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Diogenes
Diogenes
Joined: Aug 29, 2016
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February 15th, 2019 at 12:52:03 PM permalink
What do we know? We know the shuffler recognizes the cards. We know the shuffler can reorder the cards.

It isn't necessary to "rig" every hand. It is only necessary to arrange the cards to maintain a hi-low count near zero. Look at Patent US6299167 /patent/US6299167B1/en and you will find:

"Another problem area suffered by both manual and automated shuffling techniques is associated with having concentrated sequences of cards. These concentrations or “slugs” most often occur with respect to cards having a value of 10, such as in playing blackjack. A skilled card counting gambler can take advantage of such card slugs to turn the odds against the casino and in favor of the card counter. Such slugs also indicate the failure of prior art shufflers to in fact effectively rearrange the order of cards in a deck or decks being shuffled."

When you "REARRANGE THE ORDER", the cards are not randomly shuffled.

Shufflers are now designed to keep the count near zero.
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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Thanks for this post from:
Forager
February 15th, 2019 at 1:07:11 PM permalink
Quote: Diogenes

What do we know? We know the shuffler recognizes the cards. We know the shuffler can reorder the cards.

It isn't necessary to "rig" every hand. It is only necessary to arrange the cards to maintain a hi-low count near zero. Look at Patent US6299167 /patent/US6299167B1/en and you will find:

"Another problem area suffered by both manual and automated shuffling techniques is associated with having concentrated sequences of cards. These concentrations or “slugs” most often occur with respect to cards having a value of 10, such as in playing blackjack. A skilled card counting gambler can take advantage of such card slugs to turn the odds against the casino and in favor of the card counter. Such slugs also indicate the failure of prior art shufflers to in fact effectively rearrange the order of cards in a deck or decks being shuffled."

When you "REARRANGE THE ORDER", the cards are not randomly shuffled.

Shufflers are now designed to keep the count near zero.



Sorry, but you're wrong.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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February 15th, 2019 at 2:16:31 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Sorry, but you're wrong.


ZCore13



https://patents.google.com/patent/US5431399A/en

1. It may be the desire of the participants in a bridge session to constrain the random distribution of cards. For example, they may wish to primarily produce hands that will produce game bids, or hands that favor no-trump bidding, or hands that have unusual distributions, etc. Or they might wish to establish a constraint that both pairs in the game will, over the course of the session, receive approximately the same number of "high cards".

f) to provide for operation in a variety of different modalities (e.g., to produce random distributions, or distributions subject to certain constraints, or specific distributions).

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION
The present invention provides a means for (a) shuffling and distributing cards in a random manner, or (b) distributing cards in a predetermined manner. The device is intended to operate with ordinary "bridge-size" cards. In addition to a deck of cards, the system will have a small number of cards called "program" cards. While the same size as ordinary playing cards, these cards are specially encoded so as to indicate to the device in what modality it should operate. For example, one such program card could be an instruction to the device to randomly distribute a deck of cards (hereinafter referred to as the "random" distribution modality). The user would insert into the device an unordered deck of cards with this program card at the bottom. The device would first read the program card; generate internally a random distribution for the hands; and then cause the deck of cards to be distributed appropriately to reflect the desired distribution.

As another example, another program card might be an instruction to generally generate "gamegoing" hands (these are hands where the distribution of high cards is primarily distributed to one pair rather than another, thus allowing them to win most of the tricks). As before, the user would put this program card at the bottom of the deck. The device would read the program card; then generate internally a quasi-random distribution subject to the constraint that the high cards be appropriately allocated to one of the two pairs; and then distribute the cards. We note that the program card need not be passed through the machine each time a new distribution of cards is desired; the modality of the prior distribution will be continued unless overridden by a subsequent program card. (This modality is referred to hereafter as the "restricted" distribution modality).

In addition to distribution along these lines (random or restricted), the other modality can be called predetermined In this case an exact distribution is desired. A program card can be prepared that indicates how every card in a particular hand is to be distributed. That card is placed at the bottom of the deck; the device reads it and then uses that information to distribute the balance of the cards. A variant of this modality is the duplicate bridge game where there would a shuffling/distribution device at each table. In this case it is (generally) not important for particular distributions to be created, but it is important that the totality of hands for the session be identical whenever played (the table at which hands are played, and the pairs playing them will vary). This could be accomplished by "seeding" the random generator for each device to the same value; then whatever hands were generated to constitute the hands for the session would be the same from table to table. Seeding could proceed by following a "seeding" program card with a randomly mixed set (or subset) of playing cards; the sequence of those cards would establish an initial value for the random generation function. After being read by one device, the seeding program card and randomly mixed set of playing cards could be moved to another machine, and the process repeated there. Alternatively, the removable memory means in the device could be programmed with the desired distributions prior to the start of the session.

After the system determines a desired distribution the system operates to distribute the cards. Two embodiments of the current invention are described herein: (a) the four-way system, and (b) the lateral system.

Sorry, but YOU are wrong.
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
  • Threads: 39
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February 15th, 2019 at 2:25:53 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap



Sorry, but YOU are wrong.



A pending or issued patent does not mean the technology is in use. From personal experience, reviewing third party certifications, knowing the safeties put in place so chips cant be replaced and knowing the capabilities of the machines in action, I can 100% guarantee you it is not. You on the other hand have nothing. No experience. No gaming knowledge. No facts.

So, not sorry anymore, but you are wrong.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
Joined: Apr 11, 2010
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February 15th, 2019 at 5:13:53 PM permalink
There is a big difference between a bridge card dealing machine and a casino quality shuffler. I have a lot of experience with both machines.

The bridge machine does not shuffle at all, it puts the cards into 4 hands. It can be done randomly, or it can be programmed to come up with many different scenarios. That is what the machine is made to do. It retails for about $4000 and is not GLI certified.

Shuffle Master products are made to be random. The price tag on those is about 6-7 times what the Dealer4 Bridge machine costs. They are certified by GLI and nobody has proven that there is any funny business going on. If you like, go ahead and buy one. See if you can make it shuffle in a non-random fashion.

I do not work for ShuffleMaster, and I am not a shareholder in Scientific Games, their parent company.
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
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February 15th, 2019 at 5:20:36 PM permalink
They say you can lose 1000 hands in Blackjack. Just didn't think it could happen in one day. Maybe you can win many times what you lost when your luck turns.
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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February 15th, 2019 at 7:05:32 PM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

There is a big difference between a bridge card dealing machine and a casino quality shuffler. I have a lot of experience with both machines.

The bridge machine does not shuffle at all, it puts the cards into 4 hands. It can be done randomly, or it can be programmed to come up with many different scenarios. That is what the machine is made to do. It retails for about $4000 and is not GLI certified.

Shuffle Master products are made to be random. The price tag on those is about 6-7 times what the Dealer4 Bridge machine costs. They are certified by GLI and nobody has proven that there is any funny business going on. If you like, go ahead and buy one. See if you can make it shuffle in a non-random fashion.

I do not work for ShuffleMaster, and I am not a shareholder in Scientific Games, their parent company.



I forgot the last part of the patent, of which I didn’t forget in the post that I copied from but the end of the patent says that it’s not limited to bridge I also see in the patent that it can be completely random I’m just highlighting the words that say that they can place the winning hands in any body’s position and it works with the lateral version of the shuffler
MaxPen
MaxPen
Joined: Feb 4, 2015
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ZenKinG
February 15th, 2019 at 10:35:31 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Sorry, but you're wrong.


ZCore13



You must get paid a bounty by these shuffle machine manufacturers.
You're like the fastest rebuttal of such activities in the West.
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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February 15th, 2019 at 11:11:00 PM permalink
Quote: MaxPen

You must get paid a bounty by these shuffle machine manufacturers.
You're like the fastest rebuttal of such activities in the West.



Yeah, they pay me to watch the forum and protect them as soon as anything gets said. I'm not even sure why I keep my regular job now that I'm making the large money they pay.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.

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