desertair
desertair
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October 1st, 2011 at 5:54:34 PM permalink
What are you guys' opinion on tribal gaming in general? To clarify, I mean casinos (excluding bingo halls, although that is still a form of gambling) on Native American reservations. As we've all seen, within the past 20 years or so there has been a huge investment by the larger tribes to build Vegas-style casinos that offer similar accommodations. I live in Oklahoma City and one of the big ones here, Riverwind Casino, has lately been running commercials saying you can get EVERYTHING Vegas in their casino (trust me, you can't).

In particular, what are your thoughts on the "sovereign nation" aspect of it, to the extent that many tribes are self-regulating when it comes to slots and video poker?

To offer my initial opinion, and to be completely frank, I stopped wasting my time at Indian casinos after I _attempted_ to find the regulating body over the industry. Unlike the NGCB in NV, OK gives each tribe the power to regulate itself, as if that isn't a complete conflict of interest. I used to frequent the Indian casinos quite a bit, but now I just save up my gambling funds for my yearly trek to the LV strip.
EvenBob
EvenBob
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October 1st, 2011 at 6:05:43 PM permalink
Quote: desertair

To offer my initial opinion, and to be completely frank, I stopped wasting my time at Indian casinos



OK has more Indian casinos than any other state,
but I believe none of them offer craps or roulette. So
they don't offer what Vegas does, far from it. In MI,
if I took you to Soaring Eagle or Four Winds, you
couldn't tell the difference between them and Vegas,
except no free drinks. As far as I can tell, the regulations
are the same. I hear FL casinos suck, because the laws
are different there, they can really screw with you and
you have no recourse.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Doc
Doc
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October 1st, 2011 at 6:15:27 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

OK has more Indian casinos than any other state,
but I believe none of them offer craps or roulette.


This raises a point that I have never understood. Perhaps someone hear can clear this up for me.

Who/what is it that prohibits so many tribal casinos from having roulette and craps? I first thought that none of them had those games. Then I played craps at Avi, and someone said they could have craps there because it was allowed in non-tribal casinos in the state. Then I played craps at both Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun, and I don't know of any non-tribal casinos in CT. Are there just a large number of states that independently sign contracts with the tribes allowing other games but banning those two, or is there some coordinated policy that isn't quite universal?
desertair
desertair
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October 1st, 2011 at 6:16:29 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

OK has more Indian casinos than any other state,
but I believe none of them offer craps or roulette.




Hi Bob,

I am glad you mentioned that. There is a very large casino near Shawnee, OK called Firelake Grand that has a card-based variant of craps and roulette. The (outdated) gambling laws in OK prohibit the use of dice or roulette balls, so the casino devised a way around the law.

For the craps, they use a standard craps table but instead of the player throwing dice, they draw cards which have a picture of one of the 6 sides of a dice on it. I think it's rather pitiful and takes away from the magic of craps, but is not a bad way to improvise.

For roulette, they use a modified roulette wheel which has holders for cards with the numerical value on them (we'll assume 38 cards for a 00 wheel). The players place the bets on the standard roulette table, and the dealer spins the "wheel" until the picker stops at a position and the card is pulled.

I really wish I could find some way to take a video or picture of it because I've never seen anything like it.
desertair
desertair
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October 1st, 2011 at 6:19:19 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

This raises a point that I have never understood. Perhaps someone hear can clear this up for me.

Who/what is it that prohibits so many tribal casinos from having roulette and craps? I first thought that none of them had those games. Then I played craps at Avi, and someone said they could have craps there because it was allowed in non-tribal casinos in the state. Then I played craps at both Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun, and I don't know of any non-tribal casinos in CT. Are there just a large number of states that independently sign contracts with the tribes allowing other games but banning those two, or is there some coordinated policy that isn't quite universal?



Hi Doc,

Please see the following article...


"The joke is actually funnier than you think; while traditional dice games like craps are common in casinos around the world, the California Penal Code prohibits any casino game from being determined exclusively by dice or balls."

http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-06-16/entertainment/29664177_1_three-cards-dice-craps


The same law exists in OK and I'm sure in many other states.
EvenBob
EvenBob
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October 1st, 2011 at 6:32:11 PM permalink
Quote: desertair

The players place the bets on the standard roulette table, and the dealer spins the "wheel" until the picker stops at a position and the card is pulled.I really wish I could find some way to take a video or picture of it because I've never seen anything like it.



OMG, that sounds like something from Vegas Vacation
when Chevy Chase goes to that 'alternative' casino. How
do people play it without laughing..
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Face
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Face
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October 1st, 2011 at 6:37:52 PM permalink
Quote: desertair

Unlike the NGCB in NV, OK gives each tribe the power to regulate itself...



Really? As in OK has no presense whatsoever in the casino and has no part in overseeing the operation? That is curious, indeed. We (Seneca) are self-regulating, but we have a State counterpart, basically folks with identical job descriptions but with different employers (Tribe vs State).

I'm not a wiz at gaming laws, but if some, any or all of them are at a Federal level, the tribe would still have to follow them (same as Fed tax, ATF laws, etc). "Sovereignty" only excludes them from State law. So, if slot holds and VP paytables are Federally regulated, then tribal games should be no different than any other casino's (other than personal decisions of exactly where in the scale to place them).

"Everything Vegas" lol that's rich. If "everything" to you means 3:2, Roulette, Craps, etc, then us too. If "everything" means nightlife, the culture, the XXX girls, the lights, the cartoonish-acid-trippy vibe that is Vegas, then no. Marketing's funny ain't it? ;)
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EvenBob
EvenBob
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October 1st, 2011 at 6:39:20 PM permalink
I believe OK has more tribes because thats where the
gov't sent the Indians in the 1800's.

"The Trail of Tears is a name given to the relocation and movement of Native American nations from southeastern parts of the United States following the Indian Removal Act of 1830. The removal included many members of the Cherokee, Muscogee (Creek), Seminole, and Choctaw nations, among others in the United States, from their homelands to Indian Territory (eastern sections of the present-day state of Oklahoma)."
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Doc
Doc
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October 1st, 2011 at 6:41:43 PM permalink
Quote: desertair

Please see the following article... "... the California Penal Code prohibits any casino game from being determined exclusively by dice or balls."

Thanks for the link. The article claims that craps and roulette are prohibited because they are games of chance while cards are permitted because they are games of skill.

I have played several variants of card craps. Does anyone think that card craps is a game of skill? If so, how? (And I don't mean that variant where counting is possible.)

For that matter, do gaming authorities consider baccarat to be a game of skill? (I know some players do, but I'm talking about people who are supposed to be rational.)
Face
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Face
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October 1st, 2011 at 7:15:02 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

Thanks for the link. The article claims that craps and roulette are prohibited because they are games of chance while cards are permitted because they are games of skill.

I have played several variants of card craps. Does anyone think that card craps is a game of skill? If so, how? (And I don't mean that variant where counting is possible.)

For that matter, do gaming authorities consider baccarat to be a game of skill? (I know some players do, but I'm talking about people who are supposed to be rational.)



This premise always makes me laugh. BJ is a game of skill? What skill? Reading? If they didn't allow strategy cards, maybe, but...

Three Card Poker - stay in with Q/6/4 or better. Is it a skill to remember this?

This isn't a slight on the players of these games, just an observation of legal ridiculousness. Craps is chance but Bac is skill....how?

Silliness, I tell ya.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.

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