by my brain filled my heart with nothing. Regardless if Christianity, Catholisism, Bhuddism, Islam, Longhouse, whatever, while I found interesting parts and a draw to learn more, it's pure mental curiosity. None of that which reaches my heart sticks, it has no staying power. Only when learning of the natural explanation, the random, evolutionary theories of how and why we are here, did that gong go off in my head and resonate with my heart. I likewise still have questions and doubts, but my heart is set on my athieist path and that is the one I follow.

I wonder, actually, now I deeply wonder, how much people can control what they believe. You might be able to break me down with constant preaching to where I'd agree to be theist, but could I change my heart? I'm not so sure, and I think I'd have an infinitely easier chance of recruiting PaiGowDan to my Blackjack counting team than to convert you to Athieism. I just don't think it can work that way.

Has anyone ever dealt with this? I'd be interested to hear. I can't imagine someone being devoid of God, yet desperately yearning to be theist. I likewise can't imagine someone's heart being filled with the love of God, but them demanding to be athieist.

Quote: Mission146

It helps if you're Catholic, too.

Did not help me. 11 years of Catholic school. Still can not comprehend pedophiles being moved from parish to parish in search of new victims. And Bishops helping along the way ? Plus parishes declaring bankruptcy to not pay the molested ones !

I have known some EVIL dudes in my life. One would even occasionally do " a piece of work" when needed. But none of them ever hurt a child, other than perhaps making them an orphan.

Quote: buzzpaff

Did not help me. 11 years of Catholic school. Still can not comprehend pedophiles being moved from parish to parish in search of new victims. And Bishops helping along the way ? Plus parishes declaring bankruptcy to not pay the molested ones !

I have known some EVIL dudes in my life. One would even occasionally do " a piece of work" when needed. But none of them ever hurt a child, other than perhaps making them an orphan.

I just meant in terms of the, "In Moderation," Philosophy with respect to all things legal. IMO, it kicks the Hell out of being a Mormon.

Quote: Mission146

I just meant in terms of the, "In Moderation," Philosophy with respect to all things legal. IMO, it kicks the Hell out of being a Mormon.

Talk about self flagellation, numerous wives ??

Quote: buzzpaff

Talk about self flagellation, numerous wives ??

The latter is illegal. I'm talking smoking, drinking, gambling...with being a Catholic.

Mormons technically are not even allowed to drink caffeine.

" Mormons technically are not even allowed to drink caffeine. "

Priests technically are not even allowed to molest children.

Quote: buzzpaff

Still can not comprehend pedophiles being moved from parish to parish in search of new victims. And Bishops helping along the way ? Plus parishes declaring bankruptcy to not pay the molested ones !

Gee, I guess them Priests are similar to Doctors who move medical personnel around but don't want to make waves... only to have some transferred nurse later poison a helpless tot... but do it somewhere else.

>But none of them ever hurt a child, other than perhaps making them an orphan.
Thats odd. Most hitmen are perfectly willing to kill women and children.... they just charge more for it, thats all.

" Thats odd. Most hitmen are perfectly willing to kill women and children.... they just charge more for it, thats all. "

Your reference ??

Quote: buzzpaff

" Thats odd. Most hitmen are perfectly willing to kill women and children.... they just charge more for it, thats all. "

Your reference ??

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/

Well, I don't know if they charge more, but they certainly seem willing to kill anyone.

S o do extreme muslims, they will kill you for free, infidel.